SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

If Cleo sends her AC directly to empty Memphis (what I would place a remarkable bet on ), it would spend the interturn on the grass tiles before Memphis on the very first (and last) turn of its mayfly's life (crossing river = (1 mv), moving road to forest (1/3 mv), step on tile N or NW of Memphis. this might be the easiest way to pick off the AC.
Or am I wrong about crossing the river costing 1.0 movement? I'm always insecure if free crossing comes with Construction or later In that case an Impi on the forest might cause the AC to take the long way around with the same effect.
And as a special goody, stepping on Indian soil would trigger several MPs to our favor.

If we pillage the Iron (or have an Impi sit on it?), Cleo gets no pike but a spear if she manages to sneak by and capture it.

And finally this might distract her (and Osman's) forces from Heli and give us some breath there.

It might be worth a try.

Free river crossing comes with engineering, which she probably has. Getting Feud should have given her the ability to trade for it - to the Turks, for example.

It is going to be difficult to defend both cities as there is no road between them. This is true whether we gift one away or not.

Upon due reflection, I have to say that the main objection to gifting Memphis away is that Helio may flip, leaving us w/o any iron at all In fact, there is a fairly decent chance of both cities flipping before we get the army. What we really need is our own city there, as I suggested before Ivan jumped the gun for second time.

Here's my suggestion: gift away Heliopolis and abandon Memphis. Pillage Helio's iron first. When she re-takes Helio, it will auto-raze since it never had any Egyptian culture (I am right that this happens?). In any case, it will take her time to re-connect the iron. Rush a settler out of Bapedi and place it sw on Memphis. It can be founded seven turns from now and the warriors upgraded at the same time. In the meantime the units in Egypt should hunker down and wait, probably on the iron mountain.

 

[Paul#42]

gift away Heliopolis and abandon Memphis. Pillage Helio's iron first.

That seems to be the lowest-risk-option. Fine with me.

When she re-takes Helio, it will auto-raze since it never had any Egyptian culture (I am right that this happens?).

I think so although the machine keeps surprising me on issues like that...
We have to try I think. Letting Cleo attack Gandhi is a good move right now.
Gandhi's allies will send units and will only face Cleo till they enter her land. That could help distracting her "forces".

In any case, it will take her time to re-connect the iron. Rush a settler out of Bapedi and place it sw on Memphis. It can be founded seven turns from now and the warriors upgraded at the same time. In the meantime the units in Egypt should hunker down and wait, probably on the iron mountain.

The iron mountain would be out of Cleo's culture, so our units could heal... It should be the safest place on earth for them

 

[I. Larkin]

No. Crazy idea. Utterly crazy. What possibly would be the point?
Please, read carefully what I wrote.

 

[I. Larkin]

As I said, the ONLY reasonable way to use the leader is to build an MDI army.

 

[Abegweit]

I have deleted that post as it was over the limit.

It is up to you to decide whether you can act as a member of a team or not.

 

[Paul#42]

Ivan, what makes us overlook some of your remarks is the effort to read your posts.

It starts with structure and layout. I had prompted you to use common quotation technique which is even supported by the system. You still use your Italics or even just quotation marks to quote others, that makes a post hard to read and supports overlooking important points.
You tend to use words and shortcuts that differ from common usage. Sometimes it might be a spelling error, sometimes it has a meaning. Tough to tell, exhausting to read. If you paid more attention to spelling and language, we would have less trouble to follow your reasoning. I do not consider it too much effort to correct a "paly" to play (#461). Small effort for you, big effect on our attention.

Your logs are complete now - thanks - but still you don't try to make them better readable for others. Please compare your log in post #512 to Abegweit's last in #473. Do you see a difference? I do.

You have improved, most of your posts handling several points have gained some structure. You use highlighting techniques. But there is still room for improvement.

Communication in this team is extensive. You have to decide if you want to do this effort and ease communication with us or risk further misunderstandings.

 

[I. Larkin]

Ivan, what makes us overlook some of your remarks is the effort to read your posts.


Your logs are complete now - thanks - but still you don't try to make them better readable for others. Please compare your log in post #512 to Abegweit's last in #473. Do you see a difference? I do.

Communication in this team is extensive. You have to decide if you want to do this effort and ease communication with us or risk further misunderstandings.

I have no idea why post do not transfer tabel from Doc file. There is a clear table of turnlog in u2.doc file attached.
However, now situation went far to far to pay attantion to this minor issue. I am waiting for AlanH and Abegweit reaction.

 

[Paul#42]

I have no idea why post do not transfer tabel from Doc file. There is a clear table of turnlog in u2.doc file attached.
However, now situation went far to far to pay attantion to this minor issue. I am waiting for AlanH and Abegweit reaction.

Yes, lack of diplomacy on both sides in the past might make any further team playing impossible. I regret that.

 

[Abegweit]

However, now situation went far to far to pay attantion to this minor issue. I am waiting for AlanH and Abegweit reaction.

I have already given mine. I have retracted both of my posts. They were intemperate and they overstepped my bounds.

You are free to make whatever decision you want.

I will say that, had this been any SG other than an SGOTM, I would have left it long ago. It is no fun to play with somone who refuses to act as a member of a team.

 

[Abegweit]

Use of abusive language does not promote reasoned debate, and is liable to get you banned.

I have already retracted this and it won't happen again.

If, after discussion, any player seriously disagrees with the rest of the team on how to play the game, or on how to organise the team, then they have two choices:

- Learn to live with the rest of the team and abide by their decisions.
- Leave the team.

Actually there is a third choice - which is the problem.

 

[I. Larkin]

deleted 111111

 

[markh]

@Abegweit : I am listening. I know my mm is not that well, but I try improving it and I learned a lot from you guys, so I really care about it.

Well, I finally had a look at the save.

Memphis has a flip chance of 18%, so I would not even try to quell the resistance. I would let the leader build the army in Memphis and move all units on the iron mountain. All in all I do not think that we can hold our position there for long. I see an Ottoman horse there, so I think more are to come and I do not see enough reinforcements to be able to hold both cities. I see 5 horses in the fighting area and 2 or three to come in the next 2 turns. Not much, but I would not gift it to Gandhi. Then I would disband it.

 

[Abegweit]

First of all I will wait for unconditional apologies. PM is acceptable though insult was “in public” and directed clear to me.

You really are arrogant, aren't you? You will not get any apologies from me, other than for my choice of language. That has already been taken care of.

Next turnsets I will play without breaks thoroughly.

Threats like this are precisely why you won't get one.

It looks that Abegweit’s English is native. My not.

And your English is not the problem. As evidenced by this post, you are quite capable of expressing yourself in the language when you bother to.

 

[Abegweit]

@Abegweit : I am listening. I know my mm is not that well, but I try improving it and I learned a lot from you guys, so I really care about it.

Your mm is indeed improving. I can see the difference over the games we've played together. I made that particular suggestion because it is counter-intuitive and I noticed that you had often done the opposite. Like everything in civ, it's not always the case though.

Memphis has a flip chance of 18%, so I would not even try to quell the resistance. I would let the leader build the army in Memphis and move all units on the iron mountain. All in all I do not think that we can hold our position there for long. I see an Ottoman horse there, so I think more are to come and I do not see enough reinforcements to be able to hold both cities. I see 5 horses in the fighting area and 2 or three to come in the next 2 turns. Not much, but I would not gift it to Gandhi. Then I would disband it.

Agreed. It should be abandoned. But gifting a city to Gandhi is still desirable. What do you think of my suggestion in post #541?

 

[I. Larkin]

[deleted1111111

 

[markh]

It should be abandoned. But gifting a city to Gandhi is still desirable. What do you think of my suggestion in post #541?

Sounds like a plan. Why do we want to gift Helio at all ? I have not checked the diplomatic situation exactly. I guess that this should ensure that India's partners step into the war with Egypt, otherwise this would be a very complicated way to get rid of that town.

Something I forgot to mention. I want an MDI army.

 

[markh]

Dear Alan, you see the situation.

1) I think to demand apologies for "F..k U" is not too arrogant. The text above shows that Abegweit is not sorry at all.
2) It is normal in SGOTM that team member play 10 turns without stops. This is normal practice, not a threats.

To continue game I see only one possibility: I will not read what Abegweit write unless other team members pass Abegweit's posts to me after removing insulting things.
Abegweit may do the same, but from now on I will write minimum.

1) As far as I understood it Abegweit deleted the posts himself, so he knew that it was not right and he clearly mentioned that. Any further pointing on this is not worth a line here.

2) I disagree. In both SGOTM teams and other SGs I played in it was common to stop if there are important decisions to make. If you decide to play your 10 turns and make important decisions for the team without consulting you will have to live with the possible criticism of the other team members.

If you do not read Abegweit's posts and he does not read your posts and we other 3 members would have to pass on posts between you two this is complete nonsense and this would be unbearable for the further play.

 

[Paul#42]

1) I think to demand apologies for "F..k U" is not too arrogant. The text above shows that Abegweit are not sorry at all.

2) It is normal in SGOTM that team member play 10 turns without stops. This is normal practice, not a threats.

It is normal to play the whole set if nothing special occurs. Abegweit stopped after the turn 0 of his last set to tell us Cleo built SoZ. It was not really a break to wait for a team decision but it was a stop.
I stopped my play several times (twice?), described the situation and waited for input. Abegweit had one decision in the first set that he described as "clearcut", I told him I had thought differently about it. All other turnsets were almost eventless.
In this particular turnset you started to play before we even discussed the situation and plans. It is not only Abegweit's fault that he did not show his plan, but even more yours to not talk about it. The situation had a big question mark written all over it. As you will clearly see, the attack on Heli was a big mistake and it could have been avoided easily by talking about it! After you stopped (which was good and necessary) we talked again and you did another premature attempt without waiting for further discussion. So I understand why Abegweit was embarrassed.

To continue game I see only one possibility: I will not read what Abegweit write unless other team members pass Abegweit's posts to me after removing insulting things.
Abegweit may do the same, but from now on I will write minimum.

Do you really think a game should be played like that?

Both of you behave like defiant children. Continuing like that will be a pain for the whole team and a laughter for the audience. I definetely do not want to play like you described. Is this your final word on this issue?

I can imagine your situation. I was new to this team on SGotm 10. I was the Rookie, I knew I had to ask more than the others, I thought twice on every little decision I took on my own. I can't see too much of that in your behavior. If you are new to an environment, you have to adopt to it. I miss that to a large extent. This is very much part of team capability.

Sorry, I have to make a break here, my wife demands attention...

I will coninue my thoughts later. Feel free to comment.

 

[I. Larkin]

1) If Cleo sends her AC directly to empty Memphis (what I would place a remarkable bet on ), it would spend the interturn on the grass tiles before Memphis on the very first (and last) turn of its mayfly's life (crossing river = (1 mv), moving road to forest (1/3 mv), step on tile N or NW of Memphis. this might be the easiest way to pick off the AC.
2) Or am I wrong about crossing the river costing 1.0 movement? I'm always insecure if free crossing comes with Construction or later In that case an Impi on the forest might cause the AC to take the long way around with the same effect.
3) And as a special goody, stepping on Indian soil would trigger several MPs to our favor.

4) If we pillage the Iron (or have an Impi sit on it?), Cleo gets no pike but a spear if she manages to sneak by and capture it.

5) And finally this might distract her (and Osman's) forces from Heli and give us some breath there.

It might be worth a try.

I am afraid we need more time to reach consensus. I like above plan and agree with MDI army.
1) we can gift Memphis at the end of this turn or at next turn.
2) Cleo have Eng, so no penalty for river crossing. It is important to know who moves first. india or Egypt.
3) That was obvious initial idea. There are many variants like to gift Heli and Palace in Memphis, or FP in Heli, or gift Heli. + Pillage/not Pillage Iron.
I stoped here to discuss and pick up the best variant. Even to summarize all of them difficult task.
4) If City flip and Iron connected it will be pickman. Even If Impy on Iron. If pillaged then not. If captured nobogy appear "at onse"
5) Yes, and some "allied battle". I like it.
BTW, in Vanila Emperor it gifted City get Spear or Pickman. Not sure about
C3C

 

[I. Larkin]

1)
It is normal to play the whole set if nothing special occurs. Abegweit stopped after the turn 0 of his last set to tell us Cleo built SoZ. It was not really a break to wait for a team decision but it was a stop.
I stopped my play several times (twice?), described the situation and waited for input. Abegweit had one decision in the first set that he described as "clearcut", I told him I had thought differently about it. All other turnsets were almost eventless.
2)
In this particular turnset you started to play before we even discussed the situation and plans. It is not only Abegweit's fault that he did not show his plan, but even more yours to not talk about it. The situation had a big question mark written all over it. As you will clearly see, the attack on Heli was a big mistake and it could have been avoided easily by talking about it! After you stopped (which was good and necessary) we talked again and you did another premature attempt without waiting for further discussion. So I understand why Abegweit was embarrassed.
3)


4)
Both of you behave like defiant children. Continuing like that will be a pain for the whole team and a laughter for the audience. I definetely do not want to play like you described. Is this your final word on this issue?

1) It was an advise to start war at this or next turn. Troops was concentrated near Heli and for me it was a "clearcut".
When I stop, and wait longer then anybody else, I am waiting for constructive advise, not like: "you again go in wrong direction".
2) I am not sure that it was that bad decision as you may think. I think Flip Probability of Thebes is 90% or so. Iron connected, Feo appeared third turn It will flip and get Pickman... I have an experience.
Now we at least have supply line and 2 City to "manipulate".
3-4) I am not going to step back here. Abegweit's post was on net more then 7 hours and lot of people could see it. Abegweit removed this post only when ensure, when I read it. In real life this s..t happend, and if people have to continue buisiness they have to interact via midleman. If nobody want to continue game in this mode fine : it will not be continued.