SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Andronicus]

I'm drooling over playing these turns with 3 armies and GA

The Egyptian war strategy
Thebes has flip risk according to civassist of 22-45%, requiring 248 units to prevent.
I propose leaving Thebes undefended (to allow recapture by Egyptians or Ottomen) following the flip safe IT after capture. On recapture it will lose pop -> size 11, then we retake (by force of 3 or 4 horse or MDIs left outside) -> size 10 etc. This appears to be the quickest way to get down to size 1, meanwhile Cleo is eliminated by our armies. Downsides to this are loss of gold when AI takes Thebes - I propose we spend our gold so they gain nil. Also they may time Thebes capture to gain AC - can we tell when next one due (occur every 5 turns) perhaps we could eliminate attackers the turn before to increase odds of holding it for that turn (flip remains a risk).
I strongly recommend we build 3rd MDI army at this stage. Our 3 armies can then systematically raze Cleo's cities allowing Thebes to become safe for us. Razing prevents further flips and frees our military to continue the advance rather than being held up defending captured cities. Slaves are going to be useful in developing our new lands quickly.
I propose we go Byblos -> Giza -> east -> north. Newer reinforcements from across the straight can then go after Heliopolis and Pi-Rameses (after it finishes wonder build perhaps - dont raze if builds a wonder). Apart from the 4 we can see, Cleo also has Elephantine, Alexandria and El-Amarna. Visible culture borders suggest 1 of these is east of Giza, another NE of Thebes

Commerce
As mentioned above I would like to get our gold in hand down. This can be partially achieved by embassy with England (89g) and rushing harbour in NM (108g). Remainder can be spent short rushing.
I believe it cant be too long till chivalry avail. I suggest we consider putting commerce towards Invention during our GA - this will bring down the price of Invention and hopefully allow us to purchase both Invention and Chivalry when that is avail. Then I would like to bee-line to cavalry without waiting on the AI, hopefully by time we are out of GA we will be starting to set up science farms. With cavs our conquest should be rapid.

Diplomacy
At war with all bar England - English only have 21g - if they get sig more (?100+) it would be worthwhile buying gold with gpt then triggerring America's mpp with England.
We must not have peace with AERO (Arab-Egypt-Russia-Otto) alliance until Cleo retires
JICK alliance (Japan-India-China-Korea) are all willing to give peace but at a cost. Getting peace earlier allows us to do our fake gpt for tech trick sooner.
Cheapest is Korea (40g), Japan req mono but will throw in 2 slaves +5g, India will take peace for rep giving us 26g. Any thoughts?
War with other continent doesnt hurt us, an occasional settler pair providing leader farming material + slaves.

edit - a few MM issues I propose changing
We currently have an excess of food and will shortly after our GA have a settler factory (hopefully).
I propose
- mining plains aroud Hlobane, and grass around Ulundi (the 2 not usable by Ibab)
- add workers to Ibab (mining the 2 other hills so works 3 hills)
- putting lux slider up to 30% so more tiles can be used during our GA (I think this would result in only 2 or 3 specialists).
- urgent settler to wines should allow lux back to 20%

Incidentally FP in Thebes looks good on civassist (NM even goes from 90% to under 50% corrupt), but must wait until flip safe.

 

[Abegweit]

OK. Caught up (more or less)... Paul.

I estimate that we should be able to take Cleo in about 4 turns. We know where six of her seven cities are and the last is likely to be NE of Byblos. As such, it is attractive to pocket the leader and build an FP in Thebes when she has gone to her just reward.

However...

We are strong to everyone and in GA. It is time to blast this thing open. The ACs have become a side issue. Even the FP. I won't turn them down but it remains that they will not have a great impact on the outcome. IMO, it is time to open two more fronts, one in Germany and the second in Japan/India.

I note that we actually have two galley-transportable armies (an army with one MDI and a leader). I would send them both to the other continent. It is time to start making inroads there as that will the limiting factor on our win date.

On research: I see no reason to go for cavs. Get Knights ASAP and then shut it down. This will be enough.

One last point: we badly need the Egyptian luxes and I don't understand why our settlers are in the south.

 

[Paul#42]

I'm drooling over playing these turns with 3 armies and GA

Fine, we could need to get hot on this one again after being cooled down by organisational issues...

The Egyptian war strategy
Thebes has flip risk according to civassist of 22-45%, requiring 248 units to prevent.
I propose leaving Thebes undefended (to allow recapture by Egyptians or Ottomen) following the flip safe IT after capture. On recapture it will lose pop -> size 11, then we retake (by force of 3 or 4 horse or MDIs left outside) -> size 10 etc. This appears to be the quickest way to get down to size 1, meanwhile Cleo is eliminated by our armies. Downsides to this are loss of gold when AI takes Thebes - I propose we spend our gold so they gain nil. Also they may time Thebes capture to gain AC - can we tell when next one due (occur every 5 turns) perhaps we could eliminate attackers the turn before to increase odds of holding it for that turn (flip remains a risk).

Yes, d'accord. We shoudl be able to calculate the AC-issuing dates by its build date. It was build 550 BC, i.e. turn 100. We are currently #130, so it should issue a new one (or it did the last turn). I can remember to have an AC crushing against an Impi on the Iron mountain and I did not write this down . Pity both for my record and for this calculation

I strongly recommend we build 3rd MDI army at this stage. Our 3 armies can then systematically raze Cleo's cities allowing Thebes to become safe for us.

Yes, third army might be in order.

Razing prevents further flips and frees our military to continue the advance rather than being held up defending captured cities. Slaves are going to be useful in developing our new lands quickly.

Razing attracts other rivals settler from both continents. We would have to cover empty lands anyway, so I would rather keep some of those towns (those on good sites) with an MDI adjacent. Raze only the misplaced.

I propose we go Byblos -> Giza -> east -> north. Newer reinforcements from across the straight can then go after Heliopolis and Pi-Rameses (after it finishes wonder build perhaps - dont raze if builds a wonder).

Sounds okay to me.

Commerce
As mentioned above I would like to get our gold in hand down. This can be partially achieved by embassy with England (89g) and rushing harbour in NM (108g). Remainder can be spent short rushing.
I believe it cant be too long till chivalry avail. I suggest we consider putting commerce towards Invention during our GA - this will bring down the price of Invention and hopefully allow us to purchase both Invention and Chivalry when that is avail. Then I would like to bee-line to cavalry without waiting on the AI, hopefully by time we are out of GA we will be starting to set up science farms. With cavs our conquest should be rapid.

I won't do any research (this game?). We should rather be able to buy all techs by gpt.
Fighting pikes and spears is quite okay with Impis, horses, MDIs and armies. We had very few losses in my turnset.

Diplomacy
At war with all bar England - English only have 21g - if they get sig more (?100+) it would be worthwhile buying gold with gpt then triggerring America's mpp with England.

I would do it for less (40-50g)
We could make peace quickly with America if we need peace with England for some reason.

We must not have peace with AERO (Arab-Egypt-Russia-Otto) alliance until Cleo retires
JICK alliance (Japan-India-China-Korea) are all willing to give peace but at a cost. Getting peace earlier allows us to do our fake gpt for tech trick sooner.
Cheapest is Korea (40g), Japan req mono but will throw in 2 slaves +5g, India will take peace for rep giving us 26g. Any thoughts?

Nice invention of JICK and AERO
I'll think about that later.

War with other continent doesnt hurt us, an occasional settler pair providing leader farming material + slaves.

I would only love to have them fight each other, but this is tough this game...

We currently have an excess of food and will shortly after our GA have a settler factory (hopefully).
I propose
- mining plains aroud Hlobane, and grass around Ulundi (the 2 not usable by Ibab)
- add workers to Ibab (mining the 2 other hills so works 3 hills)
- putting lux slider up to 30% so more tiles can be used during our GA (I think this would result in only 2 or 3 specialists).
- urgent settler to wines should allow lux back to 20%

Yes, sounds nice.

Incidentally FP in Thebes looks good on civassist (NM even goes from 90% to under 50% corrupt), but must wait until flip safe.

Wow. Cool. Second core
We might even raze some of our towns in ugly lands to lessen corruption...

 

[Paul#42]

I estimate that we should be able to take Cleo in about 4 turns. We know where six of her seven cities are and the last is likely to be NE of Byblos. As such, it is attractive to pocket the leader and build an FP in Thebes when she has gone to her just reward.

I think you are too optimistic. Most of our forces need some rest. I now think I made a mistake to pull our forces into Thebes as they will need one more turn to rest that way and we won't quell the resistance anyway bad habit.

IMO, it is time to open two more fronts, one in Germany and the second in Japan/India.

Again Iconsider this too optimistic. Yet I'm not optimistic enough most of the time, so I might be wrong. And our bad position should encourage us for some daredevilish action...

I note that we actually have two galley-transportable armies (an army with one MDI and a leader). I would send them both to the other continent. It is time to start making inroads there as that will the limiting factor on our win date.

I'd agree to send one over, but use the other in Egypt. We can definetely use two armies there and will hopefully get more to send over.

On research: I see no reason to go for cavs. Get Knights ASAP and then shut it down. This will be enough.

D'accord. No active research.

One last point: we badly need the Egyptian luxes and I don't understand why our settlers are in the south.

Sorry - my pessimism. I was just thinking scientist towns. I did not think we could settle Egypt so fast. I recommend to rush some settlers in towns around Bapedi and join workers there or even suspend them if we build FP in Thebes.

 

[Abegweit]

You're right, Paul. After looking at the situation more closely I can see that our troops in Egypt are tired and many more are out of position. It will take some time to finish her off completely. It remains that we have the upper hand and will have no problem finishing the job, likely during Andronicus' turns.

So it is time to open up the second front. Because we cannot ferry armies between the two continent, we have to choose which one gets the extra. It seems obvious to me that this should be the one that we haven't already hurt.

D'accord. No active research.

You misunderstood me here. I meant to get chivalry and then shut it down. Don't trust the AI to do the job for you. We need knights.

 

[Paul#42]

So it is time to open up the second front. Because we cannot ferry armies between the two continent, we have to choose which one gets the extra. It seems obvious to me that this should be the one that we haven't already hurt.You misunderstood me here. I meant to get chivalry and then shut it down. Don't trust the AI to do the job for you. We need knights.

We can get chivalry in ~8-10 turns if we get Egypt luxes connected soon.
We will need 120 bucks for every single horse we upgrade. That's quite a sum if the AI does not provide too much of it...
However I admit having chiv first would give us some boost. So go for it.

Yes, shipping both (MGL should build another army) armies to Germany might make some sense. It would really make a speedy conquest over there...
I also do think that we can keep Egypt with "conventional" forces once we have elim... elem... killed Cleo. It would provide nice leader fishing there.

So Andro, have some fun with armies and Golden Age

 

[Andronicus]

I think we require 2 armies in Egypt to put a speedy end to Cleo, the 3rd army can certainly go to Germany to wreck havoc over there. Dont have the save in front of me but I seem to recall not a lot of iron connected up (OK just checked - only France has iron) on other continent. If French iron is pillaged the other continent should be a pushover.
I suggest 1 MDI army is entrusted with task of pillaging iron then knights can be shipped over with little resistance.
I make it 11 turns to chivalry at 80% science, hopefully this can be sped up to ? 10 turns. Then we make approx 70gpt if turn science to zero allowing upgrade every 2 turns. Currently have 18 horses though a 5 are elites (not counting 2 *e). Getting freebie money from AI would obviously help.
If we spend our money so as not to lose it to AI by allowing Thebes to change hands (and thereby decrease in size), we can only manage 14 turn research without losing too much gold. We need to rush harbour to get wines online which assists above goal.

Any advice about best way to manage flip risk in Thebes or is my suggestion in prev post OK?

 

[markh]

2 armies in Egypt and 1 army in Germany sounds fine.

I usually use these tactics, too in situations like we have with Thebes. Seems like the easiest way to handle it.

 

[Paul#42]

I think we require 2 armies in Egypt to put a speedy end to Cleo, the 3rd army can certainly go to Germany to wreck havoc over there. Dont have the save in front of me but I seem to recall not a lot of iron connected up (OK just checked - only France has iron) on other continent. If French iron is pillaged the other continent should be a pushover.

I'm indifferent where to put the second army - use it in Egypt if you like.

Any advice about best way to manage flip risk in Thebes or is my suggestion in prev post OK?

Is the captured money based on size of the city? Otherwise it would be just 1/17 = 20g - that's not nice but we can cope with the loss. If we rush harbor and upgrade the vet warrior soon, it won't be much more than 10g we lose.
Different if size matters - 12/75 is nearly 1/6, ~50g we lose, that's annoying. I recall it should not be based on size.

So I do not fear the retake.
Yet I'd not encourage Ottomans horses but would pick them off in front of the gates. If we finish Cleo before it flips, we can quell resistance and have some population to rush some settlers or slaves.
However it's just a small difference - if we let Russia (95g, 8 towns) take the city, we should get back nearly the same money they robbed us

prospected AC issue
An AC was issued in the last IBT or in the next . After that turn we have three turns we can frankly give Thebes away if we want to downsize it...

 

[Andronicus]

Question Paul
Where were you intending the southern settlers settle - the 2 gold hills or gold hill and plains (ie where they are standing). Settling those 2 will get us an extra 4 unit support.

 

[Paul#42]

Question Paul
Where were you intending the southern settlers settle - the 2 gold hills or gold hill and plains (ie where they are standing). Settling those 2 will get us an extra 4 unit support.

There are three sites far south, two on gold hills and one on plain. Those I consider equivalent, I don't think corruption leaves us a benefit from the gold hill. I had moved the one on the plain before I had razed Karachi , otherwise I would have settled on both gold hills first.
Found the one gold hill first and if it gets no extra commerce, found the other where the settler is. Else move the western settler to the other gold hill to gain some mid term profit for two extra moves. It also adds six extra tiles for our depressing territory stats...

 

[Paul#42]

Did you guys check the "latest" Gotm-Results? We had our share of the medlas there

Although this other German guy really makes it difficult to achieve gold one day...

 

[Andronicus]

OK playing now.
Newest MGL will form MDI army -> Germany
Other 2 MDI armies will Cleo

edit
Progress report 110AD turn 3
2 pieces of bad luck - Thebes flipped on IT after turn 1 (first poss time) and Cleo got an AC
Was able to kill AC but not enough healthy units to take out her free spear on flipping
1st MDI army has razed Byblos
2nd MDI army filled and hopefully will retake Thebes next turn
3rd MDI army awaiting 2 more MDI to board galley and sail to Germany
Est embassy with England - they are at war with FGS alliance, gave us all their gold for MA v Germany
India will give peace straight up, I'm holding out a little longer for a better offr (besides some Chinese units in our area I want to dispose of first.
Wines settled and harbour in NM so we have 2nd lux.

 

[Paul#42]

2 pieces of bad luck - Thebes flipped on IT after turn 1 (first poss time) and Cleo got an AC
Was able to kill AC but not enough healthy units to take out her free spear on flipping

Maybe we should let one russian or ottoman horse take it. Does Cleo have enough money to rush another spear? At least no pikes...

1st MDI army has razed Byblos

We'll have to resettle that soon, other AI will send their settler combos quickly. It's like if you are bleeding in shark waters...
However - easy targets for leader fishing - but I don't think we have spare units for that right now...

2nd MDI army filled and hopefully will retake Thebes next turn
3rd MDI army awaiting 2 more MDI to board galley and sail to Germany
Est embassy with England - they are at war with FGS alliance, gave us all their gold for MA v Germany.

India will give peace straight up, I'm holding out a little longer for a better offr (besides some Chinese units in our area I want to dispose of first.

I think we have to sign peace soon (to be able to cancel it soon ) but we will encounter the problem that we can't take out their settler combos any more then. But in 20 turns even the AI should not be able to build more than one spear in a corrupt town, right?

Do we want rop with them to send over an Impi for exploration?

 

[Andronicus]

Update turn 8 190AD
Thebes retaken finally - had 5 spears!!!
2nd turn after it flipped again and again has an AC!!!
Holding out on peace with JICK as Tietsin size 2 and about to be captured and also planning on taking Nagoya
Elephantine should fall next turn (unless it has 5 spears too - 2 already disposed of).
I expect to capture Liepzig next 2 turn which should provide nice base for other continent.
Third force of MDIs and trebs (ie slow units) heading NE from Mpondo to start breackout through Nagoya
Still 2-3 turns from chivalry

 

[markh]

A stupid question from our second German on the team. Do we ever get ACs without ivory hooked up ? I do not have the map in mind. Is ivory around Thebes ?

Congratulations Paul and Andronicus on the GOTM results.

 

[Paul#42]

Update turn 8 190AD
Thebes retaken finally - had 5 spears!!!
2nd turn after it flipped again and again has an AC!!! [...]
Still 2-3 turns from chivalry

Ouch. That's tough luck.
Cleo needs 16 shields to build a spear - that should take two turns or much money for rushing. How did she do that?!?

I hope you could still enjoy our GA...

 

[Paul#42]

A stupid question from our second German on the team. Do we ever get ACs without ivory hooked up ? I do not have the map in mind. Is ivory around Thebes ?

Only starting SoZ is tied to having Ivory, ACs come even if no ivory is connected.

Congratulations Paul and Andronicus on the GOTM results.

Thanks a lot.
It's getting easier finally, with all those big dogs departed...

 

[markh]

Only starting SoZ is tied to having Ivory, ACs come even if no ivory is connected.

Hm, I just checked the units page here at civfanatics and there it is mentioned that for ancient cavalry ivory is required. Maybe it is meant that it is required to build the Statue of Zeus. I hope so.

 

[Abegweit]

Congratulations Paul and Andronicus on the GOTM results.

Hey! What about me? Don't I deserve anything? After all I beat out Paul.

I'm still ticked off at myself for COTM28. I see I finished 230 years earlier than Chamnix... just one hour late. BTW, does anyone know how to get a Jason score for an unsubmitted game? Or maybe I don't want to know.