SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Andronicus]

The bigger issue with Z working size 4-5 is the lost settler whilst growing from size 2-4. We need Z to produce another 4 settlers in the next 28 turns (next produced turn 4, then 3 in 24 turns).
At that stage we may be able to contemplate growing provided we have the workers to prepare the tiles. No point growing till those tiles are improved and for now we must emphasize growth.

 

[Paul#42]

At that stage we may be able to contemplate growing provided we have the workers to prepare the tiles. No point growing till those tiles are improved and for now we must emphasize growth.

Agreed.

Another point (though smaller importance) shall we build Archer first or wich to settler as Abeweit ask?

As Andro pointed out, we can build it now and have settlers in turns 4 and 9. I think this is the best (that's why I managed the last turns in a way that makes a switch expensive ).
We need that archer to clear the barb camp S of U which gives promotion opportunity (that's why I would not use a reg warrior for that task) and money to research at full steam.

I plan to think about the dot map again in an hour in lunch break. I see no clear winner yet (which makes it difficult but also less important...)

 

[Andronicus]

Blast I misclicked and lost my post Try again ...

After scrutinising everyone's recent posts I make the following conclusions

Majority not in favour of black dot first

3 possible sites for red dot
1N of sheep - original red dot - appears to still be favoured by Paul, ? out of favour with rest
1S of sheep - my alternate red dot, remains my favoured site but no-one elses
1SE of sheep - on Abegweit's dot map post 131 - favoured now by Abegweit and Ivan, my 2nd favoured
- therefore 1SE appears to get the nod

Paul and Ivan would like to work Z size 4-5, Abegweit and myself feel strongly now is not the time because of loss of settler - impasse?

I plan to therefore settle red dot next at 1SE of sheep as per Abegweit's 2nd dot map in post 131.
Red dot planned to build curragh, worker, granary
Following city should be blue dot as that opens up 3 BGs for U and red dot that would otherwise be outside territory
As the one holding the mouse I will continue to let Z produce settlers every 8 turns rather than grow.
Worker tasks will emphasize connecting new cities and irrigation project to sheep.

Any strong thoughts otherwise .. please state reasons why.

 

[Paul#42]

Majority not in favour of black dot first

3 possible sites for red dot
1N of sheep - original red dot - appears to still be favoured by Paul, ? out of favour with rest
1S of sheep - my alternate red dot, remains my favoured site but no-one elses
1SE of sheep - on Abegweit's dot map post 131 - favoured now by Abegweit and Ivan, my 2nd favoured
- therefore 1SE appears to get the nod

just to confuse things... Fearing to lose my bet on N of sheep, I favor your approach, black dot first and red dot S of sheep Getting irrigation to the sheep 8 turns earlier convinces me. I do not like the SE-of-sheep-site, it wins the coast but loses 2-5 BGs (3 forrests) - I do not think we need that many (productive) coastal towns. Our ships will be built in all corrupt coastal towns, so no urgent need to get red dot on the coast.

Paul and Ivan would like to work Z size 4-5, Abegweit and myself feel strongly now is not the time because of loss of settler

You misread this. I already agreed to spit out another 2-4 settlers and wait for two grasslands being mined (without highest priority). So your 9-turn-plan archer-settler(-warrior?)-settler is okay for me.

I plan to therefore settle red dot next at 1SE of sheep as per Abegweit's 2nd dot map in post 131.
Red dot planned to build curragh, worker, granary.
Following city should be blue dot as that opens up 3 BGs for U and red dot that would otherwise be outside territory

I surely can live with that. Actually it's like 60% for red dot south and 40% for red dot SE of sheep... (with North out of question)

Worker tasks will emphasize connecting new cities and irrigation project to sheep.

D'accord.

Do we have any calculation / guess how much corruption red and blue dot will get?

 

[I. Larkin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andronicus
Paul and Ivan would like to work Z size 4-5, Abegweit and myself feel strongly now is not the time because of loss of settler

You misread this. I already agreed to spit out another 2-4 settlers and wait for two grasslands being mined (without highest priority). So your 9-turn-plan archer-settler(-warrior?)-settler is okay for me.
Person with mouse in hand decide... It depend on barbarian pressure. Also better to move settler along roads to reduce travel time. We did not prepare road network yet. Also City at west coast is a must. In addition Red Blue Ulundi trio makes perfect coverage of BGs.

 

[Paul#42]

Now finally here's the dotmap I would favor.

Backsides are red dot not on the coast, black dot not blocking India. And quite crowded.

Advantages:
black dot is more and immediately productive.
black dot can start curragh soon.
red dot speeds up irrigation to sheep.
best use of the BGs.

 

[Paul#42]

Person with mouse in hand decide... It depend on barbarian pressure. Also better to move settler along roads to reduce travel time. We did not prepare road network yet.

I don't think we have much barb pressure.
If we let Z grow now, we would have to improve another tile, because right now only 3 tiles are useful - cow, BG, goat. Okay a fourth can be used soon. For operation at size 5 we would need another tile, dedicating the worker for 6-10 turns. Our road network would not improve in that time.

Also City at west coast is a must.

We already have founded Bapedy on the west coast.

In addition Red Blue Ulundi trio makes perfect coverage of BGs.

You have a point there - but this only gets us a curragh soon, if red dot is on the coast.

 

[I. Larkin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by I. Larkin
Another point (though smaller importance) shall we build Archer first or wich to settler as Abeweit ask?

As Andro pointed out, we can build it now and have settlers in turns 4 and 9. I think this is the best (that's why I managed the last turns in a way that makes a switch expensive ).
We need that archer to clear the barb camp S of U which gives promotion opportunity (that's why I would not use a reg warrior for that task) and money to research at full steam.
Actually I think that there are many barb camps. Scouts should return and find out where. That's why I recomend have more then 1 Archer. Also we may take Technical Credit (16 for 1gpt from India) now they are Anoyed and will not give 33 for 2gpt.

We already have founded Bapedy on the west coast. Sorry, I meant East...
Looked at your picture. Impression that Cities to close. Distance Blue-Red may be 1 larger. (On BG!!). In short term yor plan is "the best". But I'm affraid that game will not be short... I again recomend consider North settelment...

 

[Andronicus]

Now finally here's the dotmap I would favor.

Backsides are red dot not on the coast, black dot not blocking India. And quite crowded.

Advantages:
black dot is more and immediately productive.
black dot can start curragh soon.
red dot speeds up irrigation to sheep.
best use of the BGs.

you realise of course that you have gone full circle
you have put black dot in original red dot position

Seriously, I do not have a problem with this configuration. If your black dot functions as the curragh producer and then militaary producer whilst red dot south of sheep focuses on granary / workers or settlers taking first dibs at the sheep. I do favour a city directly betweeen lake and sheep as this significantly boosts growth in an early stage of our expansion (worth 8 food by irrigating 8 turns earlier).

 

[Paul#42]

you realise of course that you have gone full circle
you have put black dot in original red dot position

Yes, I'm aware of this. I used this as a metaphor for the circle we are in right now

 

[Andronicus]

OK I think I'm convinced that Paul's latest map (post 146) achieves the 2 primary objectives of maximising early growth by building red dot between sheep and lake and getting early curragh by building blackdot 2nd -> curragh
To maximise the speeded irrigation red must settle first so irrigating that tile can be skipped. Red if 2spt could either build warrior for mp (which isnt currently needed), then worker or granary first then worker. If only 1 spt then worker first. Black of course would immed build curragh.

Comparing this to Abegweit's dotmap on post 131 the spread is very similar with red and black moving 1NE. The disadvantage of this set up is loss of 8 food due to later irrigation of sheep, the advantage is earlier curragh and black can wait till after blue settled.

Anyone want to put their final comments on these 2 options? I'm to bed now, willl play after work tomorrow morning. It would take little to sway me either way, though I lean towards the first option as it speeds growth.

Basically I want the early growth, the early curragh and the red / blue / Ulundi grouping all ASAP. Greedy arn't I?

 

[Paul#42]

To maximise the speeded irrigation red must settle first so irrigating that tile can be skipped.

I do not think that the sequence is determined by the irrigation. We won't get irrigation past red dot even if we settle black dot first.

worker's movement
on turn
3 worker finishes mining after another 2-3 turns
5 move two turns (one is mine)
6 move to sheep
7 move to red dot
8 move on grass N of lake.
12 finish irrigation
15 finish road (optional)
16 move north again

If I did not make too many mistakes, red dot won't be needed before turn ~16 (~14 if we do not road the irrigated grassland), by that time even the second settler should be ready there (for at least a couple of turns)...

This changes of course, if U builds another worker before - no, it will take 5 + 3 turns, he could only go on the sheep and wait for the water - at turn ~12, okay that makes sense...

It will be a close call, can someone calculate the moves? I do not know, for how long my worker will be mining

omg, I wish we were an industrial civ...
Oh had I calculated that before giving order to the worker

 

[Abegweit]

Re: Paul's map. Given that we settle below the sheep, RedDot should surely go se to the coast.

This map does indeed give earlier production than one with BlackDot above the sheep but I can find no reason in it for settling inland.

 

[Paul#42]

Re: Paul's map. Given that we settle below the sheep, RedDot should surely go se to the coast.

This map does indeed give earlier production than one with BlackDot above the sheep but I can find no reason in it for settling inland.

One reason would be the 2x2-gap it opens up between the towns. Of course this could be countered by moving blue dot NE. I just thought we already had that placement, but it is really new . However blue and red dot seem a little crowded then, with a distance of 2.5...

The other reason is the eight turns we have the sheep irrigated earlier - but it's 6 turn if we do not road and maybe even less if the second worker helps.

It's tough (impossible) to calculate whether those 6-8 turns make up for losing the coast.

The map designer really built in some nice controversial subjects...

 

[Abegweit]

Do you mean between Blue and Red? Yes, you're right. We would then have to move Blue and this does indeed become quite tight. Is getting the city placed on the water worth that much? Dunno.

I am still in favour a map with a city placed on the desert. It gives us several more useful tiles which is well worth a few additional turns of development. As such, I continue to plump for my last map although I would be willing to live with Red inland on that one. In fact, it might even be right. In that case, it will be a long long time before the extra commerce compensates for the lost shield - and it will require a harbour and aqueduct to get there.

 

[Andronicus]

Mining completes in 2 turns
3rd turn E,SE,E on road
4th turn E
5 - 7th turns roading
8th turn SE to sheep
9-11th turns roading (if red dot 1S of sheep it would now be connected allowing worker to move 2S following turn)
10th turn S,S
11 - 14th turns irrigating (dont road this tile)
15th turn N to red dot (1S of sheep)
16th turn N to sheep, start irrigating
16-19th turns irrigating
This gives us another bonus food tile in 19 turns - the earliest possible unless dont road to red dot which would save 6 turns getting to lake but loses a turn on way back, then still have the task of roading 2 tiles to red dot. This latter task could be given to worker U will produce after granary completes.
edit - actually this set up may be better speeding irrigation even further.
By my calculations the new U worker could be produced turn 6 arriving at unroaded tile nw of sheep turn 7, road it turns 8-10, move to sheep turn 11 which would be turn other worker completes irrigation tile 1N of lake if it had done no roading. The sheep could then be irrigated turns 12-15 giving bonus food tile on turn 15! Roading would then complete 3 turns later.
Red dot 1S of sheep would be settled on turn 8, black dot on turn 12 if 1N of sheep and turn 13 if on desert further 1NE. At risk of repeating myself this is my preferred option but admit it significantly delays the curragh. edit At risk of contradicting myself - see below


For comparison purposes settling black dot 1N of sheep first (or on desert further 1NE but this means 5 turns 1fpt), then red dot 1S of sheep could result in red dot settling turn 12 (roading skipped by first worker) and irrigation of sheep completing turn 16. All up 6 less food than above option but earlier curragh by aout 5 turns.

Option of settling on BG 1SE of sheep (also on turn 7 if irrigate before roading)
results in first worker still reaching 1N of lake on turn 7, irrigate turn 8-11, ->N turn 12, irrigate 13-16 and other worker could commence irrigating sheep turn 17 completing sheep irrigation turn 20. Skipping roading certainly speeds this up and is my recommendation if we go this route (doing these calculations now swings me back to favouring this option despite wasting a BG). It is only 5 turns slower than quickest option with red dot 1S of sheep and obviously has advantages of immed curragh build, coastal and blue can settle before black.

Any flaws in my argument?

 

[Andronicus]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm11/Shaka_SG011_BC1725_01.SAV

Summary
Barbs a nuisance north and south
Indians already have writing reducing our time down to 8 more turns
Curragh from Bapedi spies sea across the ocean to NW (? suicide passage)
Hlobane settled at red dot 1SE of sheep (on coast)
Road started to blue dot will speed arrival - settlerr in Ulundi arrives on site in 3 turns but barb camp adjacent 1S, so needs escort
Irrigation project commenced - worker currently irrigating planned to complete irrigation, move north, irrigate. Worker roading towards blue dot completes current tile on next IT then should go east, road 3 turns, move east again onto sheep on turn irrigation adjacent tile south completes, following turn sheep irrigation starts
Western worker has roaded to green dot (which I suggest follows blue dot) and is now preparing tiles for use by Bapedi and green dot after green dot settled.

Turn log
Scouts sent back, warriors sent out to help keep barbs away from cities (this is a luxury we have thanks to gems being connected and mp only required at size 3)

IT
Z builds archer -> north (F3 says barb camps near Bapedi)

Turn 1 2070BC
Warrior meets barbs SE of Ulundi heading north

Turn 2 2030BC
Returning scout finds barbs N of Bapedi
Warrior d barb -> 2/4

Turn 3 1990BC
Fortify injured warrior on forest, 2 barbs adjacent
4 barbs visible to scout in north

IT
U granary -> worker

Turn 4 1950BC
archer d barb on mountain (tried unsuccessfully to coax down with scout on desert just out of range)

IT
Z settler -> settler
B curragh -> worker

Turn 5 1910BC
curragh heads north towards Egypt (my thought was for clockwise, with 2nd counterclockwise)
settler -> red dot SE of sheep
warrior d barb -> 2/5 - our first elite

Turn 6 1870BC
worker arrives at northern lake shore (scout has been checking aroud to ensure clear of barbs

IT
2/5warrior d barb
Ulundi worker -> rax

Turn 7 1830BC
Irrigation project begins
New worker has 9 turns before can start irrigating sheep - best use I can find is road 1 tile towards blue dot (4 turns, 1 to move, 3 to road - completes as settler arrives), then road 1 tile towards sheep (4 turns for move and road) arriving on sheep turn 9 ready to irrigate turn 10

Turn 8 1790BC
3/3 Warrior d barb threatening new worker ->3/4
scout finds location of southern barb camp - its 1S of blue dot our next settlement site
settler arrives at red dot

IT Bapedi worker -> curragh ( could be switched to granary if that is the vote, at present I favour curragh)

Turn 9 1750BC
Hlobane settled -> curragh
Curragh spots a narrow 1tile ocean passage to NW between seas

IT
Z settler -> archer

Turn 10 1725BC
Indians learn writing this turn, we come down to 8 turns from writing - I think we are going to need to discuss option of philosophy next.
Archer d warrior -> 2/4

My thoughts for dot map

I think we need to plan further ahead so worker actions can be timed for settlements
eg
green has terrible area until irrigated, main value is opening up for B, so several tiles being prepared in advance
pink requires road through mountain. This will be a productive city and should be built soon so road through should be planned. Currently worker is roading 2SW of Z allowing quicker access to pink dot. This worker can also road tile 1SE before roading mountain as it will be that long before needed (may get barbs to south so escort should accompany worker when it goes to mountain)

There are 3 alternate positions for black dot - north of sheep or NE or NW of that tile. I favour NW so put that in dot map - what do other's think?

Green could go 1NE opening up more plains tiles for B.

Brown could become 2 towns on tips of peninsula - note we will get no irrigation in this area and oysters will be only bonus food tile.

Grey will be low corruption but should not be settled before out of despotism and avail grasland tiles are irrigated

Orange (and yellow) might be dropped down the pecking order although these sites may be at risk to AI after maps.

 

[Abegweit]

Looks good. Some questions and thoughts.

Should Bapedi be building a granary as we agreed earlier?

Is it time to build the temporary city to the north? After BlueDot perhaps? Our western worker seem to have trouble finding useful things to do.

Has the placement of Hlobane committed us to my last map?

IMO, BlueDot is next and should start with a wonder pre-build for either the GL or the FP.

Edit: cross-post with dotmap addition. The map looks good. I wouldn't change anything. However, add a city 2ne of the western lake and another 3 ne of that.

 

[I. Larkin]

I don' like this turnset at all. For me workers work on wrong direction instead of immediate improvement of tiles around core Cities. Irrigation of sheep change nothing at Despotism.
Expensive "Irrigation project" is too hard for our weak Civ.
To justify this NW road we may build (0, +5) City near North-West lake. We need more military to deal with barbs to get more income. Why archer went North? It was clear indication that barbs at South.
Edit:Edit: cross-post with dotmap addition. The map looks good. I wouldn't change anything. However, add a city 2ne of the western lake and another 3 ne of that. I agree with that. However I think N of lake looks better. Settler will arrive 1 turn faster and City will not need Aqueduct.
curragh heads north towards Egypt (my thought was for clockwise, with 2nd counterclockwise)
It should be connection between Egypt and Japan - India. Only Japan know wheeel.

 

[Abegweit]

I agree about the irrigation project, It is premature. I was especially surprised to see that the worker hadn't even built roads on the way down. However, in Andro's defence, no city is currently working a bad tile. In fact, the goats and the oysters aren't being worked at all. As it is, I think we are committed to it now so we should finish.

As for the barbs, there are some to the north as well. You can see it in the screenie. It was correct to send the heavy artillery that way. There are two warriors, one vet and one elite, to protect the southern flank.

We seem to be crossposting but anyway...

Edit re dotmap: The city north of the lake will never be able to grow large enough to need an aqueduct anyway. It is better to put it on a desert and work a plains instead of the opposite. The desert is also in a better location WRT the cities around it.