SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Paul#42]

Played some moves on turn 0 for now. Some thoughts:

Trades
We have 73gpt virtual money available.
China will sell Mono, 81g for 61gpt
Korea offers Mono, 24g for 58gpt. Same price.
MPP with China against Cleo would cost 30gpt
Gandhi would be bribed for 14gpt but he will be too far away to trigger the alliance.

If we do no trade with India, we can fire their alliance next turn by moving a horse near Karachi.

Trading both Mono and Alliance for gpt does not work. We can't buy the alliance for tech, because only India and Japan are available and they are too far away from the other block.
China (or Korea after creating embassy, 56g) might be the only choices for the war, the others will be to far away. We need the alliances to fire immediately.

So it's Mono or war. I consider war more important for our Egypt campaign.

Egypt campaign
I guess we can hold Thebes with our forces. Osman just sends reg horses, that's easy. first pikes might cause some trouble, but a war with India block will distract their forces.
We might starve Thebes down to size one and join two of our native workers. That might even work if Cleo's still alive (and her capital far away...)
Meanwhile we take her other towns.

@Ivan: See you in the other threads.

 

[I. Larkin]

You letter is not approved yet.
BTW, we have 3gpt deal with India.
You will lose rep if declare to India.

 

[Andronicus]

I'm back and have had a look at save

Trades
We have 73gpt virtual money available.
China will sell Mono, 81g for 61gpt
Korea offers Mono, 24g for 58gpt. Same price.
MPP with China against Cleo would cost 30gpt
Gandhi would be bribed for 14gpt but he will be too far away to trigger the alliance.

If we do no trade with India, we can fire their alliance next turn by moving a horse near Karachi.

Trading both Mono and Alliance for gpt does not work. We can't buy the alliance for tech, because only India and Japan are available and they are too far away from the other block.
China (or Korea after creating embassy, 56g) might be the only choices for the war, the others will be to far away. We need the alliances to fire immediately.

So it's Mono or war. I consider war more important for our Egypt campaign.

Egypt campaign
I guess we can hold Thebes with our forces. Osman just sends reg horses, that's easy. first pikes might cause some trouble, but a war with India block will distract their forces.
We might starve Thebes down to size one and join two of our native workers. That might even work if Cleo's still alive (and her capital far away...)
Meanwhile we take her other towns.

My thoughts on diplo situation
1) we can actually generate 77gpt with 100% tax, Z work the 2 gems and all other citizens taxmen
2) we can get mono + all gold + MA if we throw in a tech, but that would be with India which is possably a waste

Ivan is correct, we cannot dow India without ruining rep, it must be Japan, but we have a worker roading there at present.

The main continent
China : has 81g - costs 6gpt, MAs expensive - cheapest 27gpt v Russia
India : has 69g - costs 5gpt, MAs 14gpt v Egypt, 11gpt v Russia, 19gpt v Ottomen. Owe 3gpt for 18 turns. Will sell all gold + MA v 2 out of Egypt / Russia / Otto for Republic
Korea - has 24g - costs 2gpt, no embasssy (cost 56g)
Japan - no money, no current deals - the obvious target for getting out of gpt payments, but worker in their territory completes road on next IT

The other continent
Scandinavia : has 7g, costs 67g for embassy
France : has 64g, 77g for embassy
Germany : zero gold, 40g for embassy
England : has 14g, 87g for embassy
America : zero gold, 67g for embasssy
No active deals, 2 galleys - western one can reach American waters next turn, eastern one can reach Viking waters this turn

My suggestions
On other continent
Turn 0
move western galley from 1N of Oslo to 1N of Aarhus
Turn 1
Buy English gold
dow America
MA ? Germany v America for gpt (rather not advance their tech)
move western galley into American waters
IT - England dows cancelling gpt payment
Turn 2
Buy French gold
dow Scandinavia
move eastern galley into Scandinavian waters
IT - Germany and France dow cancelling their gpt payments
Gain - all other continent gold except Scandinavian, war on other continent, get out of current 2gpt payment to Germany.

On main continent
I think Chinese gpt payments too expensive and India too far away to MA (may be totally wasted if no action before they make peace). Therefore I propose we use cash after English deal to finance embassy with Koreans - they are adjacent to Russians and if their costs are closer to India's costs we can afford mono + war by allying them
Turn 0
Move Mpondo horse nearer Nagoya
IT worker completes road
Turn 1
Embassy with Korea (after buying English gold - if still have less than required 56g we could but 1gpt's worth from France)
MA Koreans v cheapest rival (preferably Russians since they are adjacent, not Arabs since they dont appear to be on same continent) and get all their gold + mono for gpt
Get Indian + Chinese gold for gpt
move worker out of Japanese territory
dow Japan
move horse onto newly completed road and pillage (this should activate MPPs immediately avoiding having to pay even 1 turn of the gpt payments)
Gain - Korean embassy, war to distract opposition at Thebes, mono, all gold from Korea/India/Japan/China alliance, get out of current 3gpt to India

Re domestic situation
Can be improved with more towns -> increased unit support. As towns grow they can build a settler and merge a worker meaning only drop 1 pop - exception is Z which has granary and can drop from 6.5 to 4.5 and grow back to 5 the following turn (I suggest selling granary in Ulundi). Currently have 19 workers and 7 slaves - hopefully more slaves from the war will reduce our need for workers and again reduce our unit support.
Productivity is main requirement for war effort which should be our major goal. Shifting lux to 20% allows us to use more tiles boosting production. The cost is the loss of tax.
Why harbour in Swazi? - its not being used

Military
currently strong to all on our continent except Japan (average) and all on other continent except Germany and France.
I would prefer we built MDIs at present - horses are becoming of limitted value and we already have 19. Do we really need pikes?
Note we only have 2 impi and are unable to build more (other than 1 under construction) unless we disconnect iron - we must be careful in our use so as to ensure our GA - I suggest a redlined 1 defence unit should be a target for our impi.
Research - need science farms so can beeline to cavalry - again more settlers required

War push
Currently our units in Egypt are spread in 2 stacks, one covered by a horse on a hill - easy pickings for our foes. I suggest all should be on the mountain.
We need the army loaded ASAP so can move on Thebes -> no more AC for Egypt.
I dont agree with razing Thebes, the AC are valuable for us and the best way to avoid flip risk is simply to retake. This should not be a problem with a few MDI stationed beside.
BTW all AI on our continent are in WW affected govt (Rep or Feud) exc Egypt - currently in anarchy, so us losing a city and recapturing will affect them adversely.
Once Thebes taken we should push on with our army to the rest of Egypt - leaving Pi-Rameses till last (building Sun Tzu's). Cleo has 7 towns left. Leader s for further armies would speed things markedly. So would AC.
Once chivalry is known the situation on the main continent will become much more dangerous as 3 of our rivals (Indians, Chinese and Japs) have useful knight UUs (as do the backward Arabs wherever they are). At this stage we will need to decide whether to go for more backward other continent, waiting for cavs to complete our continent.

Re keeping continents separate.
I think this will be very difficult, if not impossible once GLH built

 

[Paul#42]

Ivan is correct, we cannot dow India without ruining rep, it must be Japan, but we have a worker roading there at present.

Yes, right.

My suggestions
On other continent
Turn 0
move western galley from 1N of Oslo to 1N of Aarhus

Why to west? I'd thought to move it back home

Turn 1
Buy English gold
dow America
MA ? Germany v America for gpt (rather not advance their tech)
move western galley into American waters
IT - England dows cancelling gpt payment
Turn 2
Buy French gold
dow Scandinavia
move eastern galley into Scandinavian waters
IT - Germany and France dow cancelling their gpt payments
Gain - all other continent gold except Scandinavian, war on other continent, get out of current 2gpt payment to Germany.

I like that plan.

On main continent
I think Chinese gpt payments too expensive and India too far away to MA (may be totally wasted if no action before they make peace). Therefore I propose we use cash after English deal to finance embassy with Koreans - they are adjacent to Russians and if their costs are closer to India's costs we can afford mono + war by allying them

Yes this might be worth trying.

Turn 0
Move Mpondo horse nearer Nagoya
IT worker completes road
Turn 1
Embassy with Korea (after buying English gold - if still have less than required 56g we could but 1gpt's worth from France)
MA Koreans v cheapest rival (preferably Russians since they are adjacent, not Arabs since they dont appear to be on same continent) and get all their gold + mono for gpt
Get Indian + Chinese gold for gpt
move worker out of Japanese territory
dow Japan
move horse onto newly completed road and pillage (this should activate MPPs immediately avoiding having to pay even 1 turn of the gpt payments)
Gain - Korean embassy, war to distract opposition at Thebes, mono, all gold from Korea/India/Japan/China alliance, get out of current 3gpt to India

Should we take Nagoya? I do not think so, it filters incoming units nicely.

domestic situation
Can be improved with more towns -> increased unit support. As towns grow they can build a settler and merge a worker meaning only drop 1 pop - exception is Z which has granary and can drop from 6.5 to 4.5 and grow back to 5 the following turn (I suggest selling granary in Ulundi). Currently have 19 workers and 7 slaves - hopefully more slaves from the war will reduce our need for workers and again reduce our unit support.

Yep, nice idea to join a few workers.

Productivity is main requirement for war effort which should be our major goal. Shifting lux to 20% allows us to use more tiles boosting production. The cost is the loss of tax.

I'll play around with the slider...

Why harbour in Swazi? - its not being used

Sell it?

Military
currently strong to all on our continent except Japan (average) and all on other continent except Germany and France.
I would prefer we built MDIs at present - horses are becoming of limitted value and we already have 19. Do we really need pikes?

MDIs are so slow and we have long distances to go... Pikes - maybe one for the choke point on the eastern Peninsula?

Note we only have 2 impi and are unable to build more (other than 1 under construction) unless we disconnect iron - we must be careful in our use so as to ensure our GA - I suggest a redlined 1 defence unit should be a target for our impi.

We should be able to build our UU till our GA is started - even if iron is connected and pikes are available
Do we want our GA NOW?

Research - need science farms so can beeline to cavalry - again more settlers required

Where to build them? Everywhere in corrupt areas or just away from Possible FP / Palce sites? Even in desert areas?

We need the army loaded ASAP so can move on Thebes -> no more AC for Egypt.

So we should found "New Memphis" because it speeds up army by a turn (as Ivan suggested)?

I dont agree with razing Thebes...

D'accord.

Re keeping continents separate.
I think this will be very difficult, if not impossible once GLH built

At least we should try - whenever we have a spare galley for the job. I do not see, how an AI galley should pass two of our galleys at the right spot. But of course GLH makes a difference.

 

[Andronicus]

Why to west? I'd thought to move it back home

So it can enter American territory the following turn and trigger mpp to get us out of gpt payments

Should we take Nagoya? I do not think so, it filters incoming units nicely.

I would just pillage the road tile and nothing more - any units (if any) sent our way can be used for leader farming - we have 1 or 2 elite archers IIRC

Sell it?

I vote for selling it unless someone has a convincing argument for why we want it.

MDIs are so slow and we have long distances to go... Pikes - maybe one for the choke point on the eastern Peninsula?

Well our horse losses appear to be quite high and we dont have wonderful productive capacity - I just wondered if MDI may be more efficient for a brief period until chivalry available (presumably in next 20 turns)

Do we want our GA NOW?

My vote is yes - an immediate productive boost to get more territory in warfare

Where to build them? Everywhere in corrupt areas or just away from Possible FP / Palce sites? Even in desert areas?

Anywhere helps with unit support costs, irrigatable grassland and food boni tiles help with science farms

So we should found "New Memphis" because it speeds up army by a turn (as Ivan suggested)?

IMO yes (edit - but see below for alternative)

At least we should try - whenever we have a spare galley for the job. I do not see, how an AI galley should pass two of our galleys at the right spot. But of course GLH makes a difference.

Agree we try, but once GLH built AI can leave and arrive from sea tiles meaning they have many many possible crossings which will be impossible to defend. With the large number of AI currently building GLH I think it will be built sooner rather than later. I am not saying dont keep them separate only suggesting our window of opportunity of keeping the other continent backwards may be closing soon


I had a thought that if we deem it too hard to hold onto Egyptian land, we could ship the army and MDIs along with our horses to Germany immediately after dow (dow as described in my prev post).

In favour of this approach is
1) A defendable front starting from the SE of their continent
2) Fewer AI opponents attacking at once
3) Commence war between AI factions before we land there so units already moving away from the focus of our attack
4) Pyramids anyone? Perhaps also GLH.
5) No-one knows fued over there, later till anyone knows chivalry giving us tech edge.

Against it
1) Units already in Egypt area
2) SoZ (provided we can hold Thebes)

Any thoughts?

 

[Paul#42]

So it can enter American territory the following turn and trigger mpp to get us out of gpt payments

You are right, of course, I thought that was the eastern of our two galleys...

Well our horse losses appear to be quite high and we dont have wonderful productive capacity - I just wondered if MDI may be more efficient for a brief period until chivalry available (presumably in next 20 turns)

I can build some in towns with 4,5,7,8 or 10spt. 6,15 keep building horses

I had a thought that if we deem it too hard to hold onto Egyptian land, we could ship the army and MDIs along with our horses to Germany immediately after dow (dow as described in my prev post).

I'd rather try on Egypt. I favor to hurt our local rivals soon. I think we can handle Egypt quickly over there. Our horses will take care of offensive units, Our army can go after the defensive ones. Those turkish reg horses don't make me tremble too much yet...

Changing our aims now will lose further ground on the other teams...
The SoZ is one of our few chances to catch up again...
I agree to go after Germany after Egypt is gone.
I'm also quite sure that we will get more armies this time...

 

[markh]

I also would prefer to continue in Egypt for the time being as our units are already there. It looks better in the long run to hurt this alliance first.

 

[I. Larkin]

Some thoghts:
Re: war in Egipt: defenetly to continue. We may discuss best possible ways for that.
Re: Home MAs: Arabs may be close to India. It triged MPP next or second turn at my turnset. Also, it is good to bring VS Egypt.
Re: Harbor in Swazi. Abegweit have buildt it. May be he have an idea. Actually we may sell barrcks and use Swazy as shipyard. If we keep Japanise City on, we need some fleet for operation at India Ocean.
Re: War at another continent. My intuition against, but I have no clear arguments.

 

[Paul#42]

I can't believe our team thread is the one that least recently was posted in.

I'll have to change that

Still anybody out there, listening?

As our team issues seem to have settled, I will go on playing tonight. Final comments will be noticed during the next ~8 hours.

I plan to take Egypt and create two more leaders forming a game-breaking AC army and a FP in Thebes for a 4-turn-sf to plant those science farms in egypt

 

[markh]

Still anybody out there, listening?

Still listening, but I think everything is clear.

I plan to take Egypt and create two more leaders forming a game-breaking AC army and a FP in Thebes for a 4-turn-sf to plant those science farms in egypt

Why just two leaders ? We are due much more from the last game. Make it three for the time being and take out the complete alliance.

 

[Andronicus]

Geez Paul, are you planning to leave me anything to do next turn?
I vote
Go for Cleo - decisively. MDI army to get Thebes, AC army or 2 would be nice for the rest.
At some stage Chivalry will become avail - we will probably need to consider our options then as I would like knights ASAP - horsies are nearing the end of their usefulness.
I think we would need a discussion (and some analysis) prior to any consideration of FP in Thebes. ( I await your multiple leaders )
I'm for GA whenever we can - use it to pump out an overwhelming military that can push us into being the clear major power on our continent.
The only infrastructure I would recommend is raxes (and harbour on Egyptian side of straight).

Lets focus on some conquering

 

[markh]

Geez Paul, are you planning to leave me anything to do next turn?

There are a few more alliances. With the five leaders you get in your set you can take out the next alliance quite easily.

 

[Paul#42]

Geez Paul, are you planning to leave me anything to do next turn?

No.
But as we all know - the best plan does not survive enemy contact

I think we would need a discussion (and some analysis) prior to any consideration of FP in Thebes. ( I await your multiple leaders )

I just did some small maths on it, Thebes could be a 4-turn-SF and that would help to fill the continent with scientist farms. However, if we encounter a SGotm10-Entremont-like site, I'm not married with this idea...

 

[Paul#42]

Well, I'm five turns into my set, launched the first attack on Thebes - did not get it on the first strike

But then something strange happened that I should discuss with you guys - guess what

Here's the details

Spoiler :

Take off

0) 150 BC
Move galley N of Oslo west.
Move horse, archer to Nagoya.
Move horse to Tientsin.
Move horse, e-archer and e-warrior to Karachi.
Move settler on ship.

lux to (8.0.2), 4 clowns and 4 taxman employed. 2gpt.

IBT
Ottoman (O-) reg archer loses to vet horse (3/5) [1-0]
3 O-reg warriors move in to feed our promotion tour
Russian reg horse (4/4) defeats 3/4-horse [1-1]
Z builds settler --> horse
Isa horse --> settler

1) 130
merge worker to Z.
vet horse (3/4) takes barb camp (25g)
e-horse kills O-reg warrior [2-1, 1ev]
e-horse (2/5) kills O-reg warrior [3-1, 2ev]
e-horse loses to O-reg horse (3/4) [3-2]
land settler on mountain. 3 MDIs can land next turn in new town and form army.
Russian galley passed our "barricade"...

diplomacy
England lost all but 1g.
France spent 42 of his 64g.

screw economy to 78gpt.
Buy 119g, Mono from China for 62gpt.
Buy 75g from India for 5gpt.
Open embassy in Seoul (56g).
Buy 33g, MA against Russia for rop, 5gpt. (10gpt without rop!)
Dow Japan, pillage road, alliances fired, money back
Dow America.
Buy 22g from Joan for 2gpt.
Open embassy in Berlin (39g). Worker in there, why can't I buy it
Buy 1g, MP against America for rop, 12gpt.
Dow Vikings. Move eastern galley near Stavanger.
lux at (8.0.2), 3 clowns, 4 taxman, -9 gpt (12 to Germans): 209g
Rush galley in Intombe (28g).
Upgrade vet warrior in Ulundi (90g).

IBT
Russians offer peace for Mono
AC moves to our site for New Memphis
Hlobane settler -> Impi.
Intombe galley -> galley.
Germany, France declare. Everybody hates us
We are at war with everybody but England.
Iba was working the wrong hill, so Z came up short with 13s on the growth
No chance to get 17 shields, switch to MDI in 2.

2) 110
e*-horse Ivan loses to AC (3/4) [3-3]
vet horse (4/5) defeats 3/4-AC [4-3]
found New Memphis on his grave, start barracks.
MDIs and army merge in New Memphis. Army, 4 horses, 1 Impi go for Thebes
army passes by a settler combo. We have more important aims!
e-horse (2/5) kills O-reg warrior [5-3, 3ev]
e-horse (1/5) kills 3/4-Russian horse [6-3, 4ev]
5 horses, archer resting in New Memphis.

IBT
Iba barracks -> Impi.
Japanese start Sun Tzu's (in Kyoto).
Russian galley drops settler and reg spear on our desert trail.
Cleo sends chariot and archer on our gold mountain.

3) 90
e-horse (4/5 -> 3/5) kills O-reg horse NW of Thebes [7-3, 5ev]
vet horse loses to R-reg spear (3/3) [7-4]
vet horse (-> 1/4) kills R-reg spear [8-4], nets two slaves.
vet horse kills C-reg warrior (-> 4/5) [9-4] on hills near Tientsin.
vet horse (-> 1/4) retreats from I-reg spear (->2/3) in Karachi
e-archer (-> 2/5) kills I-reg archer near Karachi [10-4, 6ev]
founded Amatikulu on desert trail. Put it on RCP 9 to protect Hlobane (RCP8) from corruption.
lux (8.0.2) 2 clowns, 6 taxman, 17gpt, 92g.

IBT
Z MDI -> horse
Umfolozi Impi -> Impi
Russian and Egyptan fast units draw east, head for other battle fields
E-reg archer unhooks Iron
Japanese galley S of Nagoya.

4) 70
Thebes: army (-> 6/12) kills reg pike [11-4]
vet horse (-> 1/4) retreats from reg spear (-> 2/3)
vet horse (-> 1/4) retreats from reg spear (-> 3/3)
vet horse (-> 1/4) kills from reg spear [12-4]
army kills (-> 4/13) kills reg spear [13-4]
founded Zunguin 2S of Swazi.

IBT
German galley crosses the ocean, meets Russian galley
Ulundi settler -> horse
Tugela horse -> horse

5) 50
e-horse (-> 1/5) kills E-reg chariot [14-4, 7ev]
e-horse (-> 4/5) kills E-reg archer [15-4, 8ev]
vet horse loses to E-reg archer (-> 2/3) on gold mount [15-5]
e-horse (-> 4/5) kills E-2/3 archer [16-5, 9ev] - guess what...

pause for input.

 

[Andronicus]

Congrats on the leader, I now await your second predicted one in the last half of your turnset
Bummer about not getting Thebes first up.
Any indication of how many units there (ie was full health spear still on top, how many did you damage - I make it 1 pike and 2 spears down with 3rd spear damaged and I am presuming 4th spear still showing).
I'm asuming you did attack from the other side of the river, Thebes being on the NE bank.
I note we are still showing as strong compared to Egyptians

My thoughts for leader
MDI army - my preference - we need Thebes ASAP and then keep hitting hard - armies allow us to do this.
FP in Thebes. Note this does not give us a sig second core but I can see much value in having a 4 turn SF as you suggested allowing our starting region to concentrate solely on military (ie mine a few more tiles to increase production). My reservation is we dont own nor have we secured Thebes yet. What if we get it, rush FP and then have it flip? It will be a while till flip risk is removed (ie Cleo vacates the premises) and we may well have more leaders whilst cleaning up the Egyptians which could then be used for FP.
Heroic Epic - whilst this would increase our chances of future leaders I feel both of the above options are just too beneficial to build HE now - of course the later it is delayed the less beneficial it is, so I doubt I will be recommending this option at all.

Other option of horse or impi army I dont think worth considering as these are too weak. Waiting for AC is tempting but like I said above we have to get Thebes first - maybe for your next one?

The Thebes attack force is very weak - I recommend rushing rax in NM (68g) to allow speedy healing particuarly of our army. After rax I suggest rushing harbour as soon as we have a town claiming the wines - the cost of harbour will soon be recouped by the extra lux.

To speed transfer of units to Egypt I recommend next town (settler in U) goes to 2S of NM. This also decreases risk of enemy galleys blocking our trade route once wines connected. The following settler (Mpondo can build settler next turn if it is given an extra shield - sheep from H or mBG from U) can be transferred across to 2N of NM claiming the wines.

War elsewhere.
I would suggest we focus on 1 target at a time - I would not recommend drawing units to Karachi - it is only a 1 pop town so we gain nothing taking it and with spear on hill we will likely have unnecessary losses. I recommend the MDI turning around and heading for Egypt. Bringing the empty army back to meet the slowest (3rd) MDI will allow us to load 1 MDI speeding army(+MDI) movement back to Thebes. Of course loading more than 1 MDI prior to reaching Egypt shore is NO-NO with only galleys avail for transport.
I would suggest moving the eWarr and eArch into Umtata to attack any units leaving Karachi that reach the flat lands. The horses I would take to Egypt where we are too thin. Actually looking at that green galley heading our way, I suggest fortifying something on our iron mountain (?1/4horse).

Other thoughts
Umtata and Zunguin will make good specialist towns - I see the irrigation is getting near - those grasslands will support more specialists once irrigated.

We still have a harbour in Swazi doing nothing. ? disband

Can give mBG from Ngome to Tugela with gain in shield for Tugela and no change in Ngome.

Our defences are thin on west coast if German or Russian galleys drop units - ? move impi and 1 horse W from near Tientsien

 

[Paul#42]

Bummer about not getting Thebes first up.
Any indication of how many units there (ie was full health spear still on top, how many did you damage - I make it 1 pike and 2 spears down with 3rd spear damaged and I am presuming 4th spear still showing).
I'm asuming you did attack from the other side of the river, Thebes being on the NE bank.

You are right about all your observations. I attacked from NW. I injured one spear (still reg) and saw one more on top. Pike and 2 spears killed so far.

My thoughts for leader
MDI army - my preference - we need Thebes ASAP and then keep hitting hard - armies allow us to do this.

I also favor that. I was surprised by both resistance in Thebes and leader luck, otherwise our MDI would already have headed for Egypt

FP in Thebes. Note this does not give us a sig second core but I can see much value in having a 4 turn SF as you suggested allowing our starting region to concentrate solely on military (ie mine a few more tiles to increase production). My reservation is we dont own nor have we secured Thebes yet. What if we get it, rush FP and then have it flip? It will be a while till flip risk is removed (ie Cleo vacates the premises) and we may well have more leaders whilst cleaning up the Egyptians which could then be used for FP.

D'accord. No FP for now.

Heroic Epic - whilst this would increase our chances of future leaders I feel both of the above options are just too beneficial to build HE now - of course the later it is delayed the less beneficial it is, so I doubt I will be recommending this option at all.

Not sure about that. We could like some more leaders for our conquest, Sir Pleb's article on that shows chances of 1/12 vs. 1/16 to get a MGL. I had 9 elite victories in my five turns, I think we will have some 30 till Egypt is gone. Break even would be 48 elite victories to get 3 MGL.

Apart from that, some culture in Bapedi (or elsewhere) would be nice to gain more tiles and some culture. I vote for building HE in Bapedi. EDIT: With my second (our third) MGL - if we do not want a FP in Thebes.

Worker force
I did not want to ship our workers to Egypt nor let them wait there. That's why the are heading back to improve some tiles in the mountain / hill area. If anybody has better tasks for them, I'd love to get some suggestions.
At least we could join more native workers now.
And I totally forgot about that harbor.

The Russian galley already unloaded (slaves for us), but the German might carry some units.
Nice hint about covering our Iron source. And on city management optimization. I always appreciate advice on that, too. The missing shield in Mpondo however I would have found on my final inspection...

 

[markh]

Nice going, Paul.

I would take the leader for a sceond army. FP or HE can be rushed with the next one.

 

[Paul#42]

And part two of the german summer fairy tale...
We got Thebes and we got our third MGL - as promissed

Spoiler :

break for discussion. We decide to found another MDI-army.

5) 50 BC (continued)
ship MGL to company slowest MDI, draw 2 MDI, vet warrior to Egypt.
lux (8.0.2) 3 clowns, 3 taxman, 16gpt, 132g.

IBT
Z horse -> horse
Mpondo settler -> horse
Isa MDI -> horse

6) 30 BC
rush barracks in New Memphis (64g)
Try to take Tientsin but 2 horses retreat.

IBT
reg AC loses to vet Impi (-> 2/4) on Iron Mountain and starts our GA! [17-5]
Bapedi galley -> treb (enter towns to adjust builds to production boost).
New Memphis barracks -> harbor
Ottomans build GLH in Uskudar - not out of reach...
Indians start / switch to Sun Tzu (Delhi)

7) 10 BC
4/5 horse (-> 1/5) kills E-reg archer [18-5, 10ev]
lux (8.0.2) 0 clowns, 4 taxman, 59gpt, 133g.

IBT
Osman offers peace for 2gpt, 133g
Russian reg galley loses to our reg galley (2 horses aboard ) (-> 2/4) [19-5]
Z MDI -> MDI
Ulundi horse -> horse
Hlobane settler -> horse
Ngome MDI -> MDI
Umtata treb -> treb
English, Vikings start / switch to Sun Tzu

8) 10 AD
e-archer kills reg archer [20-5, 11ev]
e-horse (-> 4/5) kills reg archer [21-5, 12ev]
load 1st MDI to army#2, hustle down the road to Egypt...

IBT
three settler combos unload on our desert peninsula 2x egypt, 1x America
Iba horse -> horse
Swazi MDI -> horse
Umfolozi horse -> horse

9) 30 AD
vet MDI (-> 5/5) kills E-reg chariot [22-5]
e horse (4/5 -> 4/5) kills E-reg chariot [23-5, 13ev]
e archer kills E-reg archer [24-5, 14ev]
vet horse E-reg archer [25-5]

IBT
chinese reg archer (-> 1/3) kills 1/4-Impi [25-6]
Z MDI -> MDI
Ulundi settler -> horse
Koreans discovered Invention

10) 50 AD
3/5 horse kills chinese 1/3-reg archer [26-6, 15ev]
e-archer loses to E-reg archer (-> 1/3) [26-7]
e-horse kills 1/3-archer [27-7, 16 ev] - guess what

2nd battle for Thebes
army (-> 12/13) kills reg spear [28-7]
vet horse (-> 1/4) retreats from reg spear (-> 2/3)
vet horse (-> 1/4) retreats from reg spear (-> 2/3)
vet horse (-> 4/5) kills reg spear [29-7]
vet horse (-> 1/4) kills reg spear [30-7]
vet horse loses to reg spear (-> 1/3), 2/3 on top, three spears left - we have two horses and 1 army hit left... (Edit: I totally forgot to use our elite* horse on this attack )
vet horse (-> 3/4) kills 2/3-spear [31-7]
vet horse (-> 2/5) kills 2/3-spear [32-7]
army kills 1/3-spear [33-7], captures Thebes!! 11 resistors.

Karachi
Trebuchet hits reg spear (-> 2/3)
vet horse (-> 3/4) kills reg spear [34-7]
4/5 archer (-> 2/5) kills 2/3-spear [35-7], autorazing Karachi - forgot that we already have an unused leader

desert lands
vet horse (-> 5/5) kills american reg spear, captures 2 slaves [36-7]
vet horse (-> 2/4) kills Egypt reg spear in Abydos [37-7]

After flight check
Some units have movement left. I had planed to join more workers, on our desert penisnula we have a nice slave farm...
In New Memphis we have the unloaded army. I'd wait for 2 reg MDIs to arrive, keep that elite MDI for leader fishing.
Next to New Memphis we have a MGL waiting for orders.
Should it build HE or an AC army?

We'd like to get those new slaves to New Memphis to reconnect Iron. Some settlers for that area would be nice, too.
Thebes provided some defense, we killed a pike and eight spears. All regular. We lost a single horse in those two attacks
Thebes should switch to barracks.

All rivals will talk peace. I had no notice of a triggered MP on our continent
We might make peace with India block and sign them in for a tech again? Maybe they do not like going to war if they don't get paid

Here is the save

 

[Paul#42]

I owe you a nice pitcure...

foreign galleys
All galleys near desert peninsula have deployed their load - settler combos.
The Japanese galley did not drop a unit yet - I bet it also bears a settler combo but did not find space yet.

We should keep some horses everywhere so two of them could strike at every spot immediately. DPSF (Desert peninsula slave farm) of course should have more units as there might be three combos or more landing like in my turn 8, when I had not a single unit ready to attack

 

[Abegweit]

And part two of the german summer fairy tale...
We got Thebes and we got our third MGL - as promissed

I have a lot of catching up to do. Give you some more thoughts tomorrow once I've read through the discussion, the turnlog and looked at the save.

As for the leader:

1. HE. Bad idea. The game will be over before that pays off. It takes 48 elite victories to break even since each way averages 4 leaders at that point (1 + 48/16 = 48/12). Even that's not quite true since you get them faster without building the HE, like as the one staring us in the face.

2. AC army. It would take fifteen turns to get this... assuming that Thebes doesn't flip. Besides, IMO, an MDI army is better The 6-attack (vs 4 for AC) more than compensates for extra HPs and speed. ACs are also very useful on their own.

3. MDI army. Gets us in place for the Pentagon. Always good.

4. Empty army. Could prepare for invasion of the other continent. 3 and 4 could work together.

5. FP. I'd really like to see an FP in Thebes. Whether as the first step in a core jump or for science farms, we need a settler factory. Of course, this is even more vulnerable to flips than case 2.

Cleo needs to die.