SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Duckweed · Jun 24, 2010

Bugg123 said:
Whipping one in Pati only to keep at 2-pop whip. Can hold it if you want, but it'll delay the last mace from Pati enough that our attack is 1 turn delayed, I think. Will look at it.
Will check libs in Banga+Hyde. Very little overflow, + Banga regrows T179 regardless.
Continuing monasteries to within 1 turn means we also whip in some cash. About 78h + 10g vs 62h. We're getting more hammers by building MoM rather than whipping cash, overall.

Pat don't need to build any units in the last few turns before DOW if the units from there could not reach the border in time.
Little is still something and the bigger problem is what's the benefit if you delay the whip? your plan raised the slider to 100% next turn while you delay the lib.
My impression is that the overflow only translates into cash when the next build is small, but not big building like OU. Better to test and find it out.

Bugg123 said:
We need to decide on how many units we want where. And which cities to take. War should be prepared at end of this turnset for attack on T190, I think.

9+3 on eastern border of Delhi seems a lot for Horse+Cow city. (Leaving us with only 6+2 to go for Aksoum+Wheat+cow+iron (If we want all 3)).

12 units are for capital + Horse/Cow city, they will be sent through Zara's land to the galleys 1st and land to the target city using navies.

Bugg123 said:
If we're making Madras into a 3rd GP-farm (and not Banga), I think we should use Banga for HM production and thus put Hindu there first.

Var can produce HM after spies and Bangalore need Forge at that time.

Bugg123 said:
So.. keep Pata at minimum size 4, then?.
If we start cats at T186, I don't think we can get them in position to war T190. Spending 1 turn to finish construction > later war, no?
Also, getting to start a cat in Pata allows for only 2-pop whips there. Overflow will eventually lead to a 1-pop whip of mace in Pata (I think).

The question is how many turns of earlier war (or the 6 captured cities can contribute) can outproduce the beakers invested to Construction?

BTW,
I think no techs is really needed in short time, so we can put slider to 0% until OU is completed.
Get the woodmanIII warrior back for the war.

kossin · Jun 24, 2010

@Duckweed
Using BULL, I can confirm that any more turns into a Monastery = gold from whipping. Not sure if we can micro it differently but Bugg is probably right that we're better to just put hammers in MoM instead.

@Bugg
The DoW by ZY is interesting (I refused a demand which pissed him). It pretty much confirms that he will bribe Izzy but also, given the opportunity will bribe Mehmed. If we don't want to face Mehmed then we need to be Pleased with him, which is easily done by getting him Pleased or just crossing the threshold for power (I think 75% for Mehmed since we're not land targets).

I'll wait for the new plan but will fiddle a bit around with the save nonetheless.

kossin · Jun 24, 2010

Toyed a bit with the save.

***I forgot to add back the Forge in Varanasi*** you can add it back right away this turn. Also the position of troops is off (Taoist Missionary missing.)

We can build Monasteries to within 1 turn of completion in Delhi and whip them if we're not under OR.
So say t186 whip a Monastery t187 revolt to OR to let the overflow in OU. However we won't be able to do this with both monasteries and hammer wise it actually is less than sticking to OR whips of course.

We can 3-whip universities on t186 in Hyde and Bangalore - hammers are irrelevant, we just need food to grow. I haven't checked for Madras but I assume it can be done as well meaning OU can be started on t187.

75% of Mehmed's power seems to be enough for him not to join the war - I expect we'll reach that number easily enough.

Techs:
After Construction, turning off the slider while waiting for Oxford seems fine... we'll have a very large sum of gold to spend deficit-researching. We can probably put beakers on Music while 0% and finish it as need be. After that probably Nationalism hoping to trade for Compass.

Bugg123 · Jun 24, 2010

@all:

I'm a bit burned out tonight, so not sure I can put together a revised plan (I'll get to it tomorrow morning if not).

Will look at the Monasteries a bit more, but seems kind of like spending the hammers on MoM isn't bad (with kossin's tests). Could be my save was off enough to get all cities to whip Uni's 1 turn sooner.

Turning slider to 0% waiting for OU after construction and researching music @ 0% seems ok with me. I still want Construction, but will look at that a bit more as well.

@duckweed

The question is how many turns of earlier war (or the 6 captured cities can contribute) can outproduce the beakers invested to Construction?

It's a good question.. I'm afraid I can't answer that exactly. By delaying cats to T186 or so we'll be out of Theo, though (for whipping Uni's and building OU), so I'm not sure.. (It can probably be 13-14 maces by t186, so as far as getting an army up we'll be a few turns delayed... can test it if you want, but having 5exp cats is also good).

Will move woody back (to calcutta?).

Ok for HM in Var.

@BIC
I'm not sure we want hammers into a temple while gearing up for war as quickly as possible. Seems such a waste.

@kossin
I don't really think Meh is going to be a problem for DOW given our power at that time. But I guess we'll see.

Duckweed · Jun 24, 2010

With timed 4 forest chops and monastery overflow, we should be able to complete OU in 1 turn. Note: If the Tao missionary successfully spreads to Delhi, then we can just complete Hindu monastery and use Tao monastery for overflow.

Another safe way to stop Meh from joining the war is to give him all the techs Zara has.

The positions of units are quite important for efficient war. The war will be launched and probably ended in kossin's set. A detailed plan should help now.

kossin · Jun 24, 2010

It will be tricky to manage 4 timed forest chops on T187.
It's 4*5 = 20 worker turns and we have 10 turns to do so. A bit less as they aren't in chopping position. It can be done but it will slow down our road network a little bit.

I'm confident that by the time we DoW our power will be high enough to deter Mehmed from attacking us (1.5*50% = 75%) but Izzy will be dumb enough to join in.

I'll be quite busy for a few weeks but I'll try my best to spend some time testing and hopefully playing my set without too much delay

Duckweed · Jun 24, 2010

My impression is that only the road network in Cal really matters at that time. The 2 workers can go back for the road after complete the forest chop N of Delhi. If we can't manage it, we can always delay the plantation and road 1st. The happiness won't be a problem in short time.

When AI is bribed to the war, does he use the combined power or his own power?

Bugg123 · Jun 25, 2010

@duckweed:

12 units are for capital + Horse/Cow city, they will be sent through Zara's land to the galleys 1st and land to the target city using navies.

Sorry to be dense, but... Do you mean 12 units loaded on ships to take out Lalibela (Iron+cow+wheat) and 8 units on foot to Gondar (horse+cow). Then converge on Aksoum?

Or

Marching 12 units to Gondar from Delhi and putting 8 units on ships to take Lalibela?

Or

something completely different?

EDIT: Read through again, and I think I get it .. but not sure

Split into 3 stacks (4mace+3cats for cow/horse, 5 mace for capitol, 6 mace+2cats for wheat cow). wheat+cow stack is shipped towards cordoba once Zara capitulates.

If so I can get all stacks close to done and in place by T190 (We'll be 2 maces short for wheat+cow stack. They'll arrive T194 (310AD) in Calcutta, ready to move for wheat+cow.

I don't think I can get 12 units onto 6 galleys within striking-distance of Aksoum+Gondar in the timeframe we have. I was thinking we should march the cow+horse stack through zara-land, and only ship 5 maces to Aksoum. Declaring T190 means we take Aksoum T191, attack Gondar T193 which is also the turn cow+wheat stack enters enemy territory (taking Lalibela T195). And hopefully Cordoba around that time too.

Bugg123 · Jun 25, 2010

Some more testing (final plan not 100% yet) some thoughts:

Building Monastery to within 1 turn in Delhi = we get to build OU in 1 turn (assuming kossin's game is 100%, haven't checked yet). So in that case I'm ok with it.

I think we'll be ready to declare T190 pretty much regardless. We may be a few maces short on T190 like I said, but definately ready by T193 with 15maces/5cats.

I need to know exactly where you want what troops for the assault in the next turnset, kossin.

EDIT: At some point we may need to research compass ourselves to avoid putting cities on wealth when they could be building harbors, maybe?

Will get back to the final plan later today. I can't say for sure when I'll be able to play the turnset if I get the OK tonight. Maybe tonight, maybe tomorrow evening. If not sunday afternoon for sure. (I'm kinda tied up this weekend, but will do my best to accomodate)

Bugg123 · Jun 25, 2010

New, revised plan

Please note that Agra, Hyder and Madras are put on Wealth when I don't really know what else we would want there at that time.

(A few questionable builds highlighted in bold)

Spoiler :

OU finishes T189, We can start war T190 if we want. MoM still 8 turns off.

Will look at trades later.

While playing, check if we have to finish Music (if someone gets Lit or Drama, I may want to just grab it). Also see if we can sell commonly spread techs for a bit of cash. Will try to check resource deals as well each turn.

Bugg123 · Jun 25, 2010

Proposed resource deals:

Justinian : Cancel sugar deal, start sugar for 3
Meh: Cancel gold deal, start gold for 2
Sal: Cancel Marble for horse, Start Marble+1 for horse ?
Zara: Cancel gold deal, start gold for 2

kossin · Jun 25, 2010

Universities can be all whipped on t186 and OU started on t187 as a result. You may need to change tiles between Bangalore and Hyde for both to reach size 6 on that turn.

Harbors aren't the only interesting building we can get. As I said earlier Moai can be done for failure gold and courthouses will be needed (6) so that we can put FP on the Toku landmass.

Will check tonight. Troop position isn't so important as long as they can strike fast to avoid Zara whipping down everything.

Bugg123 · Jun 25, 2010

@kossin:

You're right. In my test I'm a few foods off regrowth in Banga (2) and Hyder (1), I'll see if I can make sure they hit Pop 6 on T 186. That also means I'll need to cut some roading with the Calcutta workers to have them complete chop T187. Will look into that.

about next builds:
Varan builds HMs
Agra builds Moai after CH then (for failure gold)?
Madras can build CH
Hyder can build CH
Pati I'd rather not whip any more right now, so doing Temple there is hopefully ok. If not CH can be done there as wel.

Duckweed · Jun 25, 2010

After the necessary builds for war and OU, the next builds would be:
Bangalore and Hyde -- forge
Madras -- HM -- We'll need a lot of HM for old cites and new conquered cities.

The 1st priority of the war is to capture Zara's capital right after landing, so 1 cat + 5 or 7 macemans depends on how many units there, 7 should be a safe number. 2 cats + 2 or 4 macemans for the Cow/Horse city. We can capture the rest 2 cities in the same turn.

Edit: Remember to distribute level 3 macemans to every stack.
No worry about Music, every AI needs more than 10 turns while we can complete it in 2 turns.

Bugg123 · Jun 25, 2010

Revised Final plan:

I've added whipping 1 Monastery into MoM T189. I'm fine not doing it and just building it T180 instead.

Spoiler :

Will remember to distribute Maces. In all tests Zara has "no army" in Aksoum. Will see.. can do 5-7 Maces there, 2-4+2cats for horse+cow and the rest in calcutta for cow+wheat.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 25, 2010

So, sorry, I thought I'd have time to test the plan before giving my input. I think I won't because I'm on heavy duty these days (looking for a job !!! Arrgh !).
Things look really good, though

@ Next build in Madras :
Agree with Duckweed that we don't need courthouses yet on our mainland. If we do build some for the F. Palace, then it would be better in hammer cities, after the war (something like Vijay, Lalibella and Gondar).
Hindu Missionaries are good to build in Madras if it spreads on T183. If it doesn't spread, maybe swap Moai / HM build between Agra and Madras.

@ DoW :
The buddhist team happens to DoW us in the testgame... I hope it won't happen.

Bugg123 · Jun 25, 2010

@kossin:
I still think it matters we aggree sort of where you want what units, since the attack could happen T190 if you want.

@duckweed:
Bringing a suicide cat to Aksoum could be nice. I guess it all depends what's in there.

I'm usually bringing too much of an army into a war, so some thoughts of what we really must have given different scenarios would be nice.
I guess I could also post a screenshot in the middle of my remaining turns with Zara's army exposed so we can decide what to do. Probably no need to upload just for that.

What's not mentioned in my plan:
Keep a lookout near both cow+wheat and cow+horse.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 25, 2010

@ Troop movements :
See screen below for my thoughts.

Spoiler :

Maybe we should give priority to the capture of Lalibela over Gondar. Zara can send HAs into our territory easily from Lalibela, which is not the case from Gondar.

Duckweed · Jun 25, 2010

@bugg123

I still think there's no reason to delay lib in Hyde since we gain 25% research bonus in T178, plus that we really don't gain the 3H from the hill tile since whipping earlier will enable the city to grow faster and hence work on the hill tile earlier in the long term.

Can we make all cats level3?

Are the 6 galleys ready for the war in T190?
We want 2 or 3 galleys on 4E of Gondar.
3 or 4 galleys 4E of Lal.
Can the workers complete the road network to 2S2W of Lal (1S, 2S, 3S1E and 3S2E of Cal)? If not, better let the 2 workers cancel plantation and start road from T177.

kossin · Jun 25, 2010

Agree with Duckweed.

We should hit all three cities right away via boats, load and ship the troops for horse-cow earlier as needed.

@BIC
The test game is only representative of food/hammers. I don't think Zara even has HBR for real.

More tonight from me ... Not more time now.

SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

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Agent of Chaos

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