SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

Silu, could you do the calculation for Phood and Meditation with known = 7t and assuming Justy, we, and 2 other AIs know Phood and Meditation?

Edit: I thought Alpha was the one tech AIs will trade as a monopoly tech. Is that not valid for Toku?

 

[Silu]

If I remember the AI's only trade a tech if a certain % of other AI's also know it, for Japan I think this 100%. So if Justinian doesn't have the tech he won't trade it too us regardless of how high our diplo is.

There is an additional tech-dependent factor for that threshold, the 100% is only a baseline. Techs that don't enable military units, non-religious buildings, unbuilt wonders, unbuilt projects or sea exploration units always get 0 as this additional factor. So no AI will ever refuse to trade Alphabet (one of the few techs like this) because of monopoly whine.

Silu, could you do the calculation for Phood and Meditation with known = 7t and assuming Justy, we, and 2 other AIs know Phood and Meditation?

Assuming all Civs Toku knows know PH and Medi.
Assuming Toku has no beakers invested in PH or Medi.

PH = 175p
Medi = 234p

Needed for +4: x / ((7+1)*5) > 4 <=> x > 160p

So PH should be enough to give us three turns of +4. I refuse to take responsibility if this is not so


EDIT: And obviously Alpha is the only tech we could trade for, no chance to get IW from him for example. During those three turns we couldn't get Alpha (with just Math) but at least we would get OB, making it MUCH easier to maintain/regain Pleased.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, I ran a quick test. We've known Toku for 7t and we and 4 AIs know phood. We get +4. Next turn (8t) only +3!

Now, I tested trading for Alpha. He won't do straight CoL for Alpha, but if we put a turn of beakers into Alpha (I put in 30some beakers), he will. We don't need to trade math at all. We can even try not trading Medit, because that's a prereq for bulbing Philo.

 

[Silu]

Ahh. So my math was right but my last remark of 175 over 160 being good for 3 turns was obviously wrong, again since we are talking about FOUR diplo not one. So next turn the amount needed is 180, when we'd only have 175, hence only +3 next turn.

So this means we can't trade for Alpha without either giving him Medi + CoL or waiting. What's our schedule to bulb Philo? If it's coming soon I don't think we need to sit on Meditation. I wouldn't even shed too many tears if we lost the religion from Philo.

 

[mdy]

Trading with Japan looks like it will cost more than it is worth. There is nothing that we could possibly trade for which can't easily be put off for a while.

It looks like the island to the north is isolated. If there is nothing else to explore there we could use that workboat for the clams city and build a granary in the rice city after the current workboat is built.

 

[babybluepants]

Signing OB with him would be good, if for no other reason than having an exploring path for the WB.

Basically, we either get Alpha from him asap, or we have to: a) self-tech it OR b) wait for the other AI's? I think we should take it and deny Meditation if possible. Sounds like we could with a PH gift and some beakers into Alpha?

 

[LowtherCastle]

IW would reveal any iron tiles. Those are good hammer tiles. Alpha also gives us a discount on the remainder of Currency. I say we go for it.

 

[babybluepants]

Well, we should get just Alpha asap, so we can take IW from others, right?

 

[Silu]

Basically, we either get Alpha from him asap, or we have to: a) self-tech it OR b) wait for the other AI's? I think we should take it and deny Meditation if possible. Sounds like we could with a PH gift and some beakers into Alpha?

PH gets us Pleased for 1 turn, so we have no time to put beakers into Alpha (or gift PH and trade for something that has it as a prereq for that matter). Next turn we could but we'll be at Cautious again unless we gift Medi. Right? Personally I don't think sitting on Medi is THAT important so I wouldn't mind.

 

[Mutineer]

hmm...
I hope one of WB is going west soon. we really need to explore that direction..

It would be good to be on a good side of Toky, so gifting him a city look attractive.

Well, I am really do not know mach, if you believe you can get him to pleased with just poly and medi then go for it, but by some reason I never get any + modifiers from cheap tech, unless I gifted them on turn I meat AI. Are you sure about your formula?

 

[babybluepants]

Are we sure we don't get him to pleased with just +3? 'Cause that would give us 11t from meeting with just PH. I don't necessarily mind giving him Medi so much, but wouldn't if we don't need to.

 

[mystyfly]

Definitely go for the alpha-trade. Anything we can get from toku is good for us. I don't see any danger giving him a few techs, I doubt he'll come after us at pleased and when we're on another landmass, and if he did, would it be that bad? IMO we can but gain from dealing with him. I would rather not trade currency to him once we have it though as it is a major economic tech for big empires like his.


Still none of the AIs we know built any wonder. Do note however that the founder of judaism most likely built SH as he already built the temple of salomon.

I think after the worker currently being built at bombay, we're fine that way. Ivory city can whip its own that gets shipped off back to the mainland when our galley is free.

Not sure about that sugar island, let's hope we find more seafood as the fish is designed for our horse city... I do think btw that zara will not settle that spot given our cultural presence in that general area.

In 3t Delhis first hamlet becomes a village, with commerce and science multipliers, its actually +4 beakers

How is the rest of your set looking like, MM wise, LC?

edit: and what about our lone missionary? I think we should use it now, we're paying 6gpt after all and the longer we wait the smaller the chance of actually converting anyone. We could still use it for one of our cities like twofish, in anticipation of pacifism.

 

[mystyfly]

Some pics (for shyuhe and others):

That last one with the graphs doesn't look so good... we're top in GNP but had a big hole when rushing the mids, food is looking ok and production is not so good considering the graph but considering the it's quite fine

 

[Silu]

Are we sure we don't get him to pleased with just +3? 'Cause that would give us 11t from meeting with just PH. I don't necessarily mind giving him Medi so much, but wouldn't if we don't need to.

Well, the threshold is +3, and we have -2 hidden hate (peaceweight, Toku blanket hate), and I don't think we have hidden bonuses with us both being in the top2 scorewise. So we'd need +5 total. Of course we don't need to really commit to this since we can just gift PH, put some beakers into Alpha for next turn, and then gift Medi if he did drop to Cautious and then make the trade.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay. We'll go for OBs+Alpha from Toku, hoping the +4 lasts another turn. Fewer than 4 AIs may know PH. Otherwise he gets Medit next turn.

Now there's the question of the Ivory wkr that mysty raised. My plan is not set up for settling on the plains ivory, which is a miniGloryLand. If we get it, it'll one of our best production sites and is a great target for Moai. Would we send a wkr there or build one? Where would its 2 wbs come from? Would it just beeline granary-lh-Moai?

I ran some tests on the gran-lh-Moai beeline, units coming from the mainland, nets-nets-camp versus nets-mine-nets (much better than nets-camp). On T160, mine first is +27f and +18h ahead. The real problem, though, is having the galley available to transport the worker. Zara settles the sugar in all my tests, so that's a priority for us.

nets-nets-camp
The earliest the galley can pick up the sugar settler is T132. In this case, the worker transports to Ivory Island on T140. This requires clam nets on T138 and the camp is done 3t late, costing only 3h, nothing else. Both wbs come from Oasis and arrive 1t early, giving us flexibility with civic changes.

nets-mine-nets
Or we can transport our worker on T126, with the galley picking up the sugar settler on T133. In this case, we need the clam nets on T144/45. It also means the wkr leaves Delhi a turn or two from NOW, depending on what roads Zara has, which our warrior could find out. This wkr would be done improving/roading on T155, assuming the desert is useless. Hunting is not needed until around T141, allowing us to build more warriors. This variant leaves the galley free to go to the west after dropping off the sugar settler, if need be. This variant also allows us to develop Oasis better, not needing to chop the clams wb, so Oasis gets a granary sooner.

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[mystyfly]

I didn't run any tests but I would probably start with a WB, whip it, overflow into worker but regrow while building another WB; whip it, regrow on moai to pop2, finish worker and build moai. That city neither needs WB nor workers from anywhere; it is capable to develop itself in a short amount of time, with the whip and fast regrowth from fish/clams. Worker is built even without the whip fast with all the food surplus. Using a WB or the galley to transport a worker is a waste imo, we need our workers on the mainland and later on the sugar island (and there we'll need lots of worker turns...). I agree that settling sugar is big priority and the galley shouldn't make any detours.

Since we're all agreed on the trade(s) with toku, you might as well go ahead and play until you settle ivory city, LC Or are there any disagreements?

 

[mdy]

I am also inclined to let the ivory city build all that it needs, so that Oasis City remains free to support the clams city.

I assume we will need to whip another settler in order to beat Zara to the sugar site?

Why are our espionage points focussed on Zara? Wouldn't gaining access to Spain/Japan's demographics be more useful?

 

[mystyfly]

Why are our espionage points focussed on Zara? Wouldn't gaining access to Spain/Japan's demographics be more useful?

LC said in his report that he was hoping to steal from zara. I agree that demos are useful but I think right now it doesn't help us much if we know their demos but stealing techs early is much more useful than later due to the cost involved. Getting access to the civ's demos later in the game is easy and done in a few turns. I'm happy with focusing EPs on zara for now (though this has not been discussed).

 

[LowtherCastle]

We need to balance our REX+exploration+research+DelhiCottages with having 6 libs/unis for Oxford. Right now we have:
1. Delhi
2. Bombay
3. Two Fish
4. Marble
5. Rice
6. Oasis
Of those, Oasis is clearly the worst/slowest. Rice is not much better, but could sacrifice itself with poprushing. Ivory with Moai ~T174 is superlative.

I tested your idea, mysty, and got these results:

1. Ivory self-doer
T160: pop3; 15/39 +7fpt; Moai 84/375 +6hpt; 2 nets; no wkr; no gran; no lh

2. Ivory with 1 fish net from Oasis
T160: pop3; 14/39 +7fpt; Moai 84/375; 2 nets; 1 wkr; 1 camp; 1 mine; no gran; no lh

My conjecture is that in neither case will Moai be done in time to help with Oxford.

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EDIT: I see that earlier I didn't give T160 stats.

3. Ivory nets-nets-camp
T160: pop4; 35/42 +8fpt; Moai 98/375 +14hpt; 2 nets; 1wkr; 1 camp; 2 mines; 3 rds; gran; lh

4. Ivory nets-mine-nets-
T160: pop5; 41/45 +7fpt; Moai 134/375 +20hpt; 2 nets; 1wkr; 1 camp; 2 mines; 3 rds; gran; lh

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Oasis, on the other hand, after building 2 wbs for Ivory, quickly builds its granary and is growing, making farms, and building plenty of wbs for Marble and the Horse/Sugar fish. Rice is also helping out. And btw, Marble does not need the wbs all that soon anyway.

To me, sending the worker+2 wbs to Ivory is a no-brainer. The challenge is to do that and still grow Delhi, build the Sugar settler quickly, and turn Bombay into a setter pump, basically with one worker less than my turnset plan envisioned. I think it's doable.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Since we're all agreed on the trade(s) with toku, you might as well go ahead and play until you settle ivory city, LC Or are there any disagreements?

If you could bear with me just a little bit longer... We really need to know where any iron might be, so hopefully we'll be able to play two more turns and still leave all our options open.

I'd like to test the worker-to-Ivory variant a bit more. That's T+1 or T+2, I think. It's rather complicated logistics, especially the ensuing consequences of improving Rice/Marble/Delhi/Sugar. So I'll focus on whether we can play up to acquiring IW (if we can...).

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Okay, we can play one turn for sure, so we'll see what happens with Toku...

Updated turnset report

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We needed Phood+Medit to get to Pleased, signed OBs. Can get IW+Htg for Math but not Alpha. Moving right along...