SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

Abegweit is right about the MM stuff. We need to do that thoroughly, it is much too early to play slumpy.

On this topic, and I've seen this before (mark, are you listening ), it is usually better to road a tile first. For example, the worker n-ne of Zimbabwe should be roading the tile so that the other two beside it can come help without wasting movement. In a more common case, two workers can road a pair of tiles (one each) and then combine to mine/irrigate them.

Keep those former Egypt towns empty, put units on the iron sources so they get no pike on the flip. When you capture them back, raze and replace the first. Do not raze the second town before army is built or new settler is there.

I think she is importing iron from somewhere so this won't work. Build wealth in this town unless you can get rid of enough resistors this turn. The flip risk is enormous.

And Ivan, please consult the war academy on the power of armies in C3C. It seems you underestimate them badly.

An MDI army is effectively a 6-3-2 unit with 12 HCP, blitz, free pillaging, and the ability to heal in enemy territory. Further, the enemy will not attack it, so it is great cover for our horses.

 

[I. Larkin]

"Keep those former Egypt towns empty, put units on the iron sources so they get no pike on the flip. When you capture them back, raze and replace the first. Do not raze the second town before army is built or new settler is there."
It will not help. If Iron City flip it will be Pickman. We have to pillage iron to avoid Pick. If you think Memphis should gone, It is OK. I'll pillage Iron Mke Army, settel on Galley and gift it to Indians.

 

[I. Larkin]

"And Ivan, please consult the war academy on the power of armies in C3C. It seems you underestimate them badly. "
I used 2 Cav Army in C3C 28. I can't say that it is much much better then 2 Cavs itself. But up to you. I have calculated others options and they are also bad.
Remove Memphis would give us 1 worker more and lot less mobility. We may abonded it when evaquate troops. In your posts nobody said about Memphis. But I think gift to Indians is much better choise. . Acctually it is very anoying to discuss things in this mode, when nobody read me promptly. I will not count how many times my advise were simply ignored without explanation. For example somebody buildt harbor and barracks in Swazi. Galley from there was the only chanse to scout China/ India inner land. The same have happend with idea to gift City.

 

[Paul#42]

I'd thought Cleo might be without Iron now, but she could get it as well from an ally. In any case, having an Impi sit on a source would prevent her from using that source on a flip. WE will need that source to upgrade our warriors before joining them to army. That's why I won't pillage any of the two before we have upgraded them. Of course keeping Heli is healthier because it has barracks which are essential for the upgrade...
Imagine Heli flipping the Interturn before our warriors go there - or even worse the turn we upgraded them
Maybe we better upgrade those warriors near Umfolozi there? That's the safer way...
We could need Iron to do that...
fastest way to Iron would be building a colony near Swazi or Ngome next turn...

BUILDING that army should take place immediately, to encourage some more luck in the next turns . I see a reg osman horse approaching. More to follow? Best lure for leader fishing...

I would place that empty army on a mountain fortified with some defense...

 

[I. Larkin]

Ask again, Gift Memphis to India???

 

[Paul#42]

In your posts nobody said about Memphis. But I think gift to Indians is much better choise. . Acctually it is very anoying to discuss things in this mode, when nobody read me promptly.

I would keep Memphis (and Heli, both empty) and retake it if it flips. Flip risk will rapidly decrease after we get Thebes. By getting us a MGL getting it is just a question of time. Sorry I did not instantly comment your suggestion.

I will not count how many times my advise were simply ignored without explanation. For example somebody buildt harbor and barracks in Swazi. Galley from there was the only chanse to scout China/ India inner land. The same have happend with idea to gift City.

You want to scout China with a galley from Swazi?!?
It would have to orbit the whole continent to get there. A galey from Mpondo migth be a issue for that purpose.
Swazi has 4 BGs to work, at 50% corruption this is 4 spt, 6 at size 6 working two forests. That's quite a number to produce horses. However I'm not sure, what the harbor there is good for but at some time it might build a trade route

It might be interesting to scout China, but the most important task of our naval exploration was to meet all rivals and get an idea of the world. Scouting the inland with Impis or scouts would take some production time and unit costs we do not have spare.
I consider that low priority facing those trouble we are having in Egypt.

 

[Paul#42]

Ask again, Gift Memphis to India???

Please, do not be so impatient.

We are in no hurry to complete this game in the next days. We need to discuss some aspects we should have discussed before the invasion and now we need some time to find a new plan.

I would also love to read something from Andro (and maybe even Mark) on this issue. But for the moment I would keep both towns and maybe raze and replace it after it had flipped.

So we will need another settler (or two) soon. Wherefrom? Ulundi, Mpondo or Bapedi (in that order of priority) would be my choice at the moment.

EDIT: Maybe gifting it to India is nice, too. I'm not gifting towns too often. Would they get a pike there immediately? I doubt. I should remember. So Cleo will take it back soon and we gain nothing - Okay Cleo migth divide her forces for that and will not gat a pike...

I'm torn about that.
Please let me sleep on it...
What do the others think?

 

[I. Larkin]

1) I'd thought Cleo might be without Iron now, but she could get it as well from an ally. In any case, having an Impi sit on a source would prevent her from using that source on a flip.
2) WE will need that source to upgrade our warriors before joining them to army. That's why I won't pillage any of the two before we have upgraded them. Of course keeping Heli is healthier because it has barracks which are essential for the upgrade...
3) Imagine Heli flipping the Interturn before our warriors go there - or even worse the turn we upgraded them
Maybe we better upgrade those warriors near Umfolozi there? That's the safer way...
4) We could need Iron to do that...
fastest way to Iron would be building a colony near Swazi or Ngome next turn...

5) BUILDING that army should take place immediately, to encourage some more luck in the next turns . I see a reg osman horse approaching. More to follow? Best lure for leader fishing...

6) I would place that empty army on a mountain fortified with some defense...

1) She has not. She is open for negotiations.
2) It was an idea, when I rushed barracks.
3)-4) I thought about it long before. (Colony). But I am so tierd to promote ideas.
5) thats why I left Memphis alive.
6) What do yo think about 2 Horse/1 Impy army? It may stay on Iron until warriors come.
I will give you more 24 hours to think.

 

[I. Larkin]

Please, do not be so impatient.

We are in no hurry to complete this game in the next days. We need to discuss some aspects we should have discussed before the invasion and now we need some time to find a new plan.

I would also love to read something from Andro (and maybe even Mark) on this issue. But for the moment I would keep both towns and maybe raze and replace it after it had flipped.

So we will need another settler (or two) soon. Wherefrom? Ulundi, Mpondo or Bapedi (in that order of priority) would be my choice at the moment.

EDIT: Maybe gifting it to India is nice, too. I'm not gifting towns too often. Would they get a pike there immediately? I doubt. I should remember. So Cleo will take it back soon and we gain nothing - Okay Cleo migth divide her forces for that and will not gat a pike...

I'm torn about that.
Please let me sleep on it...
What do the others think?

Idea is to bring all continet to war. Now only India fight for us. To trig their alliance we need this gift. India have good culture and Memphis under their goverment will not flip. As I told if it flips it will be pickman there and we will not have any chanse. We may pillage both Iron now, to have sense to stay nearby.
Good night.

 

[Paul#42]

1) She has not. She is open for negotiations.

I think you are wrong. In the 210 BC save we can't offer her Iron. She has another source

3)-4) I thought about it long before. (Colony). But I am so tierd to promote ideas.

Sorry to hear that. We are posting so much but discuss so little...

6) What do yo think about 2 Horse/1 Impy army? It may stay on Iron until warriors come.

You don't mean filling the army but placing the units on the same tile, right? Then I'm fine with it.

I will give you more 24 hours to think.

You're so kind...

 

[I. Larkin]

You don't mean filling the army but placing the units on the same tile, right? Then I'm fine with it.
I mean exactly that. To Fill Army. Only then we have chanse to take City with Pickman back.

I think you are wrong. In the 210 BC save we can't offer her Iron. She has another source
Thits Because we have no Iron in OUR capital

EDIT: Maybe gifting it to India is nice, too. I'm not gifting towns too often. Would they get a pike there immediately? I doubt. I should remember. So Cleo will take it back soon and we gain nothing - Okay Cleo migth divide her forces for that and will not gat a pike...
Cleo have no chanses. She has only 1 AC and no swords I belive. India have no Feo, so Picks will not appear. Only Spear.

 

[Abegweit]

Ask again, Gift Memphis to India???

No. Crazy idea. Utterly crazy. What possibly would be the point?

 

[Abegweit]

6) What do yo think about 2 Horse/1 Impy army? It may stay on Iron until warriors come.

As I said, the ONLY reasonable way to use the leader is to build an MDI army.

Edit: deleted. Overboard reaction.

 

[Abegweit]

Post deleted.

 

[Paul#42]

[quote deleted]

I would not put it that harsh but I back up Abegweit's decision.

Thanks for your effort, Ivan, but the ongoing dissonances make the teamplay terrible. We had our share on these problems during this game but in the last SGotm 10 we solved problems like these easier because we basically had similar thinking.

I like some of your ideas and value their influence on this game but I do not like some of your decisions also. As a result I also think we should go seperate ways.

Still I would like to state I respect you as a player and would like to communicate in other threads of this forum as we did before. Please do not take this decision personally but I think for the "team" (which is basically Abegweit and me at the moment ) it is necessary to seperate from you.

 

[Andronicus]

Oh dear,
Our post count is climbing rapidly since I last logged on but not all of it is good.
@ Abegweit - I think your ultimatum harsh. I too have found discussing with Ivan difficult. I believe this is often a language issue, although there is also the issue of lots of players on this team being decision makers. This makes for considerable difficulty in reaching a consensus. I beleive Ivan's "I will give you 24 more hours to think" was genuinely meant to mean he will wait for further discussion. I reply that more than 24 hours is required or to wait for more consensus to be reached may have been more diplomatic. We do all need to be courteous.
I guess we wait yours and Ivans response.

Re the game
My thoughts
I strongly support an MDI army ASAP. If the fastest, safest way is to build a colony on our iron in our starting area, then I would be happy to know we wont lose the MDI in a flip. We do run the risk of losing the army on the turn it is formed if done in a high risk flip town, unless we have a settler avail to settle a new town (my preferred option). My opinion is that a horse / impi army is useless for anything other than pillaging - a waste.
With the MDI army we can confidently expect to take Thebes and rapidly the surrounding area.
I agree we cannot mount an attack on Germany until we have stablised the Egyptian area and then only if it would serve us better than continuing progress on our continent. Thebes with SoZ has substantially changed the equation. If feud remains unknown on other continent then likely Sun Tzu's will be built on our continent - this will later be a target for us also. At the moment our focus must be on
1) get MDI army
2) take Thebes
3) remove Egypt from game
Taking Thebes will reduce flip risk, removing Egypt eliminates it. Meanwhile, I favour keeping cities unless can replace with settlers. Keep empty and retake if flips. AFAIK gifting a city to another civ (ie to China) can not be accompanied by any return.

 

[Paul#42]

@ Abegweit - I think your ultimatum harsh. I too have found discussing with Ivan difficult. I believe this is often a language issue, although there is also the issue of lots of players on this team being decision makers. This makes for considerable difficulty in reaching a consensus. I beleive Ivan's "I will give you 24 more hours to think" was genuinely meant to mean he will wait for further discussion. I reply that more than 24 hours is required or to wait for more consensus to be reached may have been more diplomatic. We do all need to be courteous.
I guess we wait yours and Ivans response.

However I'm not sure if we can get those two, Ivan and Abegweit, to play in a team together... That's why I made my previous post.

I strongly support an MDI army ASAP. If the fastest, safest way is to build a colony on our iron in our starting area, then I would be happy to know we wont lose the MDI in a flip. We do run the risk of losing the army on the turn it is formed if done in a high risk flip town, unless we have a settler avail to settle a new town (my preferred option).

The army can move immediately after being built, so no need to stay in a town at the end of a turn.

My opinion is that a horse / impi army is useless for anything other than pillaging - a waste.
With the MDI army we can confidently expect to take Thebes and rapidly the surrounding area.

Excactly.

I agree we cannot mount an attack on Germany until we have stablised the Egyptian area and then only if it would serve us better than continuing progress on our continent. Thebes with SoZ has substantially changed the equation. If feud remains unknown on other continent then likely Sun Tzu's will be built on our continent - this will later be a target for us also. At the moment our focus must be on
1) get MDI army
2) take Thebes
3) remove Egypt from game
Taking Thebes will reduce flip risk, removing Egypt eliminates it. Meanwhile, I favour keeping cities unless can replace with settlers. Keep empty and retake if flips. AFAIK gifting a city to another civ (ie to China) can not be accompanied by any return.

The best reason for gifting to Egypt is what Ivan stated on a reply: To trigger Indias MP against Egypt.
I do not consider this idea as absurd as Abegweit does. It has some good aspects to consider:

To deploy those MDI to Egypt will take at least 7 turns if we do the safer option to upgrade them in Umfolozi after hooking up Iron by a colony. Those seven turns we have to keep our share in Egypt in a defensive mode. It would be easier if we gifted Mempis to India, pick off Egypt units if possible, retake it if a horse or AC takes it and gift it again. We lose no money (by losing the town), can concentrate on holding Heli. India won't be able to build a pike there, not even more than a spear before we retake it after getting the rest of egypt.

Ivan is also right about Cleo not having Iron right now. Otherwise she would offer (0) sources of Iron to us.

@Andro: Nice that you found time to post. We miss you here badly...

 

[Andronicus]

The army can move immediately after being built, so no need to stay in a town at the end of a turn.

You are correct of course.

Re gifting Memphis (I'm assuming from prev discussion it was on a hill )
India would get no unit on gifting, Egypt would be able to walk in with am AC and possibly rush a pike. We then have to get rid of an AC (and poss pike) on a hill. Getting the AC in the open would be preferable.

 

[Paul#42]

Re gifting Memphis (I'm assuming from prev discussion it was on a hill )
India would get no unit on gifting, Egypt would be able to walk in with am AC and possibly rush a pike. We then have to get rid of an AC (and poss pike) on a hill. Getting the AC in the open would be preferable.

If Cleo sends her AC directly to empty Memphis (what I would place a remarkable bet on ), it would spend the interturn on the grass tiles before Memphis on the very first (and last) turn of its mayfly's life (crossing river = (1 mv), moving road to forest (1/3 mv), step on tile N or NW of Memphis. this might be the easiest way to pick off the AC.
Or am I wrong about crossing the river costing 1.0 movement? I'm always insecure if free crossing comes with Construction or later In that case an Impi on the forest might cause the AC to take the long way around with the same effect.
And as a special goody, stepping on Indian soil would trigger several MPs to our favor.

If we pillage the Iron (or have an Impi sit on it?), Cleo gets no pike but a spear if she manages to sneak by and capture it.

And finally this might distract her (and Osman's) forces from Heli and give us some breath there.

It might be worth a try.

 

[Abegweit]

@ Abegweit - I think your ultimatum harsh. I too have found discussing with Ivan difficult. I believe this is often a language issue, although there is also the issue of lots of players on this team being decision makers. This makes for considerable difficulty in reaching a consensus. I beleive Ivan's "I will give you 24 more hours to think" was genuinely meant to mean he will wait for further discussion. I reply that more than 24 hours is required or to wait for more consensus to be reached may have been more diplomatic. We do all need to be courteous.
I guess we wait yours and Ivans response.

If I misinterpreted him, then I apologise. However, in view of the way that he repeatedly makes unilateral unilateral decisions (and has made such threats before) in the middle of discussions, I doubt it.

As for your comments on the game, I agree. Paul has already noted that there is no flip irsk in making an army. It can be loaed outside a town too.