SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[I. Larkin]

Please take your personal differences to private messages. They are not helpful or relevant for the rest of the team or for other readers.

Sorry, Allan, I sent PM to you, but did not get a reply.

 

[Paul#42]

I'm not sure if we should go on playing before the quarrel is settled.
I evaluate this as a try to resume business as usual.

So I comment on game issues and watch how you guys behave...
(I wrote this after reading #560 before all those other posts happened. I now think we should first clear the situation.)

You are right about 4) of course. No free unit in a captured town. Also in a gifted, I'm quite sure.
Abegweit convinced me that it would be safer to gift Heli and raze Memphis. Our units might spent some turns (7) on the mountain breathing fresh air and waiting for reinforcements. Maybe some reg horses and archers show up. They can be picked up easily for some further promotions. Thebes might even build a settler to fill the gap

So my next steps would be:
1) Sell barracks in Heli, move horse out there on galley (unload vet horse on mountain, add Impi). Gift Heli to Gandhi.
2) Move MGL to Memphis, build army, move it to iron mountain. Move all other units there, raze Memphis.
3) move worker on Iron source, preferably the one on the horses near Swazi. Make colony next turn.
4) Move all three vet warriors near Umfolozi there to upgrade next turn. Send MDI to Egypt then.
5) rush settler in Bapedi, to found town SW of Memphis. Send it to Egypt.
6) build another settler in Ulundi, Hlobane or Mpondo. Send it to Egypt.
7) optimize production and growth in our towns! Towns building horses should have 15, 10, 6 or 5 spt. There should be no rioting and no entertainer where a taxman is sufficient. Z should do 15spt! Umtata does not need a BG if the shield is lost anyway. Swazi could use it.
8) reg warrior can go back for MP duty. e-archer would be better in Egypt for defensive freeshot and MGL fishing.
9) worker NE of Mpondo mine desert E of Mpondo for some production there.
10) change scientist in Ngome to taxman.

 

[I. Larkin]

5) rush settler in Bapedi, to found town SW of Memphis. Send it to Egypt.
May be Ita better?
Soryy for short quote...
Thanks anyway. I agree to have Iron at home. But not sure that Heli flip is so high... What arguments convinced you?

 

[Paul#42]

5) rush settler in Bapedi, to found town SW of Memphis. Send it to Egypt.
May be Ita better?
Soryy for short quote...

If you mean Ita = Isandhlwana then: That's too far away.
If you mean Ita = Intombe then: It's just 1/3 move closer.
Bapedi would be best as Abegweit suggested.

But: We should first clear the team situation.

 

[Paul#42]

Thanks anyway. I agree to have Iron at home. But not sure that Heli flip is so high... What arguments convinced you?

I realized that it would take ~7 turns till our army is there. We would at least lose some horses in that period. On the mountain we would probably lose no single unit but can easily pick off other units on grassland. Simply safer. And more concentrated.

 

[I. Larkin]

If you mean Ita = Isandhlwana then: That's too far away.
If you mean Ita = Intombe then: It's just 1/3 move closer.
Bapedi would be best as Abegweit suggested.

But: We should first clear the team situation.

Babedy valuable City, Ittombe not so. But I will see.
Main question: why Heli, not Memphis?
I will wait one day more...

 

[I. Larkin]

I realized that it would take ~7 turns till our army is there. We would at least lose some horses in that period. On the mountain we would probably lose no single unit but can easily pick off other units on grassland. Simply safer. And more concentrated.

I see. Do we want Vine and Iron Pillaged? Or live it as it is?
So no evaquation and continue to bring more horses, rigth?

 

[Andronicus]

If Memphis raised will that mean Cleo has no iron even if flip or takes Heli? (ie the iron is in neutral territory)
I think this is a rational reason for the plan Paul notes above
Note - I've been convinced that razing Memphis and gifting Heli to India is the best way forward.

Cant see what size Bapedi and Intombe are but unless we want Bapedi smaller then I would have thought it better to leave Bapedi at optimal size and shrink Intombe with a setter, as Bapedi the less corrupt town.

No need to pillage iron if it is outside Cleo's territory and will shortly be in our new town's territory. I think Cleo had at least 3 wines in last screenshot I saw, pillaging may affect lux supply to her allies, but ? worth risking a unit on flat tile for attack from AC. I prefer to keep the units on the iron mountain - we will take Cleo's wine soon with MDI army.

Query - should we continue building horses or look to get some MDI? Even a few turns of vet warrior production and upgrade once iron colony established gives us a quick rush of stronger units.

Research - agree that min science pointless

 

[Abegweit]

No need to pillage iron if it is outside Cleo's territory and will shortly be in our new town's territory.

It won't be in our new town's territory (it wil be next to Heliopolis and our new town will be next to Memphis). The reason to pillage the Helio location is that she probably will resettle it.

Query - should we continue building horses or look to get some MDI? Even a few turns of vet warrior production and upgrade once iron colony established gives us a quick rush of stronger units.

We have no gpt. As such, get the better buildable unit. Otherwise I might agree.

Research - agree that min science pointless

Yes.

 

[Abegweit]

Dear Alan, you see the situation.

1) I think to demand apologies for "F..k U" is not too arrogant. The text above shows that Abegweit is not sorry at all.

In French, the word "demander" means to ask. In English it means to exhort. I think you know the difference. Meebe not. In any case, I will not apologise for calling you out for your repeated attempts to destroy this team.

2) It is normal in SGOTM that team member play 10 turns without stops. This is normal practice, not a threats.

Like this.

To continue game I see only one possibility: I will not read what Abegweit write unless other team members pass Abegweit's posts to me after removing insulting things.

And this.

from now on I will write minimum.

And this.

 

[I. Larkin]

1) If Memphis raised will that mean Cleo has no iron even if flip or takes Heli? (ie the iron is in neutral territory)
I think this is a rational reason for the plan Paul notes above
2) Note - I've been convinced that razing Memphis and gifting Heli to India is the best way forward.

3) Cant see what size Bapedi and Intombe are but unless we want Bapedi smaller then I would have thought it better to leave Bapedi at optimal size and shrink Intombe with a setter, as Bapedi the less corrupt town.

4) No need to pillage iron if it is outside Cleo's territory and will shortly be in our new town's territory. I think Cleo had at least 3 wines in last screenshot I saw, pillaging may affect lux supply to her allies, but ? worth risking a unit on flat tile for attack from AC. I prefer to keep the units on the iron mountain - we will take Cleo's wine soon with MDI army.

5)Query - should we continue building horses or look to get some MDI? Even a few turns of vet warrior production and upgrade once iron colony established gives us a quick rush of stronger units.

6) Research - agree that min science pointless

1) Heli does not matter. But unvisible City may expand. Well, we will pillage it then.
2) So am I.
3) Ito - 4, Babedy -6. But due to corruption Babedy better let grow. Will see closer.
4) OK
5) well 2-3 Warrior could be resonable. But GA may change Query.
6) OK.
It looks that we reach a consensus and I may finish my turnset today.

 

[Abegweit]

Cant see what size Bapedi and Intombe are but unless we want Bapedi smaller then I would have thought it better to leave Bapedi at optimal size and shrink Intombe with a setter, as Bapedi the less corrupt town.

Query - should we continue building horses or look to get some MDI? Even a few turns of vet warrior production and upgrade once iron colony established gives us a quick rush of stronger units.

If you are making suggestions like this, it is quite clear that you have not been able to open a save and see the disasterous state of our economy (not blaming anyone for it; it is simply a fact - we are currently making 0 gpt with 0 science).

I just realised that there is a serious problem with my idea of abandoning Memphis, gifting Helio and founding a new city. We need a barracks and I have no idea where to get the money to rush the settler, upgrade the warriors and buy a barracks. I was only counting the first two when I suggested this line.

 

[Andronicus]

If you are making suggestions like this, it is quite clear that you have not been able to open a save and see the disasterous state of our economy (not blaming anyone for it; it is simply a fact - we are currently making 0 gpt with 0 science).

correct - I might be able to take a peak at the save tomorrow, but I will have only a few hours at home before I leave for Coonabarraban.
Question - why is our economy so bad - if because we owe gpt to AI then I thought the idea was to dow allies ASAP to minimise payments, if due to unit support costs , we need more towns.

I just realised that there is a serious problem with my idea of abandoning Memphis, gifting Helio and founding a new city. We need a barracks and I have no idea where to get the money to rush the settler, upgrade the warriors and buy a barracks. I was only counting the first two when I suggested this line.

Do any AI we are not yet at war with have spare money to "lend" us?

 

[Paul#42]

We have a barracks in Umfolozi where I would upgrade two warriors. For a third, we don't have enough. To rush a settler in Intombe would be possible, too. However our economy is in a catastrophal shape.
We pay 5 gpt to India and 24gpt for unit support.

We could break the deal with Gandhi soon (by taking on Japan).
We would lose some units then solving the other part of the problem
But of course first we must make some progress in Egypt...

 

[Abegweit]

We have a barracks in Umfolozi where I would upgrade two warriors.

That won't work since it is not connected to the iron.

For a third, we don't have enough.

Right. For some reason, I was thinking it was 60 bucks for an upgrade. It's 90.

 

[Paul#42]

That won't work since it is not connected to the iron.

That's why I suggested to build a colony in swazi next turn. A worker is unemployed there. It would also spare 2gpt unit support...

Japan and India have a combined 105g. Apart from that we pay 5gpt to India right now. Could we declare on China or Korea and enter their territory somewhere?
Okay, Ivan, now the galley you had suggested to build in Swazi would make some sense...
Germany has 44g. Otto is the only one to lack construction and Polytheism...

Germany, France and England own 67g. We need a war over there anyway. Problem is, our galleys are too far away to trigger the war.
But getting most for 1gpt (England, 14g) plus 3gpt (Germany, 44g) might help even if we can't cancel the deal immediately. How long will our galleys take to ignite the war (best by dow on France)?
EDIT: America and Vikings whom we could easily draw to war combine for just 43g. To buy cash from them would pay off after (67g-43g)/4gpt = 6 turns - plus the benefit to have them fighting immediately.

I'm starting to mess up the AI-blocks (No C3C @work). Is this grouping correct?
1) Egypt, Ottomans, Russia, Arabs
2) India, Korea, China, Japan
3) France, Germany, England
4) America, Vikings

 

[Abegweit]

That's why I suggested to build a colony in swazi next turn. A worker is unemployed there. It would also spare 2gpt unit support...

Ah. Good idea. Unfortunately we need a road up to it first. It would thus take five turns and we can't wait (BTW, this being Monarchy, it only saves 1 gpt). However this is high priority and, as such, I'd suggest putting the colony in Ngome. In fact, take one of the workers off the mining detail to build it. This way we'll have it next turn. To save more money, some of our workers should be merged into cities. For example, the two mining nw of Z should go to Ibabango once finished. The spare you mentioned in the southeast should go to Umtata.

Japan and India have a combined 105g. Apart from that we pay 5gpt to India right now. Could we declare on China or Korea and enter their territory somewhere?

Attack Tienstin-on-our-sheep. It's a blot on our territory anyway. Both Japan and India will loan us their money, and the deal will be cancelled by the DoW. We have a Vet Impi outside Tienstin and he could attack this turn. It's only defended by a warrior. If we win, I think this is a good thing. If we don't... oh well.

Germany has 44g. Otto is the only one to lack construction and Polytheism...

Germany, France and England own 67g. We need a war over there anyway. Problem is, our galleys are too far away to trigger the war.
But getting most for 1gpt (England, 14g) plus 3gpt (Germany, 44g) might help even if we can't cancel the deal immediately. How long will our galleys take to ignite the war (best by dow on France)?
EDIT: America and Vikings whom we could easily draw to war combine for just 43g. To buy cash from them would pay off after (67g-43g)/4gpt = 6 turns - plus the benefit to have them fighting immediately.

Get the German cash for a loan (or construction). Declare on the English. Bring the Americans into the war. It will take a tech to bring them in so get their money as part of the Alliance.

I'm starting to mess up the AI-blocks (No C3C @work). Is this grouping correct?
1) Egypt, Ottomans, Russia, Arabs
2) India, Korea, China, Japan
3) France, Germany, England
4) America, Vikings

Yes.

An embassy with the US will cost us 54g.
Money from the Americans, Indians, Germans & Japs = 174g
Current cash = 232g

232 + 174 - 54 = 352g, which is enough to pay for our warrior upgrades. There is also 7g to be had from the French but I don't think we want it. I don't see anyway to get more. There isn't much left anyway (no one else has more than 16).

Soo... Plan.

This turn.
1. Pillage Iron at Helio. Abandon Memphis and gift Helio to India.
2. Take out loans from Germany, Japan, Korea and India. Or sell poly to Otto.
3. Establish Embassy with US.
4. Declare on England and China, attacking Tientsin.
5. Bring Americans into the English war.
6. Send a worker to the Iron at Swazi.
7. Move the Vet warriors to Umfolozi.

This will take us off the hook for the Indian and Jap loans. Depending on who attacks whom on the other continent, we may be also be be off for German one too. If we sell Poly, obviously this won't be an issue.

Next turn
Establish Iron colony and upgrade warriors, shipping them off to Egypt.

Final question: what about the two cities I suggested 4NW and 4NE of Umfolozi? How about one in Egypt?

Edit: Korea has 13g. We should get that too.
Edit 2: Just spotted the road at Swazi It would be better to build the colony there and merge at least one worker at Ngome once the mine is finished.
Edit 3: Plan edited to reflect 1 & 2

 

[Paul#42]

Ah. Good idea. Unfortunately we need a road up to it first.

No, colony implies road. No need to road first.

I'd suggest putting the colony in Ngome.

In Swazi we do not need to interrupt a worker...

To save more money, some of our workers should be merged into cities.

I think we have too many tasks for them left. I'd rather keep them. Most of our core towns are already too unhappy to increase their size.

Attack Tienstin-on-our-sheep. It's a blot on our territory anyway.

How could I overlook that?!? Perfect!

Both Japan and India will loan us their money, and the deal will be cancelled by the DoW. We have a Vet Impi outside Tienstin and he could attack this turn. It's only defended by a warrior. If we win, I think this is a good thing.

China is broke, no chance to rush a spear. I'd even wait a turn or two for our horses. They would have no task in Egypt too soon anyway.

Get the German cash for a loan (or construction). Declare on the English. Bring the Americans into the war. It will take a tech to bring them in so get their money as part of the Alliance.
An embassy with the US will cost us 54g.
Money from the Americans, Indians, Germans & Japs = 174g
Current cash = 232g

232 + 174 - 54 = 352g, which is enough to pay for our warrior upgrades.

Yes, okay.

There is also 7g to be had from the French but I don't think we want it. I don't see anyway to get more. There isn't much left anyway (no one else has more than 16).

Soo... Plan.

This turn.
1. Abandon Memphis and gift Helio to India

after selling barracks in Heli and pillaging its Iron...

2. Take out loans from Germany, Japan and India. Or sell const to Otto
3. Establish Embassy with US
4. Declare on England and China, attacking Tientsin
5. Bring Americans into the English war
6. Take a worker of the mining detail at Ngome and send it to the Iron

I'd rather take the worker on horses near Swazi to build colony on Iron there.

7. Move the Vet warriors to Umfolozi.

This will take us off the hook for the Indian and Jap loans. Depending on who attacks whom on the other continent, we may be also be be off for German one too. If we sell Const, obviously this won't be an issue.

There's no constellation in which Germany declares on us other than if we step on english territory while at war. America cannot trigger that for us, they will only get Germany to declare on them (and their block), not on us.

Next turn
Establish Iron colony and upgrade warriors, shipping them off to Egypt.

Edit: Korea has 13g. We should get that too.

 

[Paul#42]

Final question: what about the two cities I suggested 4NW and 4NE of Umfolozi?

More towns are always nice imo...
Should all size 5-6 towns except Z build a settler next? We will need a couple of settlers for Egypt, too.

Edit: Korea has 13g. We should get that too.
Edit 2: Just spotted the road at Swazi It would be better to build the colony there and merge at least one worker at Ngome once the mine is finished.

 

[Abegweit]

More towns are always nice imo...
Should all size 5-6 towns except Z build a settler next? We will need a couple of settlers for Egypt, too.

Yeah. We need some. Not from everywhere... Bapedi is fine and we need the galley. Ulundi, Mpondo, Hlo and Isa are good candidates though.

I think we have too many tasks for them left. I'd rather keep them. Most of our core towns are already too unhappy to increase their size.

Depends on where. They are needed in some places but not others. And should be merged in some places but not in others. Certainly we don't want to merge them in our big cities but Ibab in particular needs a boost.

I'd even wait a turn or two for our horses. They would have no task in Egypt too soon anyway.

I wouldn't want to delay the upgrade (= money). There is one horse which can reach Tientsin's territory next turn but not attack. As I understand you, that is sufficient to fire off the Alliance. If so, I agree. I would not want to wait any more than that.

There's no constellation in which Germany declares on us other than if we step on english territory while at war. America cannot trigger that for us, they will only get Germany to declare on them (and their block), not on us.

Yes. Of course.

Revised plan:

This turn.
1. Pillage Iron at and sell barracks at Helio.
2. Abandon Memphis and gift Helio to India.
3. Sell poly to Otto.
3. Establish Embassy with US.
4. Declare on England.
5. Bring Americans into the English war, getting their money.
6. Send a worker to the Iron at Swazi.
7. Move the Vet warriors to Umfolozi.
8. Move horse towards Tientsin.
9. Massive changes in builds (see below)

Next turn
1. Take out loans from Japan, Korea and India.
2. Step on Chinese soil, firing off Alliance
3. Establish Iron colony and upgrade warriors, shipping them off to Egypt.

Builds:
Z two-turn horses, taking shields from Ulundi
Ulundi, Hlo, Isa and Mpo: settlers
Umtata and Ibaba: trebs
Umfo: horse
Others: unchanged

Edit: if stepping on Chinese soil is sufficient to fire off the aliiance, then we should do it this turn with the Impi. It doesn't have to attack.