SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

[Bugg123]

Uhm.. I'm playing. Saladin now wants us to cancel deals with the Ottomans (I have not scouted all of Meh's land). If we refuse, we risk dropping to +7 with Sal. Which means no more pleased, which means no more vassal...

So, I suppose I have to ok this demand... Will wait a few mins for anyone online and with a different opinion

EDIT: Can't wait. I'm ok'ing it since we don't want to mess with Sal (as per our general plan) ... Have scouted the West.. found one small stack.. not scouted Ankara..

 

[Bugg123]

OK.. turnset played.

Went pretty much according to plan (except the whole Saladin bit I mentioned )

Good news is we got a GS!

Our score looks pretty cool too...

Anyways.. Have at it kossin! I'm off to bed. Report isn't very interesting, so I'll get to it tomorrow...

 

[kossin]

@dingding

Good point. I was trying to explain the score drop but am clueless now.

@Bugg
Yes cancelling deals with Mehmed was the right choice.

It's a very good thing that Judaism hasn't spread to Isabella/Zara or we'd be in trouble with AP loss possibility!

Everything looks great.
I will update the test game tonight and try to simulate the war as that's the only real thing left.
Research seems in the bag, although we need to be careful about our money I guess (part of the simulation to do).

Need to remember too: SPREAD HINDU TO VIJAY (in case I forget).

Looking forward on update to Mehmed troops.

 

[dingding]

Good playing Bugg!

Refusing the demand from Saladin doesn't necessarily mean no more pleased with him, but it doesn't matter. You made the good choice to make it prudent.

As I see it:
1. The GP plan needs to be revised, we can't pop a GP even by starving all the 10 pops of Madras to death: 10 pops = (120+12)*10/2 = 660GPP, and we needs 780. Solution: keep only 5 merchants for 2 turns (60GPP/turn), then all 10pops into spe. Then we get full 1500GPP 7 turns later (T230). Delhi can make another in T232~T233 I guess. However it seems too late to wait for the 3rd one in Delhi. Hope the war can be launched early to show where comes the 2nd GG. If not, just double bulb Electricity. Nothing biggy to delay 1~2 turns in order to ensure the victory.

2. Get Guide from Saladin (what an incentive!), send him to research Gunpowder (and give Education to him to accelerate the research)

3. The observatory in Delhi is useless, build a HM there for Vijay/Devil Gate.

 

[kossin]

@dingding

1. No, the plan is fine, I just didn't write it out completely [yet].
We revolt to Slavery next turn (t222) to whip Airships where Madras can only run 5 specialists (Library, Forge, Market) so it only needs 9 populations points to sustain itself.

Why Slavery? At this point capitulating Mehmed is harder than getting our 2 GPs.

On t228 we whip UN and revolt back to Caste from where it's easy to have the Madras GP come out on t232. Delhi can make its GP 2 turns from that (t234), from there it's a 1-turn trek to Fur island with 5 galleons and 2-turns to get on the Fur (t236).
See this post for short explanation.

2. Absolutely. Also after war is declared on Mehmed, we will gift techs that add power to all our vassals to raise the power average of all civs to make capitulation easier.

3. I was torn about this for a long time. The observatory will be done in 3 turns and be active for 4 turns (~160 beakers for 100 more hammers) (I was expecting it to be done in 2 turns but somewhere along it didn't quite work out and we're behind on hammers a bit).
After I have tried a test run (or 2...) from the new test game, I will decide if we can/should scrap it (in favor of HM or wealth or something else)
There are already 2 HMs on Fur island so we only need 1 more HM for Vijay (if successful of course).
We will liberate the cities that have not Hinduism right after voting for UN is done (t237).

~~~

I can probably finish the remaining 17 turns of the game, most likely in 2 sets (up to t228 = build UN and after war is started) -> within the week!

About test game: most cities are very accurate, although I did not check for stored hammers.

 

[kossin]

Test:

Well that was fun.
War launched t225.
Mehmed capitulated t226 after I took 2 cities!! lol!! Of course in the real game we need to pop a GG but that should not be too difficult I imagine [as I recall we're 29 xp from one EDIT: it's actually 23 from an earlier screenshot we have].

Had sufficient funds to finance research as well (was left with about 500 gold)

GPs out as expected t232 and t234.

 

[dingding]

Is there any possibility to finish a Palace on time in Devilgate?

Then the free GM from economy can pop directly on the island.

 

[kossin]

Maybe via whipping, but I don't see the need too much. It could be an insurance for the GG I suppose but I'm already trying to cover that with boat movement.

I will re-update the test game tomorrow and try to fix the GG exp with Privateers so we can better simulate how long it could take to get the GG in place (the only hard spot being Agra-Lahore, Madurai is 2 turns from Fur Island and everything else is close to the galleon bridge
except Hyderabad so I will move the Carabel over there.

 

[Bugg123]

Ok.. time for a quick report.

I started off a bit on the wrong foot. Galleons were auto-moving according to old plan towards Aksoum, so we lost one turn of movement for our Stone-site with the galleon bridge. We got to settle it, though, and I don't think it'll matter much.

Took the barb-island without losses and got a lot of workers (5, I think). Had to clear out a lot of axes, archers and workers, so the final maces are a bit late for their return. Island should be safe now.

Vassaled Sal T219 but kinda forgot to liberate Madurai. I realized just as I was going to bed, really .. So we've paid 2 turns of upkeep for some extra beakers. Sorry

As kossin noted, the AP was built by Justinian on T219. Hopefully that's not an issue.

Traded for whatever gold I could get, got Engineering T219, held off on guilds hoping Sal could also cough up some gold, which didn't happen.

Other than that it was just moving troops as much as possible, following the specialist plan.

What I did see from Meh troops (I wish we hadn't gotten hit by the demand) is noted in the save.

Gaziantep : T212 Garrison was LB+Axe
Diyarbakir: T215 Garrison was 2xLB
Istanbul: T214 Garrison was 2xLB+Spear

In addition a small stack of Axe, Sword and 2xChar were guarding a worker on the hill W of Istanbul.
Istanbul has walls, and we should assume max fortify bonus on all LBs.
Meh's gold was spent somewhere after he got guilds, so he probably upgraded to knights.

The Galleon NW of Cordoba is auto-moving towards Aksoum, while one is automoving for 2S1E Madrid with maces from Barbs. The Caravel is automoving towards fort with the GG.

I hope that covers it. Don't have much time. Sorry for the lack of screenshots. Maybe I should have taken shots of the trades and such (trading drama for gold, Music for Gold mostly so far,and took a few new trades. The AI are really too poor.

 

[Bugg123]

@kossin:

3. I don't know exactly how and why Dehli is behind on the observatory. We'll see if you need it. I guess we're only 7 turns away on research, so it's not key. If we don't need the gold from wealth, we might as well build it, I guess.. there's time for HMs and extra power after that if we want it. You'll figure it out!

The safe way for GPs is to only 2xbulb Electricity (delaying victory by 2 turns). If you are left with ~500g that should work out too. 23 exp to next GG should be doable however ... testing for worst case GG spawn (both in time and position) would be useful.

Running the Caravel to Hyder would be good. We also have a spare Galley outside of Lahore (just a reminder).

@dingding:
The Palace idea is interesting. We'll see. We can get banking from Meh, so Economics is close. I'm not even sure we need the palace on Barb-island for that. Econ should be about 2-3 turns of research. Capping Meh T230 and getting banking would allow the GM from Econ to join final shipments on Galleon-bridge.

 

[kossin]

@Bugg

Thanks for the report. It really doesn't matter about OB tbh, in 3 turns we'll have airships over there and I can see all of Mehmed's territory.

Madurai we can either gift now or keep until t230 where we gift it (10 turns after Saladin was vassaled so there should be no chance of breaking off.)

About Economics:
This is only considerable if we get Meh to capitulate before we get the GG (i.e. in 2 turns like my test). As a result, I would have Saladin research not Gunpowder but Banking so we can get Economics faster.

Getting the Palace on the Fur Island is kinda hard but possible as you say. It's probably not worth it though as we can likely land Economics around t232 which equals the GM in Delhi 2 turns before Delhi's last required GP (also as you said!).

It's not really needed but I guess we should do it as a fail-safe just in case something goes wrong.

I'll try to write a general plan (in a little bit) concerning war(+final preparations)-GPP-some troop movement. Worker and city micro I'll leave out as they're not important.

 

[Bugg123]

@kossin

Good.. looking forward to the plan (and to finally get this thing over with ).

Meh will have banking in 2 turns, so we should be safe to get that regardless.

 

[kossin]

@Bugg
Yes we can get it from Meh but we don't know when Meh will capitulate.

Theory of getting every last beaker possible: the goal is to maximize [science+gold] output in each city. (with a slight edge on gold as we have sufficient science already)
t221 I will max out Merchants where possible to get one last boost of cash income.
Cities building wealth are better running specialists than coast, even citizen specialists.
Trade for every penny available on the F4 screen. [we should have enough gold but I want to be ready for any emergency-upgrade]

I will keep Madurai until t230 where Saladin won't get a chance to break free before he has voted for us.

Expected set length:
Until t228~t230 (UN whipped or earlier if GG born & Meh Capitulated but I'd like to finish research of MM at the very least)

Spoiler :

Split troops in 2 stacks:
East: 1 5xp Catapult [no walls on that side], 2 regular catapults, 2~3WE, 2 CR3 Maces, 5~6 lesser Maces
West: the rest
8 Airships in Santiago/Toledo, anything left up north in silk city.

Gift Compass, Engineering, Guilds to Izzy/Zara and anyone lacking it to raise power average.

Caravel goes to Hyderabad after unloading GG.
Lahore galley placed 2N of Lahore in case GG born in Agra.
Galleons/Galleys finish shipping troops to Barcelona and also 3 warriors to Fur Island. (will build a 4th there in Fur Island later)
After that: 1 Galleon sits next to Madurai (in case GG is born there: 2 turn trip to Fur Island)
2 Galleons sit in middle of ocean to start forming the 5-galleon bridge, 2 galleys move around Gondar waiting for being upgraded then placed accordingly

t221
Saladin set to research Banking (then GP)
Trade for Guilds

3x bulb Electricity

Adjust specialists to: not starve [except Madras] and get max merchants worked. Cities 1-2 turns from growing will be allowed to do so

2 workers road towards Konya for 1-turn movement to city.
1 worker road toward Ankara (1 road missing)

Delhi starts on wealth, runs 3 scientists while stagnating [after I am certain gold is sufficient I will make a few HMs to spread religion in Vijay]

6 cities (including Vijay) will start on Airships to be whipped next turn -> this depends on the stored hammers in the game. Preferably I will select cities with the worst tiles available and with Forges.

Patali Coast->Priest for 1 turn to finish the Harbor in time (-2F of Priest is gained back next turn with +3 health that negates unhealthy, but adds commerce)

Agra grow to size 5 using the grassland instead of coast (want to work 3 golds, marble and crabs)

t222
Liberalism>Radio
Spread Hindu on Fur Island
Revolt to Slavery

whip 6 Airships (OF to another set of 6 Airships)

Patali priest->coast, build wealth

Agra 3 gold, marble, scientist

Madras works 5 specialists and lake-deer-fish

re-adjust every city to maximize gold+science output

t223
Research Mass Media

t224
Whip last Airships
Scout Meh with Airships, adjust stacks if needed

t225
Build wealth pretty much everywhere (keep OF for WEs in a little bit)

t226
Depending on Units health, war can be launched this turn (all Airships are in place).

t227
Launch war if not done already (capture 2 cities if already at war)
Trade for Banking with Saladin (should be done around here). Set him on GP.

t228
Can gift Madurai to Justinian this turn

Mass Media done start Economics (~3 turns)

Delhi 907 GPP
Madras 1200 GPP
Patali size 21, starts UN -> rush with GE+whip

revolt to Caste+Nationhood+Mercantilism

Madras 10 specialists [starve]
Delhi 4 specialists

t229
Delhi 6 specialists
Madras 9 specialists [starve]
Galleons for bridge should be in position by now or moving to their designed locations.

t230
Madras 8 specialists [starve] 1428GPP +72 = GP born
Delhi max scientists (15)

t231
Economics in
Upgrade galleys->galleons if not done already
Madras GP in
Delhi 1473/1800 GPP [2 turns]

t232
...

t233
Delhi GP born, ship together with 2 other GPs to Fur island via Galleon bridge

t234-t236
...

t237
Vote for us in UN
Gift all cities back to Mehmed
Gift Madurai to Justinian if not done already

t238 [920AD]
Win
Save+upload while ticking box for final save

I'm sorry I don't have more precision on troop movement, it's pretty hard to judge that by the test game. If you want more clarification ask and I'll try to be more specific

 

[kossin]

Offtopic: Congratulations to Duckweed for yet another gold medal (what a streak!) in BOTM30!

 

[Bugg123]

I think the plan looks good. We have tested the endgame here pretty extensively, I'd say

Looks like you got everything covered. I trust your troop/workermoves/spec assignments, so no problem.

Technically we only need a 4 galleon bridge from Dehli to our fort on Barb-island, I guess, other than that, I say go for it

I suppose WIII Warrior is in mainstack, and the healt-mace in the other (although I'm sure I didn't need to say that..). As for stack composition, you're a more competent warmonger than me, so whatever composition/adjustment you make, I'm ok with.

There's probably some reinforcements coming in the way of WEs at some point too, right?

I'm not sure you even have to stop, but I guess for dramatic effect it'd be nice to get at T228ish stop to see how things are going

Good luck!

 

[Bugg123]

Yikes... Duckweed's on a roll .. Duckweed = too good Congrats!

 

[kossin]

I think the plan looks good. We have tested the endgame here pretty extensively, I'd say

Aye, I've done tons of tests, I lost count of the hours taken. Can't begin to fathom how much you tested...

Looks like you got everything covered. I trust your troop/workermoves/spec assignments, so no problem.

Technically we only need a 4 galleon bridge from Dehli to our fort on Barb-island, I guess, other than that, I say go for it

Good point! 4 galleons are enough as unloading next turn still allows to start moving.

I suppose WIII Warrior is in mainstack, and the healt-mace in the other (although I'm sure I didn't need to say that..). As for stack composition, you're a more competent warmonger than me, so whatever composition/adjustment you make, I'm ok with.

Yes, forgot to mention that. Final adjustments will be made after I get the whole picture of Mehmed troops.

There's probably some reinforcements coming in the way of WEs at some point too, right?

Besides the ones in Aksum and maybe a few chopped in Madrid/Barcelona? No, I think those should be sufficient.

I'm not sure you even have to stop, but I guess for dramatic effect it'd be nice to get at T228ish stop to see how things are going

Good luck!

Yea well I'll probably want to take a rest in the middle somewhere to make sure I haven't done anything stupid. Also it would look good on the score graph if Mehmed is vassaled +all those expensive techs

 

[dingding]

Seems good. Proceed!

In case Meh will not surrender, we may revolt to Nationhood to draft. That's after T228 anyway, so play as you well.

 

[kossin]

Yes NH is planned for t228.

I will probably play the first part tomorrow and the next the day after but you never know...

 

[dingding]

I tend to consider that "you never know" means you wanna play today!