SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits
- Thread starter AlanH
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JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
All summary posts updated.
I think we had a good turnset plan laid out by McArine, should continue to follow that. Agreed that only 3 AIs are seemingly worth trading with
I think we had a good turnset plan laid out by McArine, should continue to follow that. Agreed that only 3 AIs are seemingly worth trading with
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
I agree that Gandhi, Roosevelt, and Churchill are the most likely prospects for tech trading partners. But let's not get that idea too fixed in our minds. Trade with the others is possible, just more difficult and will hit their WFYABTA limits faster.
But we currently are in no danger of hitting those limits, since we have made zero trades.
For our next tech, I would like to decide based on what we need. If it helps a trade/peace deal, great, but from what we are seeing we can not count on that. This makes Alpha a risky choice, since it may provide no value.
BW could be useful, especially with all the food at our capital. Growing into unhappiness and then whipping settlers (getting the Imperialistic bonus on the whipped hammers) is quite powerful. But if we are planning to run 2 scientists for an early academy, we will not be whipping for some time. And trade value is questionable, since we already see a couple AIs in slavery. They can trade BW to Gandhi, assuming they meet him.
But we currently are in no danger of hitting those limits, since we have made zero trades.
For our next tech, I would like to decide based on what we need. If it helps a trade/peace deal, great, but from what we are seeing we can not count on that. This makes Alpha a risky choice, since it may provide no value.
BW could be useful, especially with all the food at our capital. Growing into unhappiness and then whipping settlers (getting the Imperialistic bonus on the whipped hammers) is quite powerful. But if we are planning to run 2 scientists for an early academy, we will not be whipping for some time. And trade value is questionable, since we already see a couple AIs in slavery. They can trade BW to Gandhi, assuming they meet him.
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I propose we continue with ianw1610's test plan below, simply because it goes further to turn 105. Note that the last test plan gains some hight sight from the previous test plans, thus it should be better. If anyone thinks another test plan is significantly better, please let us know.
The good news is we are 2 turns ahead in Research (completed Writing in t34 rather than t36) and 4 turns ahead in building (completed Warrior in t36 rather than t40).
We should start Mathematics now. Mathematics alone might be enough to make Peace with Gandhi. Gandhi researching The Wheel and Pottery was exactly what I had hoped for. This did preserve our Fishing and Animal Husbandry, but most importantly allowed us to trade Writing to Gandhi. Writing, Fishing and Animal Husbandry wasn't enough, possibly because Fishing and Animal Husbandry are becoming well known to other AIs and thus lose much of their value, Gandhi must know these AIs for the devaluation to occur, right?
We can follow with Code of Laws which we should be able to use in trade for Alphabet. Hopefully, we can trade for Mysticism, Polytheism and Priesthood or at least 2 of these 3 (after we trade Mathematics to Gandhi for Peace).
The natural length of this Turn Set would be turns needed to complete Mathematics. I will determine Gandhi's terms for Peace and we can discuss the various options for making Peace with Gandhi for execution in the following Turn Set.
Sun Tzu Wu
The good news is we are 2 turns ahead in Research (completed Writing in t34 rather than t36) and 4 turns ahead in building (completed Warrior in t36 rather than t40).
We should start Mathematics now. Mathematics alone might be enough to make Peace with Gandhi. Gandhi researching The Wheel and Pottery was exactly what I had hoped for. This did preserve our Fishing and Animal Husbandry, but most importantly allowed us to trade Writing to Gandhi. Writing, Fishing and Animal Husbandry wasn't enough, possibly because Fishing and Animal Husbandry are becoming well known to other AIs and thus lose much of their value, Gandhi must know these AIs for the devaluation to occur, right?
We can follow with Code of Laws which we should be able to use in trade for Alphabet. Hopefully, we can trade for Mysticism, Polytheism and Priesthood or at least 2 of these 3 (after we trade Mathematics to Gandhi for Peace).
The natural length of this Turn Set would be turns needed to complete Mathematics. I will determine Gandhi's terms for Peace and we can discuss the various options for making Peace with Gandhi for execution in the following Turn Set.
Sun Tzu Wu
Did try to post yesterday but lost them and am unable to copy paste at work.
Techs agree with Math, with our workable tiles we don't want to be whipping atm esp if we are running scientists. Chopping until we have more health we only have 1 forest to chop in the BFC so BW no real help there. Not sure if we can get CoL after math or do we need priest as well?
Techs agree with Math, with our workable tiles we don't want to be whipping atm esp if we are running scientists. Chopping until we have more health we only have 1 forest to chop in the BFC so BW no real help there. Not sure if we can get CoL after math or do we need priest as well?
Lost another post at work why I can do some and not others I don't know. Anyway I've changed my mind on tech and think we should go for the wheel next. As health is a big issue by the time the gold is mined we can road it then the cow giving us 1 extra health. I still would have preferred to do the 2 cows first as one of our big problems (is) will be lack of workers.
I would change the warrior to worker this turn and then back to warrior/lib. We have a good city site with the cow/ivory and able to share the fish to the West. Obviously we will know more when we have a bit of exploring done. Potentially has the opportunity to build GLh there as well?
The lib will be speed up as a build with the gold on tap. The second worker can then move to the second gold as well speeding it up even more and help with our next settler.
One of the main things is how long can we delay the Oracle? Especially if we want CS from it.
Looking at the proposed plan how many workers were built?
I would change the warrior to worker this turn and then back to warrior/lib. We have a good city site with the cow/ivory and able to share the fish to the West. Obviously we will know more when we have a bit of exploring done. Potentially has the opportunity to build GLh there as well?
The lib will be speed up as a build with the gold on tap. The second worker can then move to the second gold as well speeding it up even more and help with our next settler.
One of the main things is how long can we delay the Oracle? Especially if we want CS from it.
Looking at the proposed plan how many workers were built?
It is unclear from the test save whether a second worker was built early, I think this is essential, would agree to swap to a worker soon.
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I'll be busy Thursday and Saturday this week. There is a good chance that I could do the Turn Set on Friday, assuming we have a plan we can all agree to by then.
If haphazard1 is willing to swap with me in the order, I'd be OK with it. It could save us up to a day. I may not be able to comment on anything Thursday.
haphazard1, please let me know if you'd like to swap roster positions temporarily.
Thanks,
Sun Tzu Wu
If haphazard1 is willing to swap with me in the order, I'd be OK with it. It could save us up to a day. I may not be able to comment on anything Thursday.
haphazard1, please let me know if you'd like to swap roster positions temporarily.
Thanks,
Sun Tzu Wu
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I would prefer to pursue Mathematics right now. The -1 Health is only reducing our Growth from 7 Fpt down to 6 Fpt. I see making Peace with Gandhi as our biggest short term goal and we are probably going to need Mathematics to do it. As our Population grows to Happiness cap, we can work a second Grassland Cow Pasture and Clam Nets for 4F each, thus maintaining a reasonable Growth rate.
We need to consider improving our Happiness cap from 5 to 8, so we can work Fish, Clam, both Cows, both Gold Tiles and 2 Scientists. We can't also afford to -6 Health, so we do need The Wheel soon, so we can connect Cows and Rice (+2). Some of the Unhealthiness (-2) will disappear with the Fallout. So we still have -2 Health at Pop 8. A Granary will give us (+1 with Rice) and we can live with -1 Health if necessary.
I agree that we need The Wheel, but I'm hoping that with one Gold Mine and then two Gold Mines our Research rate will rise dramatically and we can start The Wheel after Mathematics or possibly trade it from Gandhi (after we get Peace with him). Our Health at Population 6 would be -2 (decreased by 2 via cleaning 4 more Tiles of Fallout).
I would be fine with Worker -> Library -> Warrior. Don't forget that the Creative trait provides us with early era double Build speed Libraries. The Warrior would be completed in 10-20 turns (depending on Growth and Gold Mines worked), after the Worker and Library. Without Barbarians, the Warrior doesn't seem too urgent, but we will probably need it soon for +1 Happiness.
ianw1610's test run completed Priesthood on turn 63 and I presume started The Oracle immediately. He completed The Oracle for Civil Service on turn 76.
ianw1610, can you please tell us how many Workers you built in your test run?
Sun Tzu Wu
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Sun Tzu Wu,
Unfortunately this is not a good time for me to be up. I will be out of town next week to attend a friend's wedding, so I am putting in extra hours at work to get ahead of things. I do not think I could play before Sunday at the earliest.
I like Math at this point. If we really want the Oracle for CS, then we need to keep working on the key techs for that and do not have time for Wheel right now. If we do not want CS but are willing to take a cheaper tech like CoL or Metal Casting, then we should probably be going for the religious techs now. But with two golds I think we should go for the CS slingshot, so we need Math now.
I do think we should go worker first. Not only to speed up the capital development but prepare for our second city as well. Because of happiness issues after the worker I think we should go warrior - lib but need to do the math and am at work so no access to the save.
Pretty certain we can't road fallout squares so the wheel wouldn't be much help in building roads to our next city. It will give us the ability to build chariots if needed though. Now just hope this posts!!
Pretty certain we can't road fallout squares so the wheel wouldn't be much help in building roads to our next city. It will give us the ability to build chariots if needed though. Now just hope this posts!!
ianw1610
King
If I remember rightly, my 2nd worker in the test game was built after the Library and before The Oracle. I beelined to get the Academy, so didn't fit it in any earlier.
A significant difference with the test game is that the central tile of the capital was a 1-hammer tile on that occasion, versus being a 2-hammer tile in the real game, so our builds in the capital from now on should be much faster, compared to the test game.
A significant difference with the test game is that the central tile of the capital was a 1-hammer tile on that occasion, versus being a 2-hammer tile in the real game, so our builds in the capital from now on should be much faster, compared to the test game.
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That's fine. I'll play Friday, assuming we come to an PPP agreement by then.
Sun Tzu Wu
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Since our Capital just grew to Pop 3, a Worker now would be also be more efficient than growing partway to Pop 4 and starting a Worker then. Waiting until Pop 4 is also perhaps a bit too long plus we are already at -1 Health.
I'm strongly in favor of a Worker right now, followed by a double Production speed Library -> Warrior.
After we get Peace with Gandhi via "gift" of Mathematics, we can trade for The Wheel or even Research it.
My PPP isn't very formal, but this will be another "simple" Turn Set (till Mathematics is completed). I just don't have much time to do a more formal PPP. If anyone doesn't agree or doesn't understand it, please make your concerns know.
Assuming agreement on the PPP by Friday evening, I will play my Turn Set then (24 hours from now).
Sun Tzu Wu
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
I agree we should go for a second worker now -- we need the worker-turns to speed development and begin preparations for a second city.
But after the worker, I am not sure if it should be library-warrior or warrior-library. We will get unhappiness without a garrison unit if we grow any larger; as long as this is taken into account then I am OK with either option.
Otherwise the general plan looks fine to me, Sun Tzu Wu. Good luck!
But after the worker, I am not sure if it should be library-warrior or warrior-library. We will get unhappiness without a garrison unit if we grow any larger; as long as this is taken into account then I am OK with either option.
Otherwise the general plan looks fine to me, Sun Tzu Wu. Good luck!
Agreed but, as haphazard1 said, no point going into unhappiness over it. Mathematics also seems the best option.
Good luck
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Yes, I understand that after the Worker, we may be forced to complete a Warrior before the Library due to otherwise exceeding the Happiness Cap. However, if the Gold Mines can be completed soon enough, it will increase Hammers from the current 4 Hpt to 10 Hpt which will allow the Library to be completed shortly (2 x 10 Hpt = 20 Hpt) after growing to Pop 4 (At Happiness Cap) and the Warrior can be completed just before Pop 5 (Allowing us to stay at Happiness Cap).
Next Turn Set: After Mathematics and Peace with Gandhi we can trade for Sailing perhaps and gain +1 Happiness for connected Gold. Trade for The Wheel and build a Road on a Cow Pasture and build a Rice Farm and connect it.
Forgot to mention plans for 1st Warrior: Explore nearby area efficiently, but not wander too far from Capital that it can't rush back to defend the it, at least until the 2nd Warrior is completed.
Anything not specifically planned (like builds after Worker -> Library -> Warrior) shall be taken from ianw1610's test run and adapted to the Current real Game situation.
If anything alarmingly dangerous transpires, I will cut the Turn Set short of it goal of completing Mathematics.
Sun Tzu Wu
McArine
King
I'm good with the plan for the turnset. Just one thing that's bothering me:
In my test games I'm pretty sure I got gold as connected, as soon as it was mined. That was without Sailing.
In my test games I'm pretty sure I got gold as connected, as soon as it was mined. That was without Sailing.
Good Luck Sun Tzu Wu on your turnset. The exploring warrior should scout around the ivory imho to try and see the best city sites available. The important thing to remember for all of us is when scouting the coast make sure we can see all the available tiles. Always a pain when you miss a fish.
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I'll be starting my Turn Set in 30-60 minutes from now.
Thanks to Everyone who provided input on the PPP. Special thanks to everyone who ran a test run! We will play far better as a result, despite a few unexpected differences between the test runs and the real Game.
Sun Tzu Wu
Thanks to Everyone who provided input on the PPP. Special thanks to everyone who ran a test run! We will play far better as a result, despite a few unexpected differences between the test runs and the real Game.
Sun Tzu Wu
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