SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Paul#42]

Depends on where. They are needed in some places but not others. And should be merged in some places but not in others. Certainly we don't want to merge them in our big cities but Ibab in particular needs a boost.

Ibab also needs hills improved to use before growing...

Next turn
1. Take out loans from Japan, Korea and India.
2. Step on Chinese soil, firing off Alliance

Don't forget to declare ion China...

Builds:
Z two-turn horses, taking shields from Ulundi
Ulundi, Hlo, Isa and Mpo: settlers
Umtata and Ibaba: trebs

Okay, 2-3 trebs is okay to defend Mpondo... But maybe rather a galley from Ibab?

Edit: if stepping on Chinese soil is sufficient to fire off the aliiance, then we should do it this turn with the Impi. It doesn't have to attack.

Yes, that should do it. But not before the trades and the dow

Had it been complicated like that in recent games? I can't remember situations like these in SGotm 10...

 

[Abegweit]

Ibab also needs hills improved to use before growing...

I did say that they should finish mining before merging... and the other one beside them will have finished its mine (but not its road) by that time. Getting this town up to size 4 or so is high priority.

Okay, 2-3 trebs is okay to defend Mpondo... But maybe rather a galley from Ibab?

ATM, we need three galleys to prevent cross-continent communication and perhaps two for the Egyptian ferry run. Those currently under construction should be enough, especially as the two in the west will be returning. Switching Bapedi to something else (horse or settler) and training the galley out of Ibab is quite reasonable though. I rather like that. In fact with cities facing each other across the straight, we would only need one galley for the crossing (once the initial rush is over).

Had it been complicated like that in recent games? I can't remember situations like these in SGotm 10...

We're in a tight spot with poor lands, a odd govt and unusual diplomatic conditions.

One more try...

This turn.
1. Pillage Iron at and sell barracks at Helio.
2. Abandon Memphis and gift Helio to India.
3. Take out loans from Japan, Korea and India.
4. Sell poly to Otto.
5. Establish Embassy with US.
6. Declare on England and China.
7. Step on Chinese soil, firing off Alliance.
8. Bring Americans into the English war, getting their money.
9. Send a worker to the Iron at Swazi.
10. Move the Vet warriors to Umfolozi.
11. Massive changes in builds (see below)

Next turn.
1. Establish Iron colony and upgrade warriors, shipping them off to Egypt.

Builds:
Z: two-turn horses, taking shields from Ulundi
Bapedi, Ulundi, Hlo, Isa and Mpo: settlers
Umtata: treb
Ibab: galley
Umfo: horse
Others: unchanged

BTW, the reg warrior headed for the front should return, either to act as an MP or be disbanded.

 

[Abegweit]

Cities: 4NW of Umfolozi first, followed by the two at the straight. Decide later about the order of New Heliopolis and New Tientsin.

Question: should New Memphis be W or SW of old Memphis? SW gives a shorter line to the front while W claims the wine immediately. My vote goes to SW.

 

[Paul#42]

5. Establish Embassy with US.
6. Declare on England and China.
8. Bring Americans into the English war, getting their money.

I just checked the alliances. We messed it up a bit.
The blocks are:

1) Egypt, Arabia, Ottomans, Russia: @war
2) India, Korea, Japan, China: own combined 118g, soon 0g, @war.
3) Germany, France and Vikings: 67g
4) America and England: 41g

Our galleys could easily trigger both alliances. We just have to make sure our ships are out of their land when we declare to not rip our rop rep (EDIT, couldn't resist ).
On which side do we want to fight (phony )?

Vikings are toughest to bribe, Germany cheapest.
A plan would be like:
1. buy the cash from Germans and French: 51g.
2. establish embassey (54g) in Washington,
3. make sure our galley is not in Scandinavia,
4. dow Ragnar, bribe America with CoL for 27g against Vikings.
5. Send galley into Viking waters to make Germans and French dow.
This gets us a net 24g and a war over there.

We could also ally with French, Germans and Vikings.
We then would gain 58g English and German money and give Poly to Otto.
Embassey in Berlin costs us 39g.
This alternative gets us net 19g. But a less valuable embassey.

I won't do it for the money...
Anything else to consider?

 

[Paul#42]

Cities: 4NW of Umfolozi first, followed by the two at the straight.

where are the "two at the straight"?

Decide later about the order of New Heliopolis and New Tientsin.

New Tientsin would be nice 4NE of Umfolozi, perfect culture carpet.

Question: should New Memphis be W or SW of old Memphis? SW gives a shorter line to the front while W claims the wine immediately. My vote goes to SW.

SW, it also gets the Iron...

 

[Paul#42]

Shall Z build a settler before the bin is filled? If it is given the goat, it makes 16spt @+1fpt, so 14 @+2fpt on the 2nd turn. It misses 5 food to growth (which is not possible), so a settler would be next if we do not want to waste food.

We could also keep producing horses there without growth, giving Z the second gems mountain casually and letting Bapedi grow faster. With that plan, another settler from Bapedi is even more important before it grows to 7.

If we'd let Bapedi grow to 7, it would need some culture to work more sea tiles...

So I think: Settler and growth in Bapedi, units and no growth in Z.
Should we then sell the granary there?

 

[Abegweit]

where are the "two at the straight"?

SW, it also gets the Iron...

New Memphis is one. Assuming we agree on this position, the other one is 2S from it.

 

[Abegweit]

So I think: Settler and growth in Bapedi, units and no growth in Z.

Agreed.

Should we then sell the granary there?

I think it will be useful later. Even at 1-3 fp, which is what Z will do under these circumstance, it can pump out a settler every 12 turns or so.

 

[I. Larkin]

7 210 BC Why pillage? Memphis is ours. Horse die spear/2/3, Horse killed spear, E/Horse killed MidInf? (was in Galley) and got GL. (Picture.) I stop here. After 4 days debates we work out best possible recipe for the next half turn:
I decided to keep Memphis alive 1 turn for better recover of units, easer unload and 3 extra gold. Settler rushed in Babedy, as we are short of cash. No unit appears in Indian’s Heli. Put Lux back to 10% as 30% helps very little.
IBT India asks to leave. Japan asks to leave. Otto horse capture Heli: City remain. China and, I believe, all others members of block declare to Ottos. No Egypt reaction.

8 190 BC Unload 2 Horses on Hills and Unload 3 in Memphis.
Iron Colony near Swazi.
Borrowed 48 g from India for 3 gpt and 32 for 2 gpt from Germany. Upgrade 3 warriors to MDI. Assemble troops at Iron near Memphis.
Disband Memphis.
IBT Oh, dear! India make peace with Arabs! The little mercy that we do not pay 5 gpt… Worth, that it causes all cascade of treaties… Now all in peace except us vs Arab – Russian Block. Otto horse kill our vet horse fortified on Hills. (-> 1/3). Egyt archers appear here and there.
9 170 BC Kill 1/3 horse and 2 archers, and Ar/Settler pair. Assemble workers, wounded Horses at Hills and Cup by fortified Impy.
Peace treaty causes big technological progress of Eastern “friends”. Now Otto, Korea, and China up Monotheism (that is 1 step from Chivalry) India down Rep and Eng and Japan down Eng. It have Ivory for sale. Horse killed barb and reveal barb camp. Impy killed barb.
IBT AC killed fortified Impy (-> 3/5), Egypt Archer killed 3/4 horse, Otto horse killed last horse and disbanded workers. Egypt archer from south.
10 150 BC Turset unfinished because of need further strategy. Just killed AC, 2 Archer and horse from south. 3/4 Horse retreat from barb camp. Setler may go into galley, but may wait with MDI.
Recommendations 1) Bring India back to fight. Republic is expensive, but we may ask many alliances.
2) Make “ship chain” to bring MDI + Settler faster.
3) I don’t remember what will happened with road when barb Camp. Construction of chain depends on that.
4) Be ware of Russian Galley. But most probably it is new settler at our desert.
5) Relocate “army” for faster formation.

 

[Paul#42]

Got it.

Will analyse later.

Ivan, did you read our recent posts? Or had you already played by then?
Which was the last you read before playing those final three turns?

 

[I. Larkin]

Got it.

Will analyse later.

Ivan, did you read our recent posts? Or had you already played by then?
Which was the last you read before playing those final three turns?

I played the rest of my turns 10 October night following my post #571. I wrote to Abegweit PM about that turns 11 Oct Morning. Unfortunately Server was down and I was not able to put ".sav" on it until yesterday noon. I looked through your posts, and I think now we have to reconsider the situation.
Paul, could you be on line around today night? I mean 3-4 hours from now? It is easy for me to talk at dialog regime. It would be nice if you make small picture of "battelfield" and mark somehow key points.
Re: your discussion with Abegweit: General remark: War costs roughly 400-500 gold. I would not go to war if "spoil of war" less than that.

 

[Paul#42]

Right now I'm here, exactly 3:02 after you edited that post...

Yet I'm not quite sure what you want me to talk about.

I'm just starting to have a closer look at the situation.

Re: your discussion with Abegweit: General remark: War costs roughly 400-500 gold. I would not go to war if "spoil of war" less than that.

What do you want to achieve with that statement?
How do you calculate these costs?
What do you mean by "spoil of war"?

 

[I. Larkin]

Main question: Continue war or not.
If "yes" how.

 

[I. Larkin]

Spoil of war is a profit, that you may gain as a result of war. It may be City with wonder, new Lux and so one. Sometime you may go to war for GPT, and normally it is about 15-20 gpt. If war give only 40-50 gold, I don't know. For example: you start war with block and got about 17 - 57 gold and no new land.
War is easy to start and difficult to stop.
Sometime it is difficult to evaluate: How much SoZ costs? 600? 25 gpt? Dunno, but about this value.

 

[I. Larkin]

But actually I want to discuss ship chain and next City location. If you load settler this turn you may have City at Egypt 2 turns after. An Full MDI army 3 turns after.

 

[Paul#42]

Okay, first thoughts:

If we comtinue fighting Cleo, we have our army ready on my turn #4, we are in striking position NW of Thebes after turn #5, capture Thebes on turn #6 with army and 8 horses.

I plan to take Heli from Ottomans and another close by town from Cleo as soon as army is rested on a tile next to Thebes. From that tile, horses will pick off Ottoman horses and Cleo's archers. We might start our GA in that sequence.

I will continue to conquer Cleo till Thebes is flip-safe.

I will sign in China against Russia for gpt after taking 174g from China's allies.
When alliance is fired, I will attack Gandhi and take Karachi, after China declared also Tientsin. Nagoya I leave healthy to block other's units.

I also plan to buy 64g from France and then declare on Vikings, signing in America to ignite a war there.

Peace with Cleo will have to wait then, till those blocks make peace again (which will be quite soon )

 

[Paul#42]

Spoil of war is a profit, that you may gain as a result of war.

I consider it impossible to calculate that. How will you value the delay of research by all candidates of a world war?
How the promotion of a horse and its chance to create a leader?
I don't like that approach at all.

I think we need to be aggressive to dominate our rivals early. That's what we are superior to them. We won't outresearch them nor out-trade them. It won't be easier to win this game in Modern Times.
And of course we cannot win by UN.
(what by the way would have been a nice victory condition, too)

I think our only chance is to keep those blocks at war. Those wars end sooner than we calculate and by far earlier than usual wars in civ last. So I'm contradicting you, making peace is easy this game. No MP lasts its 20 turns as the first peace treaty fires the hole bunch.

We might need to ally the more advanced party so the others cannot bribe them to easy and cannot spread their techs as they did recently...

 

[I. Larkin]

Okay, first thoughts:

1) If we comtinue fighting Cleo, we have our army ready on my turn #4, we are in striking position NW of Thebes after turn #5, capture Thebes on turn #6 with army and 8 horses.

2) I plan to take Heli from Ottomans and another close by town from Cleo as soon as army is rested on a tile next to Thebes. From that tile, horses will 4) pick off Ottoman horses and Cleo's archers. We might start our GA in that sequence.

3) I will continue to conquer Cleo till Thebes is flip-safe.

4) I will sign in China against Russia for gpt after taking 174g from China's allies.
When alliance is fired, I will attack Gandhi and take Karachi, after China declared also Tientsin. Nagoya I leave healthy to block other's units.

5) I also plan to buy 64g from France and then declare on Vikings, signing in America to ignite a war there.

Peace with Cleo will have to wait then, till those blocks make peace again (which will be quite soon )

My comments:
1) Bring India Back to war (for Republic, I think). MA VS Arabs+ Egypt.
Army may be ready at turn #3. (If put City at right place for fast unload and Horse take Barb Camp)
2) Impy may protect Horses on Hill. I lost 2 vs AC, though Combat calculator says opposite. If you win GA starts.
3) good...
4) Do not understand this idea. OK, you do not plan to bring India VS Egypt... Why China vs Russia?
5) Not sure that 64 costs that war. Note, that in this case France an Viking will sail to Ittombe - Babedy... Sometime "priceless" factors exists but here only WAR vs block favorite.

 

[I. Larkin]

I consider it impossible to calculate that. How will you value the delay of research by all candidates of a world war?
How the promotion of a horse and its chance to create a leader?
I don't like that approach at all.

We might need to ally the more advanced party so the others cannot bribe them to easy and cannot spread their techs as they did recently...

You right here, but we need reputation "clean". Any peace after war means "no war" 20 turns with whole block.

You see, they spread Tech at peace treaty. OK, my only recomendation to wait may be Mono appeare at another continent.
Have to go now.

 

[markh]

Thebes will have a horrible flip risk, so we can only take it if we can ensure to eliminate Egypt from the game. At the moment I doubt we can hold it against the block, so maybe we should consider to just raze it. Maybe it is too drastic and ACs are very tempting, but it would be a big gambling keeping it. It would hurt the AI much more to not have ACs than us.