SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

Against. Z is too productive to shrink it just to let others grow. workers can come from less productive towns. Z should be a 4-turn-sf for the next ~1000 years.

I'm not sure why you think I said it should shrink. On the contrary it should grow. As for a sf, where do you propose to put these new towns? We have two more locations on our map. And workers should come from food-rich towns. I haven't done the math but I expect it should be able to turn out two workers and an archer every four turns. I call that productive. It has a barracks. Use it.

Yes, FP should come soon. Given our current exploration, I'm not too sure that we should build the Lighthouse. We can reach 5 civs without it, maybe we do not need it at all or gamble on one of those five building it?

FP I consider more important. Start it as soon as we have enough units to keep our nasty barbies in check.

We don't want to build any more reg units. We already have two barracks with more on the way. Start a wonder in Isa immediately. I expect you're right that we will want it to be the FP but the decision doesn't have to be made yet. Z should grow the town. Other than at Ngome, the barb situation isn't that bad anyway.

 

[Paul#42]

I'm not sure why you think I said it should shrink. On the contrary it should grow. As for a sf, where do you propose to put these new towns? We have two more locations on our map. And workers should come from food-rich towns. I haven't done the math but I expect it should be able to turn out two workers and an archer every four turns. I call that productive. It has a barracks. Use it.

Of settlers and workers, settler is the more precious unit. We have plenty of towns to settle in probably corrupt areas. You'd rather want them to be founded later, whenever a nearby town can sqeeze out a settler?
Maybe that's smarter, you might be right. Did not do the math either...
Anyway, a horse and two workers every four turns would be nicer...

Start a wonder in Isa immediately. I expect you're right that we will want it to be the FP but the decision doesn't have to be made yet. Z should grow the town. Other than at Ngome, the barb situation isn't that bad anyway.

Yep.

 

[Abegweit]

Of settlers and workers, settler is the more precious unit. We have plenty of towns to settle in probably corrupt areas.

The problem is that our corrupt areas are very bad territory and have very little potential. We get a better ROI by growing the ones we do have. I'm not even sure we should settle them at all. Some cities on the Indian side of the peninsula may be partially usuable if we don't destroy them with needless rank corruption. In that regard, it may be better to build the FP over there. More on that here. Start at post 65.

Anyway, a horse and two workers every four turns would be nicer...

Me too, but 50 shields is a lot in four turns. Maybe during GA

 

[Andronicus]

Me too, but 50 shields is a lot in four turns. Maybe during GA

If we're really keen building a horse in 3 turns at size 5, then 3 workers for 6turn horse, 3 worker factory is possible after duct.

 

[Paul#42]

In that regard, it may be better to build the FP over there. More on that here. Start at post 65.

I remember that discussion back then. Yet I don't remember the result eg. how was corruption in the towns around the FP town. Could anybody check a save fom then? I just remember it was quite a pain to handbuild it

If it has some effect on nearby towns I would like to build the FP in Ulundi. It's the central town in our most productive area. And hand building it should go quite quickly.

 

[Abegweit]

I don't see why we need the duct. Mining the goat is sufficient. Start at size 3.5.

Edit: in fact I don't know how the duct helps at all. You can't do this w/o mining the goat because otherwise you can't produce a one-turn worker at size 6.

 

[Andronicus]

given the current threat (and our current RNG-luck ) I would suggest to draw the archer out of N killing the barb on grass and head for the camp, not looking back. Establish some embassies to shorten the money we lose to 3-4 pillaging barbs...

Agree leaving Ngome empty whilst head for barb camp with archers
Currently we have almost 250g on hand with just over 300g required for embassies with all known AI. We could est embassies with all bar 1.
Not sure that we want to bankrupt ourselves though.



On a very different topic I suggest a delay before next turnset as our first save after revolt will tell other teams when we got slingshot (though not which sling we got). We can see from charts that no team has had a culture dip yet, but only 1 team has played turns ahead of us. (culture graph also shows that Team Newbie were only ones to settle in place, whilst Pythons moved 2 tiles - to where?)

 

[Abegweit]

I remember that discussion back then. Yet I don't remember the result eg. how was corruption in the towns around the FP town. Could anybody check a save fom then? I just remember it was quite a pain to handbuild it If it has some effect on nearby towns I would like to build the FP in Ulundi. It's the central town in our most productive area. And hand building it should go quite quickly.

There are two components to corruption: rank corruption and distance corruption. Rank corruption is the more important of the two.

Rank corruption is counted by the number of cities which are nearer to the capital than the city itself. We currently have eight cities so, if our next city is built in India, it will have rank 8 (or is it 9?), which is very acceptable.

The second component is distance corruption, which is counted by the distance to the nearest palace-like structure. Hlobane is currently at distance 7 from the palace. If we build the FP in either Isa or Ulindi, that would be marginally improved to 5. I chose Isa because it doesn't currently have a task assigned. Ulindi has both a granary and a barracks. It needs to build soldiers (and the occasional worker).

If we decide to build it in the core, it makes very little difference where we build it since the cities are all close together. Delhi, though, is at distance 20 from the capital and would be helped a LOT by an FP nearby. If we avoid building many more cities with higher rank, it would be quite productive.

If we get an early leader (Lord knows we're due for one) I would strongly suggest using it for the FP.

 

[Andronicus]

I don't see why we need the duct. Mining the goat is sufficient. Start at size 3.5.

I think you mean start at 4.5
I just finally realised it will work at size 4.5 by using mHill and iGrass

Turn 1 size 4.5 iCow, mGoat, mBG, mGrass -> 8sh + 3 on growth -> 11
Turn 2 size 5.0 iCow, mGoat, mBG, mGrass, mGrass -> 9 sh (20)
Turn 3 size 5.5 iCow, mGoat, mBG, mGrass, mGrass -> 9sh +3 -> 12 (horse)
Turn 4 size 6.0 iCow, MGoat, mBG, mGrass, mGrass, mGrass -> 10 (worker)
Turn 5 size 5.5 iCow, mGoat, mBG, mGrass, mGrass -> 9sh +3 -> 12 (worker)
Turn 6 size 5.0 iCow, mGoat, mBG, mHill, iGrass -> 10sh -> worker

Further MM should remove shield wastage perhaps sharing goats with Ulundi
Edit - this is not to say we should do it, just that we could

 

[Abegweit]

Agree leaving Ngome empty whilst head for barb camp with archers
Currently we have almost 250g on hand with just over 300g required for embassies with all known AI. We could est embassies with all bar 1.
Not sure that we want to bankrupt ourselves though.

I'd rather try to defend the city with an Impi from Ulindi. And maybe a whipped one from Z? Whipping is fine when you are about to go into anarchy. This situation has been there for several turns and the barbs haven't been doing much. There hasn't been even one attack. We don't need more than a couple of embassies and it seems a shame to throw away all the cash.

Edit: If the city does fall, and I don't see why it should, we can always setup the embassies then. Furthermore a warrior from Z would be better. No need to whip.

 

[Abegweit]

I think you mean start at 4.5
I just finally realised it will work at size 4.5 by using mHill and iGrass

Turn 1 size 4.5 iCow, mGoat, mBG, mGrass -> 8sh + 3 on growth -> 11
Turn 2 size 5.0 iCow, mGoat, mBG, mGrass, mGrass -> 9 sh (20)
Turn 3 size 5.5 iCow, mGoat, mBG, mGrass, mGrass -> 9sh +3 -> 12 (horse)
Turn 4 size 6.0 iCow, MGoat, mBG, mGrass, mGrass, mGrass -> 10 (worker)
Turn 5 size 5.5 iCow, mGoat, mBG, mGrass, mGrass -> 9sh +3 -> 12 (worker)
Turn 6 size 5.0 iCow, mGoat, mBG, mHill, iGrass -> 10sh -> worker

Further MM should remove shield wastage perhaps sharing goats with Ulundi
Edit - this is not to say we should do it, just that we could

Yes. I meant size 4.5 although I missed what had to happen at the last step. If there's a BG under the forest, that works too. I suspect we want to do this, although it's a long time away. Other side of GA, perhaps 40 turns from now. The alternative is aqueduct and grow.

Edit: four-turn archer-worker-worker is similar so the horse sequence would be better.

 

[I. Larkin]

No need to shout like that . Our path for now is a compromise between rrex and fast science. Having few big towns would have helped with the first few techs, but in the long run we will need those towns we founded instead. Well, I belive, in general, that my critics is valid an valuble. Normally sling needs 1400 BC at Emperor. But we were lucky... We had no pressure to settel like we did. We could do it after sling. OK, lets continue the game. Reading your posts.

 

[Paul#42]

If we decide to build it in the core, it makes very little difference where we build it since the cities are all close together. Delhi, though, is at distance 20 from the capital and would be helped a LOT by an FP nearby. If we avoid building many more cities with higher rank, it would be quite productive.

So this would mean we should not ICS inside a ring around our capital through the FP-town?
I'll have to reach Alexman's article about corruption again...

If we get an early leader (Lord knows we're due for one) I would strongly suggest using it for the FP.

We are due, but that won't help us against Murphy.
Even if we get one I would rather use him for an army and let HE follow soon. We will want lots of more of those guys...

We do not want to wait for our luck. So we will start building it anyway. If too many MGL show up we can still switch to GL and rush FP somewhere else...

 

[Paul#42]

Well, I belive, in general, that my critics is valid an valuble.

I think so, too, but your critics also sound quite harsh sometimes - don't know if it's intentional. Abegweit also responded quite harsh this time.

Normally sling needs 1400 BC at Emperor. But we were lucky... We had no pressure to settel like we did. We could do it after sling. OK, lets continue the game. Reading your posts.

But how many towns do you own "normally" when getting the sling? I guess you "normally" have more food around. It's been quite a long time since I played a game with one "easy" food surplus and another two "hard to get" food surplus. This is not an average C3C-game.

 

[I. Larkin]

I recon that FP at c3c is not that good as in civ3 classic. In FP City COTM28 corruption was about 15%, but in ditance 2(!) (I had this ugly location) it was 50%?!
But how many towns do you own "normally" when getting the sling? I guess you "normally" have more food around. It's been quite a long time since I played a game with one "easy" food surplus and another two "hard to get" food surplus. This is not an average C3C-game.
2-3, 4 at max. I thought that here we had to be even faster... Well, I only played 3 C3c games, none is complited yet.

 

[Abegweit]

So this would mean we should not ICS inside a ring around our capital through the FP-town?

This is correct. Other than a city on the gold mine to the south-east, there are no useful farm towns around here anyway.

We do not want to wait for our luck. So we will start building it anyway. If too many MGL show up we can still switch to GL and rush FP somewhere else...

Agreed totally. The main point for the moment is that we have little need for new cities and would be better served by growing the ones we have already. And Isa should still start a wonder.

 

[Paul#42]

I recon that FP at c3c is not that good as in civ3 classic. In FP City COTM28 corruption was about 15%, but in ditance 2(!) (I had this ugly location) it was 50%?!

I suggest you read Alexman's article on corruption (C3C edition) from the war academy. I'll do it
You'll love it, it's full of formulas

2-3, 4 at max. I thought that here we had to be even faster... Well, I only played 3 C3c games, none is complited yet.

I bet you were starting with Alpha, then.

 

[I. Larkin]

I would not be surprised at all to find that we get a rep hit. I asked AllanH about that explicitly. Answer was "No".

 

[I. Larkin]

I suggest you read Alexman's article on corruption from the war academy. I'll do it
You'll love it, it's full of formulas I read. But it contradict to what I see...

 

[Abegweit]

I recon that FP at c3c is not that good as in civ3 classic. In FP City COTM28 corruption was about 15%, but in ditance 2(!) (I had this ugly location) it was 50%?!

The C3C has two effects other than the one I mentioned above: it reduces corruption in the city itself. With a court, it will only be at most 10% corrupt. And it increases the OCN by 25%.

If the rank corruption is high enough, being close to the FP won't help - as you found out.

2-3, 4 at max. I thought that here we had to be even faster... Well, I only played 3 C3c games, none is complited yet.

You're sacrificing a lot for no gain. REX is what counts. You seem to be able to get the sling as fast your way as through REX but what kind of shape will your empire be in? I doubt you really can but even so... We are currently sitting at +18 food. What would we be at with 2 - 4 cities. 5-10 maybe? This way we are growing twice to three times as fast.

Spoiler start in COTM28 :

This game is nothing like COTM28 either, which I'm sure you are referring to. Here the capital has 1 commerce in its two best tiles. In that game, it had four. And the second city had six.
Edit: and as Paul pointed out, we started with Alpha