SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

kossin · May 31, 2010

Alright, here's a draft. I'm missing a lot of details as I only tried making the big lines of the plan so we can start tweaking it. Unit movement and worker movement is especially disregarded after a few turns.

Every turn

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t130 750BC - Alphabet ETA 12

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t131 725BC - Alphabet ETA 11

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t132 700BC - Alphabet ETA 10

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t133 675BC - Alphabet ETA 9

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t134 650BC - Alphabet ETA 8

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t135 625BC - Alphabet ETA 7

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t136 600BC - Alphabet ETA 6

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t137 575BC - Alphabet ETA 5

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t138 550BC - Alphabet ETA 4

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t139 525BC - Alphabet ETA 3

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t140 500BC - Alphabet ETA 2

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t141 475BC - Alphabet ETA 1

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t142 450BC - Alphabet done

Spoiler :

Duckweed · May 31, 2010

Plan looks pretty good, worker and unit move are not very important in this stage.

Some alternative changes you may want to try.

T135
Pat -- 4th citizen on 3F tile

T138
Delhi starts Aqu

T140
How about chopping the forest to settler and overflow to WB which can be used by the Fish/Deer city. We can do 2 pop whip of Granary. Another choice is to save all the forests for Parthenon.

T141
Vij settler to the 3 clam spot, it can work on 4F2C tile immediately. Let galley move toward Fish/Horse city. Vij starts granary.

Edit:
I have thought about BIC's suggestion of researching MC after CS and before Lit. I think it could be a better choice. We are going to chop 2~4 forests to TGL and forge bonus could save ~3 turns of TGL. Researching MC takes about 7 turns hence that means 4 turns delay of TGL (might not since it takes time for worker to chop the forests), but probably faster Parthenon in Pat. It's a tradeoff between hammers and beakers. I'm a little toward MC.

kossin · May 31, 2010

T135
I had put the 4th citizen on 2F1H to get 1 overflow in the settler but I guess 1 food is as good or better.

T138
Yea, upon further reflection, this makes more sense. No need for the temple right away.

T140
I like it.
However I don't like this city for building Parthenon to be honest, its production is only 4 and there aren't that many forests around it =\
If we add a granary to Vijay, it can do it in a relatively 'fast' time

T141
Good point as BIC had suggested this city can pop borders so that the island city doesn't have to.

I'm fine with MC before Aesth/Lit - it also adds 2 much needed happiness in Delhi. The AI is so slow the odds we even lose Parthenon are almost 0%. It will even take forever for us to cash in on failure gold from certain wonders (S. Paya and C. Itza for example). Lastly we can always decide to sink some hammers in Colossus if there's a lot of land up north.

I'd go for Parthenon in Vijay but that's just me.

~~~

I'll update the plan tomorrow and try for the big picture of FW and units in the later turns.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 1, 2010

Glad to see MC interests you. I failed to point out how much I would like a forge in Delhi when I bolded the Colossus. So... yep, MC retains its interest even if we don't build the Colossus.

Pata could also use a forge, to increase its "natural" number of specialists, and Vijay, and horse city... and now we have silver+gold... Did I mention the forge was one of my favourite buildings ?

If you think the beaker loss vs other teams is acceptable (or even compensated, long term), then I'm all for MC ! :goodjob:

If it delays us too much, well... I have no complaints about Aesthetics, as long as the issue is discussed the result is fine with me

@Failure gold :
When Alphabet will be in, it will be easier to know when to start a wonder for cash.

Bugg123 · Jun 1, 2010

A little late, but I'm back.

Good going here with some interesting discussion. Trying to catch up.

No problem with kossin playing to alpha.

Duckweed · Jun 1, 2010

Good to see you back, Bugg123, any suggestions?

We have been a little slow in the progress recently. Let's move on, shall we? We are pretty consentaneous on most things.

Bugg123 · Jun 1, 2010

Tested a bit now.

I don't mind going MC and getting a forge up in Delhi before TGL (I actually maybe think maybe we should get HG in before TGL too, but don't remember any discussion of HG lately).

As for Parthenon, maybe Vijay can try for it (to keep scientists in Pati). It's a bit slow I guess, but it could work. Why do you want parthenon in Pati, Duckweed?

If we're lucky, we could still get lateish MoM in Delhi too.

Other than that I like kossin's micro and duckweed's additions.

Bugg123 · Jun 1, 2010

Do we have a set diplo background? We're bound to get demands for gold soon (even if we keep binary every other turn), and potentially stop-trading with too. I guess those are the most relevant for this turnset.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 1, 2010

Eeeek...
So I finally moved my (not so tidy but pretty heavy) stuff into my car and crossed half of France... I'll have more time to spend on this game from tomorrow ('xcept that I put 21 turns into BOTM30...), now I'm exhausted (maybe I seemed to have time in the previous days but that was just an illusion as I was merely driven by the need to escape my obligations

).

I haven't tested much but I read your plan with care, Kossin, I find it good

Duckweed observed a few things I second (what I leave aside, I have no opinion on, yet).

Duckweed said:
T138
Delhi starts Aqu

Yep, especially if we go for MC.

Duckweed said:
T141
Vij settler to the 3 clam spot, it can work on 4F2C tile immediately. Let galley move toward Fish/Horse city. Vij starts granary.

I also prefer to settle the 3 clam spot before the sugar, but I said so already. I'd only settle the sugar if it did net superior trade routes.

@Parthenon :
Like Kossin, I'd find it more sensible to build it in Vijay. I didn't run tests, though.
Reason : Pali has only limited production, I'd rather chop infra there than wonders. Granary, Lighthouse, Library, University, Harbour, Monasteries (forge, temples, aqueduct, etc.). It will be a great boost if we can accelerate some of this. Pali would do what it's meant to do : run specialists.

Duckweed · Jun 1, 2010

I don't have strong tendency of Parthenon location. Pat has 4 forests to chop, so might be faster and also adds 2GPP to the pool. It contaminates the GP pool but in very low odd. Vij is also a good choice.

We will refuse any demand other than tech and resources. Very low chance of cash demand when we keep it low.

kossin · Jun 1, 2010

2 things:

1- Be wary of the search function. I've sent a pm to AlanH and hope to get a positive answer back. All I'll say is I was looking up keywords trying to find an old post but hit the back button right away without reading anything.

2- I'll update the plan but I'll wait for an answer from AlanH before playing. I'm guessing I'll have an answer by tomorrow so if anyone wants to pick up the save before that's fine with me.

kossin · Jun 1, 2010

Updated.
Parts in red are new/fixed.

Every turn

Spoiler :

t130 750BC - Alphabet ETA 12

Spoiler :

t131 725BC - Alphabet ETA 11

Spoiler :

t132 700BC - Alphabet ETA 10

Spoiler :

t133 675BC - Alphabet ETA 9

Spoiler :

t134 650BC - Alphabet ETA 8

Spoiler :

t135 625BC - Alphabet ETA 7

Spoiler :

t136 600BC - Alphabet ETA 6

Spoiler :

t137 575BC - Alphabet ETA 5

Spoiler :

t138 550BC - Alphabet ETA 4

Spoiler :

t139 525BC - Alphabet ETA 3

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t140 500BC - Alphabet ETA 2

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t141 475BC - Alphabet ETA 1

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t142 450BC - Alphabet done

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Continuing forward this gives...

Spoiler :

dingding · Jun 2, 2010

T131:

How about Bombay taking the FP and growing pop when hammering wealth, while Vijay is using the Horse?

T132 & 135:

Delhi’s 6th and 7th pop on mine doesn’t sound great to me.
On mine: -1F+3G+1C, -1F = -2H, 3G1C=5.3B
On farm: +1F+1C, 1F = 2H, 1C = 1.3B
As scientist: -2F = -4H, +10.5B, +6GPP

If using a simplified model, 1H=1G, their total outputs are +2.6B, +3.7B, +5.2B.

That model may be not very accurate considering given some other factors. I think the real problem is what our short-term objective is. Beelining CS ASAP of course, but do those few beakers matter? I prefer to focus on the second objective: wonder-spamming. So I would prefer the second one, work on farm, to accumulate food, which is pop and hammer, for the next stage after CS.

T135:
Pata: I have a different understanding about the 4th pop’s working tile. It depends what you want to build next.

T137:
Maybe you can start settler/worker in Delhi this turn and whip it next turn under bureau.

I think the Alphabet will be finished later than T142 since Zara has 15turns to reach it in the real game. It doesn’t matter to play it for a few more turns though.

About techs:

I think MC will be premature after MC given we’ll already get +100% bonus from resource, +50% from Bureau and probably +25% from OR. +25% from Forge isn’t that much esp with its great expense.

On the other hand, putting beakers on MC and spending hammers on Forge both mean delaying TGL, which the bonus from Forge can’t cover. Delaying TGL for 1 turn is already 21B16GPP of loss!

About the settler from Vijay:

Settling down in the 3 clams spot will have a better development, but a new offshore city is immediately +8C from its own traderoads and +5C from the mainland city. The clam city is not productive anyway, it’s too good to be delayed a bit.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 2, 2010

dingding said:
About techs:

I think MC will be premature after MC given we’ll already get +100% bonus from resource, +50% from Bureau and probably +25% from OR. +25% from Forge isn’t that much esp with its great expense.

On the other hand, putting beakers on MC and spending hammers on Forge both mean delaying TGL, which the bonus from Forge can’t cover. Delaying TGL for 1 turn is already 21B16GPP of loss!

Right, we'd lose on the tech rate. Duckweed estimated it to 4 turns lost for the Great Lib. Making the Great Lib loss of 84B64GPP.
The loss in beakers is a bit less, though, since a forge would raise the happy cap by 2, allowing to work more commerce tiles. Still, that's a loss.

You're right to point out that we will mostly have multipliers for our next buildings (stone/marble/trait) + Bureau. I doubt about OR in the near future (SR would be Confu, obviously). But maybe we can afford a "quick" switch into Confu, yep, time to build a wonder or two.
Once the multipliers add up, the +25% from the forge isn't so much. But... the total amount of hammers we need in Delhi is BIG. Like : we would delay the Great Lib, but from the NE (or next building, dunno), things would be faster.

dingding said:
About the settler from Vijay:

Settling down in the 3 clams spot will have a better development, but a new offshore city is immediately +8C from its own traderoads and +5C from the mainland city. The clam city is not productive anyway, it’s too good to be delayed a bit.

Don't you think there would be enough foreign trade routes for the clam city ? Now we've OB with 4 AIs. They will keep settling as the map allows...
If there aren't enough trade routes, though, yes, it would be better to settle offshore.

Hum...
"and +5C from the mainland city."
Where... does this come from ? Is it a bonus for each offshore city ? Does it appear in the capital ? That's the part that could do the difference, right ? Sorry, I have only little knowledge of the traderoutes mechanics.

Duckweed · Jun 2, 2010

@kossin and dingding

T131 -- My impression is that Bombay already works on FP and copper, if not, then agree with dingding

T132-135 -- Depends on the cash, if it's enough to finish CS in T138, then farm>mine, otherwise mine>farm

T137 -- definitely no, all decent spots have been covered hence a couple hundred beakers from Delhi now is better than any settler and worker

T138 -- Is Bombay at size 3? better to start worker at size 3.

MC 1st delays TGL, while saves hammers in all other cites, overall it gains.

4 turns of 4F2C in Sugar city vs 4~5 turns of 2C + 3C (mainland city), the former is better.

Overall a pretty good plan, go ahead when you are ready.

kossin · Jun 2, 2010

@dingding
T131
Might work (thought about it but didn't try... we really don't come out with that much gold left), I'd
have to check where that leaves us gold-wise before we reach CS.

T132&135
This depends on what we do with Delhi later. If we do not want to whip it before Forges then working mines will avoid angry citizens - and the reason why I put the Temple originally. There is no guarantee of having an extra city spot to settle as well (we are already getting the 4 settlers we know to need), a worker could do however I guess.

I haven't bothered comparing 1 turn earlier CS vs earlier higher pop Delhi. However if you can confirm the latter comes out ahead, I'm pretty sure everyone will be fine with it.

The Bureau+slavery revolt can work, we don't need Caste until t142. (Alternatively we can save ~10 gold by going into Tribalism there)

However on the other hand, we had already identified this map's problem as commerce being the limiting factor... what will really determine if we win early isn't how many wonders we spam in Delhi but how early we can reach U.N. ... maybe that's a reason to try squeezing out as many beakers as we can.

T135 Patali
It's for 1 turn. The possibilities are:
3F ... stores 1 more food
2F1H ... 1 overflow hammer
2F2C ... either 2 beakers or 2 gold
Spec ... -2F and some beakers

The 1 overflow hammer is pretty weak, more food can't hurt, 2C could be considered, a spec is not good too early.
Pati goes like this
[start Settler]...[1 turn workboat]...[Finish Settler]>2nd wb (4 turns for fish+deer)>granary (size 5, can be whipped before too much food is lost)

I don't really mind either direction, they both work. What did you have in mind?

T137
See T132&135

Alphabet is due in 12 according to the last screenshot I took?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9239120&postcount=817

MC vs Aesth+Litt
You've made a good point. I guess what we need to decide is hammers or beakers. I still believe beakers to be the limiting factor so I have no problem changing my mind to Aesth>Litt>MC.

Vijay settler:
Either way works I guess. The island city is stuck running an artist or working an unimproved tile for 4 turns.
Let's look at movement required however:
Vijay<->sugar: 3 turns to settle
Calcutta<->sugar: 3 turns to settle
Vijay<->3 clams: 2 turns to settle
Calcutta<->3 clams: 4 turns to settle on foot, 3 turns to settler with the help of the galley i.e. unload in Vijay on 2nd turn

By switching locations we are getting

Island city on t143 (instead of t146) [+3 turns of added commerce]
Triple clams on t147 (instead of t142) [-1 turn of settled city]

I do agree that settling Island works out to more commerce (it's clear even without calculating it), however the problem lies with popping borders. In my plan, Triple-clam pops borders right away and we're ready to revolt to Slavery on t146.
If we don't, then triple clams or island becomes useless until t151 (triple clams could take cows from Vijay, but Vijay kinda needs 'em unless we can plan a granary whip). Still it slows us down empire-wise way too much for what I like.

Granted this could be different if some seafood is discovered on the other side of the island > then I'd prioritize Island first.

@BIC
Research is the limiting factor going MC>...>Lit, it might be even more than 4 turns depending on our stash of gold. I think 4 turns is the best possible outcome to be honest.

@Duckweed
Right, I'll give it another sweep add in the various suggestions and see how it turns out.

I'm not sold on MC right after CS. What cities will benefit from it? Most other cities will be busy with more pressing things in the 4~6 turns delayed on MC - only Delhi really benefits from what I can think.

Duckweed · Jun 2, 2010

Many cities can produce MC right after Granary and/or LH and hence it allows for more efficient whipping of other infras. Forge in Delhi also allows faster other wonders.

kossin · Jun 2, 2010

Yes I know, I'm just trying to figure how many cities can use that headstart in building a forge compared to researching MC after Literature. (i.e. start Forge right away when MC is done, before Literature is done)

EDIT: Oh and Congrats on 3rd straight gold medal in BOTM29. You're really spanking the competition!

Duckweed · Jun 2, 2010

Pat, the city will be crazily whipped. If we go Lit 1st, then it's 8 turns delayed of MC, Pat will grow to size 6 in a minute.
Thanks, I'm pretty satisfied in the early part of BOTM29, but this game has been played better until now.

dingding · Jun 2, 2010

About MC:

The other cities can't have that hammers (pops) to put on forge that early. There is no need to hurry for MC if it's not for Delhi.

To calculate the output of forge in Delhi, it's easy to find the break-even:
Cost: 180H/(1+25%+50%) = 103H
Bonus on output (if building wonders): (1+25%+50%+100%+25%)/(1+25%+50%+100%)-100% = 9.1%
Break-even: 103H/9.1% = 1131H

So the forge in Delhi won't be interesting before putting a total amount of 1131H (final hammers). That's approximately hammers for TGL+Aqueduct+HG. Hence personally this forge is premature and inappropriate given the great loss of delaying TGL.

Now for me, even Calendar is more prioticized than MC.

Edit: Break-even of forge can be calculated in the same way for the other cities when building infra. That's 720H. I don't think we need that much hammers for infra, since Granary+LH are usually earlier than Forge, after them, it's roughly Libra+Univ+Harbor for about 405H. It doesn't seem like we have that much infra to build either.

About T135 in Pata:

After the settler, it seems too late to perform a 2-pop whipping (4=>2) for the Granary because the food bar is pretty full. I'd like to chop one WB for the Fish city, then perform 2-pop whipping (5=>3) for the Granary when the food bar is at 1/3 in size 5.

SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Deity

Deity

Deity

Agent of Chaos

Prince

Deity

Prince

Prince

Agent of Chaos

Deity

Deity

Deity

Prince

Agent of Chaos

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Prince

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