SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[Silu]

Toku trades IW? That's unexpected. Remember the baseline monopoly thres of 100% includes US so normally he has monopoly whine on everything as he would only trade us stuff we already know. But really nice to get Alpha already, GJ on spotting that opportunity.

 

[shyuhe]

Finally back with civ access I'll try to read through the mountain of posts and see if I can offer any intelligent comments

 

[babybluepants]

Why would we have to wait a turn for Writing / Poly? edit: nevermind I'd go for that trade - might as well - then Math / IW with Zara.

I don't see why we wouldn't send a worker to Ivory, btw. Should get a couple of hammer improvements asap. I see that as our 6th Oxford city, rather than Oasis.

 

[Mutineer]

If there is opportunity to trade Poly, take it. We want Monotheism, as we can Use Org religion.
So, If you can trade writing for Poly, do it.

 

[mystyfly]

Another question regarding poly: Do we want to tech aest > lit after currency and thus persue GL as well as focusing on NE? I think this is best as we really neglected GPP so far...

 

[Mutineer]

I do not think we want to tech aust/literature.

We really do not have anywhere to build it, Unless you thinking about ivory city, it has good production base, easy to develop.

I believe we will benefit more from generating GPP in our new cities in Castle and reseachinf paper/education. with help of bulbs.

Why?

With cheap Unis + Oxward in capital look very attractive.

we will go after Astronomy/Sci method very fast, I think GL will absolute very shortly after we build it.

Edit: Can you upload new save?

 

[mystyfly]

Ivory won't be set up by the time GL is an option.

GL isn't that expensive, we have marble.

There are 2 alternatives to aest>lit: Edu and optics.

I don't think optics is still high priority with lots of the AIs met and likely more to be met soon. Plus by not teching machinery we can partbulb lib to make good use of our GS.

Edu requires 3 GS while we tech paper, I don't think we'll get those 3 GS in time, and while we're waiting we'll tech anything else anyway, so why not tech aest > lit first, those aren't expensive and are great trading chips.

 

[mdy]

Another question regarding poly: Do we want to tech aest > lit after currency and thus persue GL as well as focusing on NE? I think this is best as we really neglected GPP so far...

The best way to get GPP is to run specialists in 2 fish/clam. We don't really have the spare production to build the Great Library.

If we can get polytheism and iron working in trades I am all for it.

We should have no trouble building a university in Oasis. 6 turns production and a 2 turn whip should do it. The limitation on getting Oxford will be the time taken to generate the GS needed to bulb education. We will need 3, the easiest way to do this looks like generating 2 in 2 fish and 1 in the clams city. To do this we will need to develop the clams site fairly quickly which means sending workboats/workers there at the expense of the ivory site. This will delay it's development but the clams site is much more important for our civ.

LC said in his report that he was hoping to steal from zara.

What techs could we possibly steal from Zara that:
1) We could afford.
2) Are useful.
3) We couldn't easily trade for.

 

[mystyfly]

The best way to get GPP is to run specialists in 2 fish/clam. We don't really have the spare production to build the Great Library.

NE still is very powerful, especially since it looks like we wont spend that much time in pacifism.

What techs could we possibly steal from Zara that:
1) We could afford.
2) Are useful.
3) We couldn't easily trade for.

Whichever we don't tech ourselves like MC or aest. Or other techs like calendar or later drama or HR or ... techs that aren't that high on our list. That is a gamble however as we can't influence what zara is teching and it might be a loooong time until we get anything useful. I repeat, we didn't have a consensus on focusing EPs on zara. IMO we can leave it like that.

 

[babybluepants]

Why do we need 3 GS for Educ? We already burned one on Math, and we need 4 spares. I'd bulb Philo and part-bulb Educ with one. We're a touch late on generating those GS, anyway, whereas we should have a pretty decent base rate. It should be ok when Two Fish gets rolling, assuming we can run a longish spell of Caste and later Pac. Overall, I'd vote for Paper-Educ asap, but Aest-Lit is actually quite cheap to unlock NE... Not sure. We should evaluate our research pace more carefully when we're done Currency, I think.

I'd switch EP, as well. Zara doesn't even have Writing yet and he won't speed up much. Anything we steal from him will be marginal and we'll be in position to easily trade for it.

 

[Mutineer]

Why we need to generate 3 GS for education? Even with Philosophy LB 2 is enough.

We are not harry to discover liberalism.

NE is not that powerful for as and why we will not spend a lot of time in pacifism?

We have innate +100% GP generation, that mean Ne add addition 100% (Only 50% increase).

If we running pacifism Ne add only 33 %, if we running golden age Ne add only 25%.

But right now it is too early to discuss That in my opinion, let see what future hold.

 

[Mutineer]

On other hand, if we traded Col out, may be we should keep math monopoly and trade Col for other thinks too.

NO reason to give AI opportunity to trade Col for mach to each other...

This is thinks we need to discuss now, not go into far away think and distract as from what we want to achieve NOW!

 

[mystyfly]

I think we'll not be long in pac due to the religious differences present. Pac requires a SR which limits flexibility as we need to spread that religion to the GPP-Cities.

At some point we said we'd doublebulb edu though I prefer to just singlebulb it. This looks like our new consensus...

 

[Mutineer]

We can leave with religions differences. Toky, biggest AI has small religion modifier.

One thin which my believe is urgent is spreading our religion to Issy.

Arguments again that are very week, but in order to make my point I will have to go into the future.

Remember our winning conditions?

All AI running state religion. We intend to win by diplomacy..

We have plan A) We do it fast enough so NO AI adopt free religion.

But in Case is one did we need to have plan B.
So, what is our plan B and what it will demand?

Our plan B is to use spy to force AI into religion. In order to achieve that we need

a) Run religion ourself.
b) AI has to have minimum 1 city with that religion.

At same time we want AI to vote for as. Well, Theocracy is very popular favorite civic it seem.

with it bonus, so long as we do not have negatives and have some other + we can guaranty votes. But most of AI's are religion nutters. So, if we adopt some other religion, we can expect big religion -.

Solution, force AI we want to vote for as to same religion.
In order to have this option we need for every AI to have one of religion.

It is difficult to see that we can get that with any religion but our own.

So, we need to spread our religion to each AI.

who will be most difficult? Issy.

We want to run religion civic and Issy is the biggest religion nut.

So, we need to use this opportunity to do so, later opportunity cost will be huge.

Next one is Toky, but Toky is mach less influence by religion.

again, we need exploration, so we know can we gift pre-spread religion to him?
(Build city, spread our religion and gift it to him).. guaranty long term diplomatic +

 

[shyuhe]

I haven't had a chance to look at the save yet but my big pictures thoughts:

The VC is indeed going to be a bit harder than originally anticipated because of the state religion requirement. However, we do NOT need to be in a state religion on the turn that votes are cast. If we time things correctly, we can have the voting take place while we are in theocracy with no state religion, then swap to a state religion during the inter-turn so that we achieve victory while in a religion. This means we need to be careful with the timing of our religious revolts but I doubt that'll be too much of an issue.

On the upside, it looks like we'll be able to wage war without incurring -1 declaring on friend penalties. So we can potentially vassal two civs (and maybe peacevassal Zara), at which point it won't really matter if Izzy will vote for us or not as it's likely we'll have enough votes to win the election ourselves. Basically we need to assign two victims, one buddy to vote for us, and one hated civ to be our opponent. Izzy may make a good opponent since she's hard to please unless you have her religion. Zara may be a buddy to vote for us, but he won't provide us with many votes so we'll probably need a better buddy candidate.

Delhi at size 4 needs to get corrected, but I probably need to see where we stand on expansion etc. before I can say anything intelligent about that.

 

[shyuhe]

double post Guess I'm still rusty.

 

[LowtherCastle]

925BC save uploaded. Sry, I got waylaid.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 950 BC to 925 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn 122, 950 BC: Delhi can hurry Warrior for 1? with 14? overflow, 37? added to the treasury, and +1? for 23 turns.
Turn 122, 950 BC: Bombay can hurry Fast Worker for 1? with 12? overflow and +1? for 15 turns.
Turn 122, 950 BC: Oasis has grown to size 2.
Turn 122, 950 BC: Oasis can hurry Galley for 1? with 20? overflow and +1? for 15 turns.
Turn 122, 950 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Rice.
Turn 122, 950 BC: You have trained a Galley in Oasis. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.

Turn 123, 925 BC: Tokugawa will trade Alphabet, Hunting, Iron Working
Turn 123, 925 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 123, 925 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Delhi.
Turn 123, 925 BC: Two Fish will grow to size 3 on the next turn.

 

[shyuhe]

LC - do you mind posting an F4 tech shot? Also, are you done for now or are you going to play a few more turns once we figure out where we're going?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I was planning to play a normal turnset (15t on epic).

 

[shyuhe]

Sure that's fine I'm still trying to catch up on all I missed from not actually being able to open a save, so you'll have to excuse me if my comments sound funny

Do we want to try trading for IW with Zara? We can gift him writing this turn and probably pick up IW for alpha next turn - just not sure if it'll have a negative impact on diplo.