SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

Roster:

Abegweit On deck
I.Larkin
Paul#42
Andronicus
markh Up

 

[markh]

I got it. Will play tomorrow after I caught up on the disussion.

 

[Andronicus]

Should Bapedi be building a granary as we agreed earlier?

We did agree granary but as I note in my log it could be switched and I think this requires discussion.
Is a granary better value than curraghs given what appears to be a narrow passage (coast - sea - ocean - sea - ??coast) in NW to another continent? The alternative is to wait till MM (whenever that might be) and IIRC galleys have 6 movement points (from coast 2 to sea, 1 to ocean, 2 to sea and 1 left to take to safety of coast - looks like may not need GLH). My thought is early contact with other continents is valuable
Another option is for green dot to build curraghs / workers so B can build granary settlers.
In long run B should be a good commerce city with access to 3 bonus tiles (oysters and 2 gems) as well as 4 coastal tiles.
I am certainly happy for B to switch to granary and then help with settlers, but thought worth thinking about the alternative.

Re green dot I am tempted to suggest 1NE to increase plains avail to it and B, but these would become avail later with additional cities - I agree 2 NE of lake would do the job.

I don' like this turnset at all. For me workers work on wrong direction instead of immediate improvement of tiles around core Cities. Irrigation of sheep change nothing at Despotism.

Well there was a 2-2 impasse on whether to let Z grow in size so I made a decision to keep it at small size and continue with settlers. Given this decision there was no immediate need for more core tile improvement.
You are incorrect about irrigation not changing sheep in despotism. We have access to only 2 food boni tiles in despotism - the cows and the sheep. Both of these tiles get an extra food per turn with irrigation which speeds our growth. We now have double the number of workers - 4 - still too few but at least they will be able to start improving the core soon. As I had no use for extra core tiles, nothing has been lost so far.

Expensive "Irrigation project" is too hard for our weak Civ.

I disaree strongly. WE need the growth ASAP. The benefits incude the food bonus at the sheep, black dot should not be settled till start plains irrigation (otherwise will be wasting at 1fpt), later we will want irrigation for grey dot (and possibly cows - but I am unsure whether there will still be value in this)

To justify this NW road we may build (0, +5) City near North-West lake.

As Abegweit notes, this is unlikely to require a duct so 1NE on desert better.

We need more military to deal with barbs to get more income. Why archer went North? It was clear indication that barbs at South.

I did note your comment that barbs south of Ulundi, but military adviser said barbs near B. I sent warriors both ways, then when saw northern ones were on mountains v southern ones on plains hence the decision for the archer to go north.

It should be connection between Egypt and Japan - India. Only Japan know wheel.

With collection of allied civs on same continent and no war, research faster (note India beat us to writing), so poss one civ on other continent researched wheel. I dont think we would find 2 diff alliances on same continent as this wuld make it easy for human player to play off 1 against the other.

I was especially surprised to see that the worker hadn't even built roads on the way down.

Well I gave my working out prior to playing - there is quite a sig gain in growth with early irrigation. Of course if worker near Ulundi had started roading out towards red dot instead of mining, we could have had both roads and irrigation .

 

[Paul#42]

Irrigation of sheep change nothing at Despotism.

Yes it does. Sheep add 2 food, so it is 4 food after irrigation, so 3 fpt in despotism. So irrigation works here. If you had doubted that, you should have mentioned it before, there was plenty of time.

Expensive "Irrigation project" is too hard for our weak Civ.

It's a tough project, but it gets us the only other "food rich" area early, resulting in more workers and settlers earlier. With so little food around, this makes a difference (I hope...). You can't expand faster than that way - except by going to war...

I was especially surprised to see that the worker hadn't even built roads on the way down.

I set up a calculation of the worker's way and actions and leaving out roads in the way down spared lots of turns we get back by the earlier irrigation which results in earlier growth and earlier worker production. This will pay back, I'm sure.

As for the barbs, there are some to the north as well. You can see it in the screenie. It was correct to send the heavy artillery that way. There are two warriors, one vet and one elite, to protect the southern flank.

A second archer would be nice indeed, the promotion oportunities are more than welcome... elite warriors are not too helpful...
The archer was necessary north, the camp on the mountain we should not try to take with a warrior.

Edit re dotmap: The city north of the lake will never be able to grow large enough to need an aqueduct anyway. It is better to put it on a desert and work a plains instead of the opposite. The desert is also in a better location WRT the cities around it.

D'accord, being on the coast is more important here. A harbor is the only chance before railroad to get this town above size six.

Towns NE of the lake should be at 2NE (as suggested) and 6NE rather than 5NE of the lake - it's on the coast and immediately has the desert sheep (any desert foxes around? )

The worker roading towards blue dot surprised me, too. I thought he would help irrigate the sheep. Now hustling to the lake without roading only makes sense if the worker goes back again without roading...
In my calculation the second worker would have roaded one plain (3,-5) now and would step on the sheep next turn. With H south of the sheep he could start irrigation right away. Andro, please let us know, which moves you had in mind for the workers.


EDIT: Quite some traffic here Andro, what time is it in Australia now? Don't you have any social life on saturday nights

Another option is for green dot to build curraghs / workers so B can build granary settlers.
[...]
Re green dot I am tempted to suggest 1NE to increase plains avail to it and B

I vote for a granary, green dot (moved 1NE) might start with a curragh, supported by a chop.

Well there was a 2-2 impasse on whether to let Z grow in size...

No, I was with you (for the next 2-4 settlers), so it was 3-1.

I disaree strongly. WE need the growth ASAP. The benefits incude the food bonus at the sheep, black dot should not be settled till start plains irrigation (otherwise will be wasting at 1fpt)

Agreed.

Well I gave my working out prior to playing - there is quite a sig gain in growth with early irrigation. Of course if worker near Ulundi had started roading out towards red dot instead of mining, we could have had both roads and irrigation .

Ouch. I know, that was no masterpiece. Looking back, I really had no idea what to do with that worker. This will haunt me the whole game

 

[I. Larkin]

Thank you for reply Andronicus.
there was a 2-2 impasse on whether to let Z grow in size so I made a decision to keep it at small size and continue with settlers. Given this decision there was no immediate need for more core tile improvement.
Actually that I did not like most: the way how you resolve the impasse. Taking into account the fact, that Barbs both on north and South (MA have told you) obviously military had more priority. However, you took the risk and I will see, how next players will deal with barbs. Another bad thing was slow down of research: now it is obvious, that sling will not work. Probably, it would not work anyway, AIs research is too fast.
Zero balance of India means, that somebody did even better and sell him some 2-3 level Tech. (We can only guess which). It would be nice to beat Egyptian at least and get smth for Writing. (I recommend BW, I like Impy, you know).

You are incorrect about irrigation not changing sheep in despotism. We have access to only 2 food boni tiles in despotism - the cows and the sheep. Both of these tiles get an extra food per turn with irrigation, which speeds our growth. We now have double the number of workers - 4 - still too few but at least they will be able to start improving the core soon. As I had no use for extra core tiles, nothing has been lost so far..
OK, I see. Indeed, We will have extra food on 1 tile. But, probably price is too high. Also it is difficult to Escort settler, protect 2 wokers and Hlobane with 2 warriors only. I recommend to 1) change Z to warrior, 2) Build settler in Ulundi instead of Barracks not to have MP next turn. Road to Blue was in part ready, what worker did now will not speed up Settler. I recommend (Forest way)
Quote:
Expensive "Irrigation project" is too hard for our weak Civ.
I disaree strongly. WE need the growth ASAP. The benefits include the food bonus at the sheep, black dot should not be settled till start plains irrigation (otherwise will be wasting at 1fpt), later we will want irrigation for grey dot (and possibly cows - but I am unsure whether there will still be value in this)
You may be right again. Looks that Republic sling unfeasible, so we will stay a long time in Despotism. To grow we need all opportunities.
Quote:
To justify this NW road we may build (0, +5) City near North-West lake.

As Abegweit notes, this is unlikely to require a duct so 1NE on desert better.
Probably commander right…
Quote:
We need more military to deal with barbs to get more income. Why archer went North? It was clear indication that barbs at South.
I did note your comment that barbs south of Ulundi, but military adviser said barbs near B. I sent warriors both ways, then when saw northern ones were on mountains v southern ones on plains hence the decision for the archer to go north.
It follow from Paul’s turnlog. MA remark meant that barbs here and there…

Quote:
It should be connection between Egypt and Japan - India. Only Japan know wheel.
With collection of allied civs on same continent and no war, research faster (note India beat us to writing), so poss one civ on other continent researched wheel. I dont think we would find 2 diff alliances on same continent as this wuld make it easy for human player to play off 1 against the other.
Probably Egypt and India in Alliance, who knows… Only Embassy will help to find out.
Re: dot map. I also think that green (-2, 6) better move to NE (-1,6). Next dots may be discussed later. I have no good ideas about it.

 

[Andronicus]

Workers

The worker roading towards blue dot surprised me, too. I thought he would help irrigate the sheep. Now hustling to the lake without roading only makes sense if the worker goes back again without roading...
In my calculation the second worker would have roaded one plain (3,-5) now and would step on the sheep next turn. With H south of the sheep he could start irrigation right away. Andro, please let us know, which moves you had in mind for the workers.

My calculations were based first upon getting sheep irrigated ASAP then finding best use for the 2nd worker in the meantime.
The worker Ulundi produced during my turns had 9 turns before the sheep tile would be ready for irrigation. The choices were either move to road the tile beside sheep, then road the sheep, then wait one turn before irrigating, or road 1 tile towards blue (currently doing - completes road this IT allowing settler in Ulundi to move 2 tiles instead of 1 towards blue dot - note needs escort due to barb camp), then moving to and roading tile east of sheep, then moving to sheep ready for irrigation next turn. This speeds blue dot's setter arrival by one turn, delays roading to Hlobane and connecting it up to lux by 7 unless worker currently irrigating helps with road (which I recommend otherwise Hlobane likely to have happiness issues).
Putting it another way
Southern worker completes irrigation then moves to sheep and roads (wastes a worker turn but Hlobane needs connection)
Worker near Ulundi completes road on this IT, moves E next turn then roads, then E again to sheep and irrigates.
Worker near Bapedi is preparing tiles for green dot my recommended next town after Blue dot. These irrigated plains can be used by both Bapedi and green dot.
Worker south of Zimbabwe is roading towards pink (either next city after green, or following black if plains tiles irrigated ready for black).

Edit

Road to Blue was in part ready, what worker did now will not speed up Settler

you are correct, the existing road already did speed this. I was looking at the grass tiles as being the obvious route to road to blue, but of course settler doesnt have to go by grass tiles when not roaded. My mistake, sorry.

 

[Andronicus]

Quite some traffic here Andro, what time is it in Australia now? Don't you have any social life on saturday nights

Actually it was Sunday morning - I replied quickly before going out running
Its now 4.20 in the afternoon

 

[Andronicus]

Barbs

Taking into account the fact, that Barbs both on north and South (MA have told you) obviously military had more priority. However, you took the risk and I will see, how next players will deal with barbs.

Everything has a priority - I would also like more military, but not at expense of growth.
Growth = more workers and settlers. More workers means we can improve those tiles sooner and get the commerce for science and production for military.
The safe route would be to get BW, build impis to defend all our cities but will this win the laurels?
My tactic with small military and barbs is to have units out beyond the settlers and workers as much as possible. This prevents barbs suddenly popping up next to settler / worker.
The more area we can settle the less we have to worry over barbs.
We will have a second archer soon from Zimbabwe

 

[Andronicus]

Research

Another bad thing was slow down of research: now it is obvious, that sling will not work. Probably, it would not work anyway, AIs research is too fast.
Zero balance of India means, that somebody did even better and sell him some 2-3 level Tech. (We can only guess which). It would be nice to beat Egyptian at least and get smth for Writing. (I recommend BW, I like Impy, you know).

I think you are being a bit harsh Ivan. I MMed every town every turn, if there was spare shields I used higher commerce tiles where available.
To improve commerce wee need more citizens and more improved tiles for them to work. I ended with 6 citizens the same as I started, but built 2 settlers and 2 workers. Those workers will help with improving the tiles - we need more though. Maximising growth is by having 1 citizen work cow and rest work 2fpt tile each turn. With irrigation of sheep we will have another food bonus tile to use. More workers will speed research and military builds.

Indian gold disappeared after first turn IIRC.
We do have to deal with fast AI research presumably because of effect of alliances so they know more civs early and can trade for first tier techs earlier so rezearch 2nd tier techs sooner.
I am dubious about our ability to reserch CoL and phil before AI esp since we have another 8 turns to go on writing.

A radical option is to research philosophy after writing at max, then when 1 turn away from researching phil, turn off research and save money waiting for AI to research CoL. It is my belief (but I may be wrong) that the AI usually researches CoL before phil. the turn the AI learns CoL we research phil, trade for CoL with phil + money saved and hopefully get free republic.
This takes a huge risk - I would be interested to know if anyone has info on the odds of success.
For this tactic to work we would need to make contact with as many AI as possible. This means curraghs around Indian and Egyptian continents as planned, but also 3 or 4 to attempt suicide crossing in NW to presumed 3rd continent. I suspect there are 4, but if we can contact AI on 3 continents it increases the chances of us getting CoL from the first civ to discover it.
Big risk - big return

Other options include straight for philo and then see if we can get poly (unlikely we could afford it) for monarchy sling shot, or trade for maths to get free construction or currency which would have high trade value. Of course the option of free CoL is still there.

If we fail to get phil first we have to face up to this game going deeper into research and trading our way to tech parity may be required (did someone comment on what happens if we trade gpt for tech then dow that civs ally triggering war and hence disolving the gpt payment? If we can do this over and again with each alliance ???).

 

[Abegweit]

Everything has a priority - I would also like more military, but not at expense of growth.
Growth = more workers and settlers. More workers means we can improve those tiles sooner and get the commerce for science and production for military.

Agreed totally. So long as we are successfully protecting ourselves from the barbs, that's all that is necessary. We will soon have plenty of archers.

Growth comes before exploration too, but exploration comes before military. In that regard, I would prefer to buld a granary in B instead of a curragh. If there really is another continent to the NW, I'd rather explore it with a galley anyway. Both safer and faster. I would also like some discussion about building the temp city 2N of Z. I think it's time. Bringing in water from the east is very inefficient and we are running out of good cities to build.

A radical option is to research philosophy after writing at max, then when 1 turn away from researching phil, turn off research and save money waiting for AI to research CoL. It is my belief (but I may be wrong) that the AI usually researches CoL before phil. the turn the AI learns CoL we research phil, trade for CoL with phil + money saved and hopefully get free republic.
This takes a huge risk - I would be interested to know if anyone has info on the odds of success.

CoL is a moderate priority tech for the AI, higher than Philo or Lit but lower than MM. I don't have any experience with this trick but I really don't think that it is a very great risk because one monopoly tech is enough to get you back in the hunt and the potential payback is huge. Same argument goes for the standard sling.

This being said, I would be inclined to go straight to Philo and grab it ASAP. There are a lot of civs in the game and, as I noted in the pre-game discussion, the tech rate will be fast (which it has been). Plus, some people may have better lands than us All in all, I really don't think we'll get the sling. I'm not even sure we'll get the free tech but it would be crazy not to try. It's also one of the best choices for a monopoly. Even if we don't get a free tech, Philo should have trading value.

One thing: if Writing still has any trade value when it comes in, we should try to get Myst, or at least CB. If we can't get a Republic sling then the Monarchy one is an excellent second choice. And, of course, when Philo comes in, enter the Big Picture. If any of CoL, Poly or Math is available (in that order) get it, no matter what the cost. Construction is not to be sniffed at either. Even Poly. Get the highest-priced tech you can.

Towns NE of the lake should be at 2NE (as suggested) and 6NE rather than 5NE of the lake - it's on the coast and immediately has the desert sheep (any desert foxes around? )

Sorry. 6NE was the tile I meant. 5NE is a terrible spot.

I set up a calculation of the worker's way and actions and leaving out roads in the way down spared lots of turns we get back by the earlier irrigation which results in earlier growth and earlier worker production. This will pay back, I'm sure.

You and Andronicus may well be right. I personally hate wasting worker moves. And you will note that both U and H will soon be working undeveloped tiles. Anyway, this is clearly not a bad choice and it's the one which was made so let's move forward.

I recommend BW, I like Impy, you know

This is wong on both counts. The only purpose of BW would be to get IW but we won't get it once we lose our monopoly on Writing. Masonry, CB/Myst and TW are all higher priority. The first two open up higher-value techs for later trading (and getting Myst after CB is possible, unlike IW after BW). TW shows us where the horses are, which I'd rather have to swords anyway. As for Impies...

 

[markh]

0) 1725BC : looks good, hit enter
The advisor tells me to build more cities. How clever.

IBT : nothing

1) 1700BC : change production to granary and abandon scout in Bapedi

IBT : Ulundi : rax -> warrior

2) 1675BC : not much to do

IBT : nothing

3) 1650BC : archer mops up the barb camp in the North giving us 25 gold

IBT : barb in the north kills our archer
barb in the south suicides on our elite warrior
Zimbabwe : archer -> settler
Ulundi : warrior -> worker

4) 1625BC : nothing important

IBT : somebody has map making, the first barb galley appears at the southern camp
Cleo asks us to leave her territory

5) 1600BC : found Isandhlwana at blue dot -> curragh
I sent a warrior towards the choke in the E and almost as I expected a barb appears there

IBT : Ulundi : worker -> archer
new barb camp appears in the SE

6) 1575BC : nothing much

IBT : barb in the E suicides on our warrior and promotes him elite
Hlobane : curragh -> granary

7) 1550BC : warrior kills barb at Isandhlwana
damn, moved a worker on the mountains at Zimbabwe to road towards purple dot revealing a barb, move cons warrior for cover, hope he will defend successfully

IBT : nothing
writing comes in, trade it to Cleo for CB and all her gold (52 gold) -> philosophy

8) 1525BC : meet Russian scout, but we have nothing of interest to them

IBT : new barb from the North
Zimbabwe : settler -> archer

9) 1500BC : meet China, I trade writing for mysticism to him
also Ottomans are on the trading screen now. Otto and Cleo are the only ones that have polytheism already

As this is an even turn I stop here. A pic of the current situation. A settler is in Bapedi to go to the green dot next turn.

 

[I. Larkin]

Crossposted. Did not meant Markh turnset. As we discussed better settle NE of green dot.

My general impression of your game that you did everything so wrong that I even don’t want to discuss the points like how and where to move workers. The only bright idea was to get sling, but to do that we have (had) to be very focused on this. First contact with India showed that we are well behind. Simple calculation showed, that 3 large (4-5) Cities produce more Sci outcome then 6 small (1-2) Cities. In addition we could have stronger military and farm more barbs camp. Impy is more suitable for that, especially when Barbs will have Horsees. When I did road on gems I thought about this scenario. It is very unpleasant to see how your projects not going to work.
Writing is not very high priority for AIs as well as CoL, but India got it well before us. I think the same will happened with Philosophy. I recommend without “risk” to research it at max and take MM if we get Philo first. (Or CoL if MM will be already around).

 

[markh]

We are researching philo now at max. It is still some turns to go. If possible I would buy poly before we get philo and if we get philo first take monarchy as the free tech. I am not too convinced playing this game as a republic.

 

[I. Larkin]

We are researching philo now at max. It is still some turns to go. If possible I would buy poly before we get philo and if we get philo first take monarchy as the free tech. I am not too convinced playing this game as a republic.
I see. It is good idea if sling to Monarhy works. Are there anybody else? Where is Japan??

 

[Abegweit]

Took a look at the game. Looks pretty good. We should sell Writing to Osman. He will give us either BW, TW or Masonry and some cash for it. I would take TW +20g w/o hesitation.

I'm unclear what the settler and worker are doing in Bapedi. I would like to settle the temporary city next, especially as we are mining yet another tile in the eastern waterway.

BTW, barb galleys appear with Writing. Yes. I know it doesn't make any sense.

It's good news that Monarchy is clearly up for grabs when Philo comes in. Nice! We should have no problem getting it. If Republic is also available at that point, we need serious team pow-wow about governments. I am in favour of Republic. We have a very defensible position and should be able run oscillating wars against the two blocks.

@ Ivan, I think that most of your criticisms are invalid. We are making good progress and our empire looks good. It is indeed about time to let Z grow. Just one or two more settlers first.

Edit: if the only government we can get it Monarchy, of course we want to take it. The tech is very valuable. I think we also want to revolt. (and since everyone seems to think Monarchy is the right way to go, I shouldn't have any problem convincing you guys of that! ) The despo penalty really hurts on this water-poor map. If we agree on a revolt (to whatever government), Bapedi should be switched to something else, a settler presumably. When we get out of despo, Z should keep the cow-full time. This makes it all that more urgent to get water to it.

 

[Abegweit]

We are researching philo now at max. It is still some turns to go. If possible I would buy poly before we get philo and if we get philo first take monarchy as the free tech. I am not too convinced playing this game as a republic.
I see. It is good idea if sling to Monarhy works. Are there anybody else? Where is Japan??

There is absolutely no way to buy Poly now unless we sell gpt, which is the last thing we want to do. The thing which will buy us Poly (or CoL if we can go that route) is Philo. Enter The Big Picture, trade Philo for Poly, then choose Monarchy as your free tech. It will work.

Actually, if you decide to sell a Monopoly tech on the turn you learn it, you always want to do it from the Big Picture. If you wait until the beginning of the next turn, it may no longer be a monopoly. Indeed, everyone might have it.

 

[markh]

I'm unclear what the settler and worker are doing in Bapedi. I would like to settle the temporary city next, especially as we are mining yet another tile in the eastern waterway.

I wanted to bring the settler to green dot (where the archer is) to settle the next town. Of course you can redirect him.
Originally I wanted the worker to build a road over the mountains SE, but there are too many barbs, so I made him join the settler. When the next archer completes in Z the worker could build the road.

 

[markh]

There is absolutely no way to buy Poly now unless we sell gpt, which is the last thing we want to do. The thing which will buy us Poly (or CoL if we can go that route) is Philo. Enter The Big Picture, trade Philo for Poly, then choose Monarchy as your free tech. It will work.

Actually, if you decide to sell a Monopoly tech on the turn you learn it, you always want to do it from the Big Picture. If you wait until the beginning of the next turn, it may no longer be a monopoly. Indeed, everyone might have it.

That was exactly how I thought it could work if we get philo first. Poly will get cheaper as soon Cleo and Otto trade it to the others which will happen not too far ahead IMO.

 

[Abegweit]

The "others" is Cathy. You can see form the diplo screen that Cathy, Osman and Cleo in one block while Gandhi and Mao are in another. This is good news. I had thought before the game that we would have to build embassies to determine who was in which block. Clearly not. I have the feeling that the two blocks are on separate continents. That may actually be a theme of this game.

Even if only two AIs know Poly, Philo should actually be enough to get everything they have especially if I am right that the two groups are separated. A thought: what about a phony war with Cleo's gang in order to slow them down? After we get philo, of course.

I have changed my mind about where the cow should be watered from. It will come faster from the east and not waste a settler. This means that the worker mining the waterway should be stopped. He's only one turn into it anyway.

Edit: my theory about different continents is clearly NOT true. There are Turks and Chinese to the far north. I think the two blocks should fight each other. Declare on Cleo, bring Mao in and watch the fun. Or perhaps, depending on what we find out, it should be done the other way around.

 

[Paul#42]

Nice (if barb galleys really come with Writing...).
The constellation of our rivals leaves us some options...

I plead for getting Philo asap and trading via TbP for CoL if available, Poly otherwise. Take Rep / Mon as free tech, revolt immediately. Yet I doubt we will get it in Abegweit's turnset.

Smaller topics:
Isa should switch to barracks or even an archer, he would become elite soon enough... no curragh there, it has way too far to sail.

Mining worker should stop and go 2SW-S on BG to road and mine.

Rather than mining grassland we should irrigate plains or road and mine BGs where available. (I know, I'm the right person to call that )