SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[shyuhe]

I'm pretty sure we won't get guilds before mass media given the AI's horrible tech pace. I think the conversion for UN hammers is 12:1 (300% penalty on a 3:1 ratio), so 200ish hammers. So yeah, US+towns+GA may yield more hammers than burning a GM on rushbuy.

 

[mdy]

It looks like we will only have 2 towns on T+40, and even there output would be less than a workshop under a golden age.

 

[babybluepants]

I also don't see how a town beats a workshop, even without Guilds, if there's a 12:1 conversion. Especially if we are thinking of running a golden age.

With golden age:
Grass town = 7 base commerce (River+Cottage+Hamlet+Village+Town+PP+GA) * 1.5 (Bureau) + 1h (US) * 1.5 * 1.5 (OR+Forge) = 10.5c + 2.25h = 3.125h including rush-buy
Grass shop = 3h (WS+Caste+GA) * 1.5 (Bureau)* 1.5 (OR+Forge) = 6.75h

Without golden age:
Grass town = 6 base commerce (River+Cottage+Hamlet+Village+Town+PP) * 1.5 (Bureau) + 1h (US) * 1.5 * 1.5 (OR+Forge) = 9c + 2.25h = 3h including rush-buy
Grass shop = 2h (WS+Caste) * 1.5 (Bureau)* 1.5 (OR+Forge) = 4.5h

 

[Silu]

Astronomy also does NOT get the 20% bonus. It's an anomaly. That's why you always want to bulb it, if possible.

We can increase the likelihood if we could gift him all the cheaper techs and have him choosing between something like Philo, Paper, GUilds and Astro.

Hmm, not that simple. AIs choose their "target tech" 1-3 techs deep (they very rarely change it after choosing, that's why you see AI start researching crap like Constitution sometimes still after being invaded) so it's almost always something expensive anyway. But yeah gifting a bunch increases the likelihood somewhat.

iAttitudeChange = -1 (handicap for Emporer)
iBaseAttitude = -1 for Izzy and Mehmed, 1 for Justy, 2 for Zara

Note: I don't know why my spreadsheet is giving me 0 for Zara, seems like it should be +1, so that Zara should be Friendly at +9 visible (contrary to what I said above).

You're right, I was sure Izzy Mehmed and J were in the +0 club, but indeed they're -1 -1 +1... That is weird. And ZY seems to be +2 (Friendly at +9 visible), never even knew anyone was something else than -1 +0 +1. I feel like such a noob now

You do remember that the vote threshold is +8 real and not Friendly, though?

Can someone tell me exactly how many UN hammers 2550g buys in a cash rush? (Not the formula, just the answer.)

212

 

[Mutineer]

In a way, it is too early to decide will we convert cottages to Workshops. Too many variable, on of which is we might need to research communism after MM, for GS. Will we get GE, will we have to gift UN city or can use it ourself.

 

[babybluepants]

I guess, but it takes a lot of worker turns to convert. We don't need to follow through immediately, but we do need to figure it out and probably pre-shop starting now.

 

[shyuhe]

I'd just send the workers to pre-shop tiles.

Also, to mysty - I think we're all on the same page now for the next turn set.

 

[mdy]

With 40 turns to mass media there should be no need to start preshopping the capital for 20 turns. Immiate priorities for the workers should be chopping the galleon, improving the horses, and chopping a granary in incense city (we were planning to found it 1E of the settlers location, right?). We could also build a few roads to improve logistics and maybe some farms in anticipation of growing our cities after firing the specialists.

 

[mystyfly]

I'm aware I'm up here... but to be honest I can't really follow... I have some trouble getting the time to read and think through all those different plans while constantly checking the save for this and that. I would be grateful if you could give me a summary of our plans for now and I'll try to put together a detailed PPP - I don't want to screw the game at this point so I wouldn't mind if someone else played it, however I don't mind playing when I'm properly informed...

 

[babybluepants]

Well, mdy posted a fairly detailed city-build and logistics plan a few pages back, and there is a detailed gpp plan from him, as well. Maybe you could try to summarize some sort of PPP into one post starting from there, so we can all comment at it more directly. I agree it's getting a bit out of control and it's hard to remember everything.

 

[mystyfly]

Thanks for those links bbp. Main problem was the many big changes, especially with LCs posts, I was not sure what the consensus was anymore. I'll have a look tomorrow, bbq party tonight

 

[shyuhe]

Mdy's city build and logistic plan should be a good starting point. The GPP plan is on his post and on my spreadsheet too. The only thing left to figure out should be missionary, worker, and military management--none of which is terribly complicated I think.

Big picture, I think this is what needs to get done in the next set:

Spread Buddhism to our cities
Farm some tiles then start pre-shopping around Delhi
Move our military to go take the furs
Move minimal military to gold city in preparation for war declaration there.
If possible, bribe Toku back to war with Saladin
Set EP to Saladin
Don't forget the whales

I think we're split on the issue of:
(1) Running an engineer in 2-fish for the T+9 GPP (I'm strongly against)
(2) Gifting civil service to Toku (I'm for)
(3) Preparing for a golden age (against, unless we're talking post-mass media)

 

[babybluepants]

(1) Running an engineer in 2-fish for the T+9 GPP (I'm strongly against)
(2) Gifting civil service to Toku (I'm for)

I agree.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Silu: Yes on the +8 for the UN VC. The Friendly was just about trading for monopoly techs.

Mysty: Go with mdy's plans. After you feel comfortable with your PPP, someone might make recommendations for getting Feudalism and spreading it and Machinery around, if that's possible during your turnset. The more AIs that have Feud+Mach, the greater the chances we might get lucky.

 

[mystyfly]

I'm trying to get a rough picture of my set... am I right on these points:

• we are trying to get a GE to rush UN in a city on sally landmass to gift him
• if we fail on the GE we build the UN in delhi with shops
• bribe toku vs sally with CS
• bring ~6 maces and a chariot to Barbland to capture cities and track down workers
• bring some units near sally in case we DOW him (if we need more votes?)
• spread buddhism to our cities
• shift around specs as per mdy's plan
• no GAs (yet?)
• whales WB
• else?

I'll try to put a pPPP (proper Pre-Play-Plan) together before tonight's match.

 

[babybluepants]

I think we've given up on the UN-gift plan, because:
a) It would take a while to gather up the required rush-buy money
b) It looks like Toku can beat out Mehmed for UN opponent

Don't think you'll be able to bribe him into war. I think we're leaning to just giving him CS in hopes it speeds him up towards warring.

 

[mystyfly]

Well, this is mdy's "Invade Saladin Plan". Are we currently planning to do so? I guess so...

Spoiler :

Ivory:

T+4 mace
T+8 mace
T+13 mace
T+18 mace
T+21 missionary for barb island
T+23 missionary for barb island
T+25 archer
research
missionary T+28 (for Oasis T+33)
missionary T+31 (for Sugar T+36)
then wealth/research/ spare missionaries for barb island

galleons sail with 6 maces on T+18. Devils Gate should fall on T+23, and Zhou around T+28.
Second galleon sailing on T+23 with 2 missionaries, 3GP's, and 1 warrior
Third galleon sailing on T+34 with 3 warriors, final GP, and any extra missionaries

Rice:

Send warrior on coast to ivory
T+11 galleon with 1 chop, arrives ivory T+16
Delay GP so capital produces one before rice
T+21 archer, send warrior to ivory arrives T+34
Build wealth/research/maces

2 Fish:

send scientist to ivory
T+9 galleon
Hopefully next GP is merchant for Mecca
T+25 mace
Send last GP to ivory
T+40 mace
Send GP to ivory

Oasis:

T+8 mace
T+15 mace
T+23 mace
T+26 archer, send warrior to ivory
Build wealth/research/maces

Bombay:

T+5 mace
T+10 mace
T+15 mace
T+20 mace
T+25 mace
T+29 mace
T+34 mace
Build wealth/research/maces

Sugar:
T+3 mace
T+10 mace
T+17 mace
T+24 mace
T+31 mace
T+38 mace
Build wealth/reseacrh/maces

Marble:

T+24 galleon
Build wealth/research/maces


Gold:

T+19 lighthouse, stop working gold mine, maximise growth

Capital:

Send artist to ivory
work grass mines
T+11 observatory
T+15 temple, start working cottages instead
T+19 missionary for Bombay (T+20)
T+23 missionary for deer (T+24)
Continue mace
T+28 missionary for gold (T+34)
finish mace if time before starting U.N.

Incense:

chop granary, pasture horses, start lightouse

We can completely disregard that if we are not planning on attacking sal though. I am assuming we're ok with these builds. Also, as soon as available, I'll trade for anything I can get from the AIs, especially construction. This means switching maces for cats.

Spoiler :

T+0 Hire merchants instead of scientist in marble. Send current artist and scientist to ivory.
T+6 Generate GP in marble. If it is a scientist send to ivory. If it is a merchant send to Mecca, and hire scientists + engineer in place of merchants in 2 fish. Rehire scientists in marble.
T+11 Generate a GP in 2 fish. If it is a merchant and we don't already have one send to Mecca, if we do send to ivory. If it is an engineer save in capital. If it is a scientist also send to ivory. If it is an artist curse the RNG a thousand times for screwing us again. Fire all scientists in rice.
T+13 rehire 5 scientist in rice (should now be at pop 14)
T+23 GP generated in capital, if it is an engineer and we don't have one keep in capital, otherwise send to ivory. Fire capital specialists. Starve rice by hiring 3 more specialists. Starve 2 fish by hiring extra specialist there
T+28 Generate GP in rice. Fire 3 scientists. Hire an extra specialist in 2 fish
T+31 Final specialist generated in 2 fish. If GE and we don't already have one send to capital, otherwise send to ivory

Are we agreed on (exactly) this GPP plan? What about GGs? Is there a scenario where I would have to bulb during my set (~10 turns)?


Other things:

- techs SM > Physics

- Start preshopping now? Well, completely shop over the new cottages?

- EP on sally

- Whales WB

- give CS to toku as we can't butter him up with gifts and he's not bribable at cautious

- trade for any tech and gold there is

- other things?



Thanks for your patience guys

 

[mdy]

Are we agreed on (exactly) this GPP plan? What about GGs? Is there a scenario where I would have to bulb during my set (~10 turns)?

If it looks like we can be certain of getting a GG in time we can use 3 scientists to bulb electricity instead of 2. (Note the above plan assumed a T+30 mass media, not T+40 so we can get in an additional GS bulb, so you don't need to bother sending the scientist in 2 fish to ivory)

If you are playing around 10 turns could you make it till the GP is generated in 2 fish on T+11? Knowing what this is would remove one of the uncertainties affecting our future plans.

Start preshopping now? Well, completely shop over the new cottages?

T+40 victory means we don't need to start pre shopping for another 20 turns. I think it would be more effective to use this time to improve our road network and maybe build a couple of farms in addition to chopping the galleon/granary and improving the horses.

other things?

Are we still planning on trying to use the chariot to try and steal a few workers before the maces arrive?

 

[babybluepants]

If you are playing around 10 turns could you make it till the GP is generated in 2 fish on T+11? Knowing what this is would remove one of the uncertainties affecting our future plans.

Yes.

Are we still planning on trying to use the chariot to try and steal a few workers before the maces arrive?

I think we should. There aren't any scary units down there. It would just need to survive one archer or axe attack in the worst-case scenario.

 

[mystyfly]

If you are playing around 10 turns could you make it till the GP is generated in 2 fish on T+11? Knowing what this is would remove one of the uncertainties affecting our future plans.

Sure. That's what I meant by "~10 turns"

Are we still planning on trying to use the chariot to try and steal a few workers before the maces arrive?

Thought so too.