SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

I am fine with that.. with currency (2 trade route*2=4 + city tie we recover 5 straight away.
Make first citizen just specialists + 3 research.. so, I do not see problem.
 
It's not about cottage #2. It's about cottage #4, 5, 6, 7, and 8. As soon as cottage #2 is a village, that citizen is free to work cottage #3, and so on.

At the rate we are growing we aren't going to have a choice about which cottages to work after the next few turns (and as I already pointed out the existing hamlet will have already have become a village before printing press whatever we do, so we may as well work the village). The only way this could ever become an issue is if we assigned an additional worker to the capital to build improvements faster than we are growing, and we don't have any spare workers.
 
The mystery AI theory being behind Izzy is pretty reasonable. The other scenario is that the mystery AI was the founder of Judaism behind Saladin, and somehow contacted Zara early. Not sure if that's really possible though - east is more likely than west here.

As for the cottages, man that's a lot of math. I'm still trying to make sense of it myself. I never really thought about the impact of a 1 coin increase on rounding :lol: But I thought beakers are first aggregated across the entire empire and then rounded? Or am I thinking of the wrong issue here? :confused:

As for the dyes, I think we've close to reaching a resolution on it. Mutineer - are you ok if we proceed more along the original plan of not settling the dye, with the added caveat that we will try to aggressively court Izzy in hopes of trading dyes with her?
 
As for the cottages, man that's a lot of math. I'm still trying to make sense of it myself. I never really thought about the impact of a 1 coin increase on rounding :lol: But I thought beakers are first aggregated across the entire empire and then rounded? Or am I thinking of the wrong issue here? :confused:
You're right, which means that the precise differences in Delhi that mysty is describing don't actually create the +4b this turn. For us this turn, at 100% research, the village gives us 84b overall, the hamlet gives us 81b overall. All our cities would have to allign perfectly to really get the max, and that's usually not a matter of our MM.

You don't really need to get a headache about it though. You can just fiddle around in your save (for this or any game your playing) and see what happens, without concerning yourself about the mechanics.
 
mdy said:
At the rate we are growing we aren't going to have a choice about which cottages to work after the next few turns (and as I already pointed out the existing hamlet will have already have become a village before printing press whatever we do, so we may as well work the village). The only way this could ever become an issue is if we assigned an additional worker to the capital to build improvements faster than we are growing, and we don't have any spare workers.
IMO the choice which cottage/hamlet/whatever to work is to get as few commerce above the x*8 pack. Say we are making 33C, we should switch a village to a hamlet if possible. It has nothing to do with PP, it's just about avoiding losses to rounding. It would be nice if we found some workerturns to build 1-2 more cottages at delhi.

@shyuhe: Commerce/science/etc is calculated city by city. First there's the amount of raw commerce. Apply any multipliers (like buerocracy) on them. Then there's the slider. For an example, we're having 20% science, 10% culture and 70% wealth (like during a war) and the city is producing 100 modified commerce. This means the 100 commerce is converted into 20b, 10c and 70g. In this step, rounding (down) occurs. Then you add any raw beakers/gold/culture (like from specialists). Then the city's research/gold/culture-modifiers are applied. Again, rounding occurs. Please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong here at some point.

Since we're in buero and thus have a commerce bonus, the game is rounding down twice. If we are avoiding ANY rounding loss, we are making a multiple of 8 commerce since +50% (buero) creates an integer (multiple of 12) which is dividable by 4 as we're having +75% on research atm. Again we're not losing anything to rounding.


Our current situation:

Spoiler :
delhi1.gif


delhi2.gif


We're producing 63 beakers at 100% in Delhi when working the village. We're making 24 base commerce:
Code:
TR   Palace   Corns   City Tile   Silver   Village
 3  +   8   +   2   +      1     +   6   +   4       = 24

With buero that's 36 modified commerce.

With 100% science slider that's 36 raw beakers.

With the 75% research bonus from academy and library this is 63 modified beakers.

Now assuming we're working the hamlet:

We are making 23 base commerce

Code:
TR   Palace   Corns   City Tile   Silver   Hamlet
 3  +   8   +   2   +      1     +   6   +   3       = 23

With buero that's 34.5 modified commerce. We already lose half a coin to rounding.

With 100% science slider that's 34 raw beakers (compared to the 36 with the village).

With the 75% research bonus from academy and library this is 59.5 beakers, rounded down to 59.

Now let's assume we're making 25 base commerce, 1 more than we are making now, be that due to a better trade route or whatever:

25 * 1.5 = 37.5 -> 37 modified commerce

37 * 1.75 = 64.75 -> 64 modified beakers, gaining nothing from our multipliers we're not already gaining!!

Now, with 26 base commerce:

26 * 1.5 = 39 modified commerce, no loss to rounding as amount of base commerce is even

39 * 1.75 = 68.25 -> 68 modified beakers, with minimal loss to rounding.

... this could go on and on. Point is, only if we're producing a multiple of 8 raw commerce are we not losing anything to rounding.

To make this MM more effective, low-commerce tiles should be prioritized during 0%-science as we're having research but no gold multipliers.



While I think most probably know this more or less, I am writing this all down to emphasize how much can be gained (or lost) with a little MM. Going through every city, every turn is given anyway, this is just one more thing to check on such a tour through the cities. Since we want every cottage to be a town one day, it is more efficient if we don't just work the first cottage until it's a town, then the next, and so on, but to keep this rounding and multiplier stuff in mind.
 
Okay, I've started reworking my turnset plan and there's one issue: the Sugar settler. The galley arrives at the sugar island area around T135-T136. I could have a settler built scheduled for T134 settling on T137. That again involves overflow into the settler, but then the build only takes 2t + 1 chop at the end, because Delhi is pop6.

The Delhi MM is not the issue. The issue is having a worker to develop his land. Do we just let him worry about himself, the way you guys were suggesting for Ivory? I'm talking about the next turnset, not mine.

The thing is, the galley will be there, then it should probably move on to the west to transport some scouting land unit to Sal and beyond.
 
At the rate we are growing we aren't going to have a choice about which cottages to work after the next few turns (and as I already pointed out the existing hamlet will have already have become a village before printing press whatever we do, so we may as well work the village). The only way this could ever become an issue is if we assigned an additional worker to the capital to build improvements faster than we are growing, and we don't have any spare workers.
In my testing for this turnset, what you say is absolutely right.

What you're saying about spare workers, however, is just a choice, it's not a "fact" per se. If our Delhi worker(s) can't keep up with the pop growth there, then we should make it an issue--we need another worker there. Simple as that. Delhi is 3,000,000X more important than Oasis, for example. Farm the wheat and one more tile, then let Oasis dry up, if need be.

Delhi should be the kingpin of our research after PP. It takes 45t to make a village. We're on T125 right now. When will we have PP?

Also, as Delhi grows, it may run into a happiness cap before pop13 (= 9 cottages). If so, then we're likely to be in the situation I'm describing and we should manage it appropriately.
 
Okay, I've started reworking my turnset plan and there's one issue: the Sugar settler.

Can't we delay the sugar island for a while? It is not urgent and we can always close borders if it looks like an AI will get it first. Delhi and Bombay need to grow.
 
WOuldn't closing borders with Zara cut off a lot of trade routes for us? Ivory alone will give us +2c for every city that doesn't have a foreign route with its second trade route.
 
CB in between doesn't cut off trade routes, only if both trade parties are at war with the middle man. Don't ask me why.
 
mdy said:
I agree that we need to start running scientists soon, but running them in Delhi is a big mistake. If we generate both GP's in 2 fish we have a 95% chance of getting 2 scientists. If a third GP comes from the clams soon after the probability of not getting 2 scientists is only 0.2%. This is much better than the odds in Delhi due to GE pollution from the Pyramids.
No, I was just suggesting that we might wanna pop the 750gpp one from Delhi, after the two GS (Philo & Educ). Not sure what you guys think about that. :dunno: It gives us an early shot at a GE, as it's gonna get progressively harder to catch up with Two Fish. Your schedule of pre-1AD Educ gives us about 45t for those two GS. We could roughly run 1 scientist + some turns of another (depending on HG date) for the next 50t without popping the 600 gpp.

LC said:
mdy, I believe the puzzle pieces have all fallen into place. My new conjecture is that Sal, who traded us Mono, was the one to found Judaism (d'oh!), in a second or third city near Toku. Thus, MysteryAI probably has NSR or is Buddhist, and is beyond Izzy, trading Zara corn. MAI also has the GW, which might not be insignificant if he is to Izzy's north, because he'd repel any remaining barbs toward the south, where our warrior/settler would be going. Depends on how big that landmass is. Anyway...
That's it. :) Makes sense. Then it could still be Roosevelt. He could have built the GW...
 
Okay, I've started reworking my turnset plan and there's one issue: the Sugar settler. The galley arrives at the sugar island area around T135-T136. I could have a settler built scheduled for T134 settling on T137. That again involves overflow into the settler, but then the build only takes 2t + 1 chop at the end, because Delhi is pop6.

The Delhi MM is not the issue. The issue is having a worker to develop his land. Do we just let him worry about himself, the way you guys were suggesting for Ivory? I'm talking about the next turnset, not mine.

The thing is, the galley will be there, then it should probably move on to the west to transport some scouting land unit to Sal and beyond.

I'm with mdy on this - I don't think we should rush to settle the sugar as we can deny access to it if we see a galley heading towards it from Zara. That city won't be very useful without a worker (or border pop + WB) so I don't think we're in a hurry to settle it right now.
 
What about the galley then? If it doesn't transport a settler then and delivers a scout to Sal's, it arrives back in time to settle Sugar on T150, 13t later. Sugar with a wb needs 15t to build a wkr.
 
What about the galley then? If it doesn't transport a settler then and delivers a scout to Sal's, it arrives back in time to settle Sugar on T150, 13t later. Sugar with a wb needs 15t to build a wkr.

If we started a settler in Bombay at size 3 and put a chop into it we can build a settler there in time for this. As Bombay would only need 1 worker for this the other one assigned there at T133 could go and improve the capital, so we don't have to work unimproved tiles there. The worker assigned to the clams should have finished all the improvements/chops that this city needs by this time, and can therefore be reassigned to the sugar. This looks like the best option to me.

It gives us an early shot at a GE, as it's gonna get progressively harder to catch up with Two Fish. Your schedule of pre-1AD Educ gives us about 45t for those two GS.

Pyramids+Hanging Gardens+Forge+Oxford should be enough to get us a late game GE at higher odds according the analysis I did a couple of hundred posts back. We would probably want to build a forge as soon as we could in order to maximise the GE odds though.

Looking at the test map it looks like we will have enough production to build a temple and market before the Hanging Gardens, and still get the H.G. by 200B.C. Maybe we should consider this to help with the economy/happiness.
 
Turnset Plan T125-T133

Original turnset plan T118-T133
Turnset report T118-T125

Notes: Delhi just finishes the settler, a warrior, and works on the aqueduct. Settler goes to Marble. No Dyes, Horses or Sugar settler.

T125 cont.
Sign OBs with Saladin
Delhi wkr mines Delhi NE

T126
settler mvs toward Marble
Rice wkrs: chop 1E; cottage Rice 1E(1t)
galley 2E, settler disembarks, warrior stays on board
Delhi 1W wkr cottages Delhi 2N(1t); other mines Delhi NE (1t)
Delhi: aque (1t for overflow)

T127
Rice wkrs chop(1t)
Oasis wkr farms wheat
new Bombay wkr chps Bombay S-SW
new Oasis wb goes to Ivory to make fishnets
Ivory settled: granary
galley drops warrior off on Izzy's land
Delhi 2N wkr mines Delhi NE; other chops Delhi 2E (1t)
Delhi: warrior
Bombay: granary
Oasis: granary
2fish 2pops lh
revolt to Castes
Ivory hires an artist

T128
Rice wkr rds rice(1t)
Oasis wkr chops 1E
2fish: library
Delhi E-NE wkr moves toward Aksum
galley moves toward Aksum

T129
Rice wkr rds rice
Rice pop2, hires artist
wkr, warrior board galley
Delhi warrior mvs toward ConfMiss
Delhi: aque

T130
Marble settled, hires artist
Rice wkrs pasture cows(1t)
2fish pop4, works 3f
Marble: granary
wkr, warrior land on western Ivory hill
galley moves toward sugar island

T131
Marble wkr chops 1S(1t)
Ivory lays fish nets, fires artist, works fish
Ivory wkr mines
Delhi pop6, works mine
Delhi wkr cottages Delhi 2N

T132
Marble wkr in forest goes S-SW, cottages(1t)
Wkr at Bombay S-SW cottages Delhi 2N
warrior replaces ConfMiss, who moves to our culture
2nd fish nets in 2fish laid

T133
turnset finished
 
@Mutineer: This was just the plan not (yet) the actual set.

No comments right now to the plan, no civ access atm.
 
When would we get workboats for the clams with this plan? Given our happy cap 2 fish probably can't make good use of the second workboat for a while, perhaps we can use this to develop 2 fish? We could also build another one in Oasis city, getting the clams up and running as a second GP farm/science city should be a priority IMO.
 
Back
Top Bottom