@kossin I actually already answered your question. Assume Zhou at size 6, here's the detailed budget from Bugg123's screen shot Maintenance fee -- ~20g Commerce -- 1. 6C domestic trade routes from Delhi and Pat 2. 2C from city center 3. 10C from 2 villages seen 4. 6~10C from 2 uncovered hamlets or villages 5. 3C from clam Total = 27 ~31 C (more if we work on FUR tile if it's there) Hammers = 7H (2H from city center tile + 5H from iron) No doubt it's already a gain even without CH. There's more benefits 1. Zhou add land, power and pop to our empire. 2. We don't need to pay the away units fee for (4 warriors + GPs) 3. There's a chance of free spreading of religion to the barbarian colony. Even not, HM is still not an issue since we can produce a HM under OR from Zhou or any other cities such as Madrid or Cordoba after MM researched. @Bugg123 We have to clearly determine the plan of GP production -- number and location. If we let Pat grow before Pacifism and hire specialists after Pacifism, Can it produce a GP and reach size 20 in time? I fell it's really a waste of not producing 1 GP from Pat.