SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Just to keep the spam rolling...
but this is not spam, is needed!

Ok, just to prove a point (apologize to everyone else that me and Blub are spamming a bit here):

I played the extra turns to T78 in my test, with T78 the logical comparison point, since I spent a turn revolting.
We have the 3rd worker, BW, AG AND Pottery already. Also 30 stored.

OK, my target was to try to have BW with a turn 75 limit. So, i think you're right, it's not worth researching it.
I'm still unsure of writing before the wheel. Your early library is not worth much.
If i can have a turn 74 Oracle with StPete in better shape and more land improved or cleaned or roaded it's worth the dealy, but no more than turn 74.
And mainly, more land explored by our chariot.

And, BTW, i thought your nick was Fluorescent and only after a post by Beestar i read it correctly.
And, BTW 2, where is Beestar?

Another point, before we decide in a way or another.
Are you sure we don't want revolt to Slavery? Since it's a free civics change, we must decide now. Surely no one of us wants to waste a turn of anarchy.
For what i can see, for once, it would be better than Caste, even assuming we'll never or almost never whip in Moscow.
The other option can be to wait to research BW before revolt, but it seems stupid. Just to show it.

 

[beestar]

Hey guys, I'm here, I just don't have as much to contribute on the detailed planning. My major push is to promote early scouting, as a lot will depend on the nearby resource & AI situation.

Also I intend to update the Google Docs spreadsheet with all the AI details

 

[pnp_dredd]

Great discussions guys.

I think we want BW, so that we can revolt to slavery with CS, and also to chop forests. It would be nice to have it before CS, but not 100% necessary if it only comes a turn or so afterwards. We're putting ourselves a little behind the REX curve with this Oracle gambit, so we really want to maximise production with slavery.

The third worker is important, as we'll want to spam settlers, so don't really want to have to pause growth for workers.

Can I suggest that we play the turns through till turn 80, and by that stage we need at least:
CS/slavery
3 workers
1 (or 2) settlers, and the cows city site cleared
a lot of extra hammers
All specials cleared and connected.

Forests can be cleared, and tell us if you've whipped.

The tests all seem pretty close, so it will be the number of settlers and extra hammers that break the tie.

 

[Fluroscent]

I somehow feel that Caste might be even better to do with a free revolt, since we could work one or two merchants in StP if we don't need to spam military.

With StP being low food, and Moscow being a bureau capital and all, we certainly don't gain anything from whipping any of those cities, so I think we won't need slavery till we begin whipping libraries/universities for Oxford, where we will want OR too, so we can do a double switch when we get Mono instead.

There is one flaw in my plan otherwise, and that is that by completing Oracle two turns before the GS, we run a small risk that we pop a GPro instead. Well, what did we say about not wanting a middle of the pack finish again?

 

[Fluroscent]

I think we want BW, so that we can revolt to slavery with CS, and also to chop forests. It would be nice to have it before CS, but not 100% necessary if it only comes a turn or so afterwards. We're putting ourselves a little behind the REX curve with this Oracle gambit, so we really want to maximise production with slavery.

We cannot really maximize production with slavery here.
I also disagree that this approach puts us behind on REX, since the early Bureau comes with an extra whopper being IMP. Settlers are very very fast out the gate of Moscow after Bureau. And the commerce boost is just as important in affording the new cities as finding the hammers themselves.
Remember, the next big goal is to get six cities for Oxford. No way a later Oracle can simultaneously get to Education and six cities as fast.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, we need a vote!
Pnp wants slavery, Fluro Caste and i don't remember if anyone else expressed his opinion somewhere.

So, we need a vote for what to revolt with CS
a) Caste (no need to research BW)
b) Slavery (we need to delay Oracle for BW, some 4 turns)

I for me, i abstain or will take position after seen your opinions. Why? usually a Captain have an opinion...
Well i like Caste, but we need food to use it properly. I'm a total disaster (or almost) using slavery, since i use Caste in the most of my games. And we need food for slavery, though.

So gentlemen, please express your vote, so we can plan until turn 80.

Since we're voting, do we revolt to Confu after the Oracle?
1) Yes
2) No

I vote 1) Yes.

 

[Fluroscent]

I don't see a reason to decide this yet. We might well be wiser by the time we near the Oracle.
What we do need to decide is whether we go writing-wheel or wheel-writing.

Either way, I think we should figure it out by discussion, and not vote, since there have been no real demonstrations on how we would actually use either slavery or caste. Which is why I think it is a minor issue compared to how fast we can get our bureau capital running.

 

[BLubmuz]

I don't see a reason to decide this yet. We might well be wiser by the time we near the Oracle.
What we do need to decide is whether we go writing-wheel or wheel-writing.

Either way, I think we should figure it out by discussion, and not vote, since there have been no real demonstrations on how we would actually use either slavery or caste. Which is why I think it is a minor issue compared to how fast we can get our bureau capital running.

Sorry, i disagree. While it's true that now we need to decide between Wri-Wheel or Wheel-Wri, we surely need to decide this soon, since it will influence our research after PH and consequently the Oracle date.
It's useless run to have CS soon if we decide for slavery, then to research BW.
Surely we want avoid a double civics change.

So, better have this discussion now than later, we can have more time to evaluate the pros and cons.

Also a vote is not to be intended as the last resource, it only helps to see where we are. The discussion can help to form our opinions, my target in putting the question to vote was this.

Thinking more on it, both those civics give the best with high food cities, which we can't know if we can have.
So, they're both weak in this scenario and in a space game slavery is weaker than Caste, IMHO.
But, since slavery requires a delay in our Bureaucratic Capital, i think i'm more in favor of Caste.

There's still the "religious question", what about it?

But since you're right about the Wri first or Wheel first problem, i put it to vote too
What tech to research after Fishing?
a) The Wheel
b) Writing

I vote for a) for the reasons i stated in my previous posts.

Please let's vote quickly, the game has to proceed!

 

[Fluroscent]

Surely we want avoid a double civics change.

Ok, if that is the choice, then we are looking at the benefit of slavery being equivalent to approximately four turns of bureaucracy. Caste is free when we switch, so why not? We want to reevaluate civics anyway when we know more about what kind of core empire we will have.

No suprise, my vote is a firm NO to slavery then (as long as it doesn't serve us well that is ).
Also consider that we would delay AG too, which will delay StP growth.

There's still the "religious question", what about it?

That we definitely do not need to answer right now. I think it is likely that we will benefit from it though.

Oh and Writing obviously
Although it looks like a contest on who sold their product best, it would be best if other ppl would do some testing too.

 

[havr]

Ok, just to prove a point (apologize to everyone else that me and Blub are spamming a bit here):

That is what happens when you join Fifth Element. That is how you get to be #1 in posts! (and middle of the pack in the really important metrics...)

 

[unclethrill]

I would like to run a few tests before I make any decisions but here is my leaning on issues since this is an UNOFFICIAL vote and my opinions can change.

1. Religion change is way off but it will help us with happiness. Otherwise we really won't need to revolt until we can switch to OR and really benefit from infrastructure building

2. Slavery or caste is about a wash. It depends on how we want to build our strategy. The top teams slave and often. I prefer Caste because it is a bit more relaxed from a MM standpoint but that is the middle of the pack attitude. I think we need BW sooner than later and we should whip the heck out of anything we can always being sure to maximize hammer overflow.

3. Wheel v. Writing ??? Well the way I see it, we have horses so the wheel allows us to build chariots which are deadly against Axemen so they can keep us safe for a good while. On the other side, writing allows us to get an increase in research immediately. Without the benefit of actually playing the tests, I have to lean on Wheel. Hooking up the resources will provide happiness/healthiness and those Chariots are awesome protectors. With that said, playing safe doesn't win Gold so writing may be better. I know this decision is holding up the next TS but it will be 24 hours before I can play so ...

What is Cas's idea on the matter since he is up?

 

[BLubmuz]

That is what happens when you join Fifth Element. That is how you get to be #1 in posts! (and middle of the pack in the really important metrics...)

It was a nice discussion debating slightly different strategies, not the spamming of SG11! shame on you!
In any case i can affirm that many of Dhoom's ideas where good. Pity his strategy wasn't good enough. And it was a pain reading all those novels.

Although it looks like a contest on who sold their product best, it would be best if other ppl would do some testing too.

ah... so we have 2 differnt products to sale... funny

OK, can you please test the following?
research AH-Fish-Wheel-Wri, then the path to PH
after the worker - WB - worker, build WB - warrior - Lib - worker - settler
Worker 2 will be ready right when W1 finishes to scrub, so you can stack both to build the pasture, then road it. then you move one on the Wgold and the other on the SW gold, road both, then scrub/mine the W gold with the 2 workers
set research to 0 for 2 turns while building the library and working the gold
then scrub/mine the SW gold, then, well maybe you can do better than me, you already did with the worker (i acknowledge this, i'm not sarcastic, really)

From time to time keep an eye to the AI, opening WB.
Then tell me (us) what do you think. Cheers!

 

[pnp_dredd]

Ok, if that is the choice, then we are looking at the benefit of slavery being equivalent to approximately four turns of bureaucracy. Caste is free when we switch, so why not? We want to reevaluate civics anyway when we know more about what kind of core empire we will have.

This is a good point. But it's actually slavery + earlier chops being equivalent to 4 turns of bureaucracy. As you said, we can decide a little later.

writing vs wheel:

Writing allows us to build a library earlier during the growth phase, which gives us flexibility afterwards to run scientists whenever optimal.

Wheel allows connecting the cows earlier (so gains some early food otherwise lost to unhealthiness), and allows more "other stuff" before a library. If the "other stuff" is a worker then we probably end up with more improved tiles in the end.

On balance, I prefer the flexibility that we gain from having a library. There might be 10 excellent city sites that we find, and therefore we'll actually want to settle 4 cities before CS. In this case having the library built early allows more flexibility to change our plans. With a later library, we need to stick more closely to our pre-planning in order to time COL/oracle properly (Flexibility is also the reason I prefer slavery over caste, but we don't need to make that decision yet.)


Also, I'd like for us to come to a consensus, rather than having majority rule. One way WILL BE BETTER than the other, and we should argue about it till we know which it is, rather than putting it to a vote.

We need to be cautious of team politics too. My preference may be affected because I know Fluro better than BLubmuz! I know that it shouldn't be a factor, but it's nearly impossible to completely rid myself of human nature and think like the borg.

That's another reason to strive for consensus rather than voting.

 

[Fluroscent]

OK, so I am going to change my mind yet again (hooray for extensive testing). Just managed T72 Academy/T73 Oracle, with wheel before writing. Turns out wheel first is indeed good, but we have to change some early worker actions to make it better than writing first.

after the worker - WB - worker, build WB - warrior - Lib - worker - settler

The 3rd worker is still a waste. We delay academy/oracle for improvements we cannot yet use anyway.

Now, I am going to rundown the early worker moves in detail, since some might be a bit counter-intuitive. But we save just enough turns to make it work, by doing this.

First worker moves to SE cows, scrubs, pastures, but does NOT road. Immediately moves to W cows, scrubs, pastures (with help from worker 2)

After both cows are improved (beware, the governor wants to work cows over fish - bad idea), one roads, one moves to SW gold. The cow road finishes on growth to size 3, and this is the prime benefit of wheel first, the other worker is allowed to finish roading the gold before the first needs to move onto it.
Then both scrub and mine the gold, which is then ready for size 5.

The whole point is that we avoid spending time roading where we need no roads yet. That means only one cow and one gold get roads.

From the SW gold, both workers move to the W gold (yes without road, it is better to get the first gold online) and scrub/mine. It will not finish in time for size 6, so we are stuck with a forest until the library finishes, where we assign a scientist until the gold is mined.

Once mined, the first worker moves directly to the PH 1N of StP. The other (moving a turn later from the gold) goes to the grass square 2S of Moscow. Both then start roads the same turn, and that road finishes just in time for the settler to move to the StP site in 1T.

Both workers then scrub the grass square to gain a health point in Moscow, then work on StP's BFC. With some MM in Moscow, we will be able to finish Academy/Oracle as demonstrated. Well, we might even squeeze a bit more out of it, since I had a bit excess food and ran out of stocked gold a few turns too early.

So, unless someone protests, I think we can go with this approach.

 

[Fluroscent]

Also, I'd like for us to come to a consensus, rather than having majority rule. One way WILL BE BETTER than the other, and we should argue about it till we know which it is, rather than putting it to a vote.

We need to be cautious of team politics too. My preference may be affected because I know Fluro better than BLubmuz! I know that it shouldn't be a factor, but it's nearly impossible to completely rid myself of human nature and think like the borg.

That's another reason to strive for consensus rather than voting.

Agree 110%

 

[BLubmuz]

I've set up a vote to move the discussion, since it seems a bit stagnating.
Not great success

Nice to see your change, Fluro.
There's one wrong point: we need the roads in both hills:
- 2W to move and connect W
- SW to move and connect StPete

So, if both workers road the cows, then split to road one gold each, then stack to scrub/mine the west is far better.
Since you probably used my last test game to test (ehm), you're forced to build a warrior before the library, to avoid citizens.
If you build WB-warrior-Library, you build the library using the mine, using at best the hammers from our Creative trait. Also, you probably can set research to 0 for only 2 turns right before the library completes.

Workers
In this scenario workers are not only to improve the land, but firstly to clean fallout. I don't care if a city does not work an improvement (just avoit to build it), but i care the clean land. This can help to speed the GS from Moscow, just to say one benefit.
Also, chop the forests before to clean the fallout near StPete can be a mistake, due to unheathiness. We must consider those unusual aspects in this game.

Before the Oracle completes we need to explore the cow/lake area to see if there's a good site for city #3. We can't use the warrior as i did in my early tests, not only for the happiness problems, but also for safety. A chariot can deal with anything is not a spear and, who knows, there can be some non-fallout tile.

After scrubbed all the tiles in Moscow BFC but one and 2-3 near StPete, we must send a worker ro road the desert, then to scrub between the lake and the cows, provided that is a good site.

In this game we can build a settler in 3 turns, but we need 6 to scrub. And if the path is not roaded, the settler will take forever to arrive.
I would have prefer Peter, maybe.

 

[Fluroscent]

I think you are missing the point, and somehow accuse my plan of something not really a problem .

There's one wrong point: we need the roads in both hills:

No we don't. Roading the 2W hill is a waste of worker turns. True, we lose 1T moving both workers there, but we made up that turn by not roading the first cows, and we gain the 2WT from not roading it. And moving away from it costs nothing, since we move to cows-gold-fallout, regardless of road or not. Try it out.

Since you probably used my last test game to test (ehm), you're forced to build a warrior before the library, to avoid citizens.

Yes obviously, also since with wheel first, we don't have writing yet then.

If you build WB-warrior-Library, you build the library using the mine, using at best the hammers from our Creative trait. Also, you probably can set research to 0 for only 2 turns right before the library completes.

Which is exactly what I did, only I worked the improved mine directly, rather than some turns with a non-improved tile.
Note: we might want to store 1 turn of gold before working the mine too, to gather some ~10 gold more which would be just enough to see us through CoL-Math at 100%.

In this scenario workers are not only to improve the land, but firstly to clean fallout.

If you are talking about completing the end of game goal, then whatever other concerns we have take priority. Early hammers >>> later hammers.

This can help to speed the GS from Moscow, just to say one benefit.

Yes, by clearing the grass tile sooner, but it comes out behind, due to not growing while building the worker. And we slow down StP too, which can be used to...

Before the Oracle completes we need to explore the cow/lake area to see if there's a good site for city #3

Build a chariot or two for scouting in StP. BTW, why exactly is it that we NEED to explore BEFORE Oracle? Sorry for the tone, but it would help if we stick to factual statements rather than unfounded postulates. As I see it, we can cover all the concerns you (and others raise) with StP's production. It was ~65 on T73 IIRC in that latest test. That is enough for two chariots. It could easily build a worker afterwards, as could Moscow.

After scrubbed all the tiles in Moscow BFC but one and 2-3 near StPete, we must send a worker ro road the desert, then to scrub between the lake and the cows, provided that is a good site.

Yes, except we do not need to scrub the PH in Moscow BFC yet, and only the squares in StP we are going to work immediately. The details will be easier to judge later, but suffice to say, we are not exactly behind on worker turns, so we should be able to road and scrub for a new city without too much trouble.

In this game we can build a settler in 3 turns, but we need 6 to scrub. And if the path is not roaded, the settler will take forever to arrive.

Of course, but then we just build a worker first. After Bureau is up, nothing takes long to build.

I would have prefer Peter, maybe.

Of course Who wouldn't want to be EXP?

Let us talk a bit more about the immediate aftermath of Oracle:

We should get agriculture first, to hook rice, and BW to chop and find copper, and pottery for granaries and cottages. Then probably sailing and masonry (if we still want to try for GLH), then Monotheism? Maybe monarchy to grow Moscow to work all its non-ocean tiles?

Moscow can either stagnate at size 6 and pump some workers+settlers, or build the religious buildings and grow to size 8. Something like worker-settler-settler-temple-lighthouse looks decent to me. Another worker if needed anytime.
StP, well, start with a chariot, and then a worker at size2, then more chariots/axes and another worker at size 3. This seems to be what we need most at the time. If there is unexpected early contact, then barracks->military full time might be needed.

Now, at some point, we will see AI stacks come for us. I don't think it will happen any time soon, but we do need to take precautions.
The way to play AW is to focus on vertical growth and gaining a tech advantage. We cannot afford to fight axes vs axes for 1000 years against multiple opponents.
We need a "kill zone" where we can absorb attacks from a forested hilltop or something, and attack units that try to sneak by to pillage on flatlands. Highly promoted units will let us fight with superior odds consistently if we play it right. Fallout might be our friend here, not allowing mounted units to zip by our perimeter.
Then in the long run we need a powerful HE city with enough settled generals to produce CR3 siege (trebs/cannons, depending on how it plays out), which will allow us to steamroll the AI.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think you are missing the point, and somehow accuse my plan of something not really a problem .

No we don't. Roading the 2W hill is a waste of worker turns. True, we lose 1T moving both workers there, but we made up that turn by not roading the first cows, and we gain the 2WT from not roading it. And moving away from it costs nothing, since we move to cows-gold-fallout, regardless of road or not. Try it out.

I did and you're wrong if i can be frank .
1) by moving the 2 workers on that hill, you lose 1 WT to save 2 to build the road. Net income 1 WT. But we need that road right after the Oracle, to move W. So, you lose WTs again. Net income by turn 80: 0 WT gained.
2) i agree to not road the SE cows. We'll never return on that tile.
3) we need the road on the SW gold to connect StPete, since we have not roaded the SE cows
Also, please don't clean the GL. We need more the hill than that, since we'll mine it ASAP, i mean possibly before the Oracle.

Which is exactly what I did, only I worked the improved mine directly, rather than some turns with a non-improved tile.
Note: we might want to store 1 turn of gold before working the mine too, to gather some ~10 gold more which would be just enough to see us through CoL-Math at 100%.

I never worked unimproved tiles.
Good idea to set 0 before gold is mined.

If you are talking about completing the end of game goal, then whatever other concerns we have take priority. Early hammers >>> later hammers.

Not a breath on it!
But it's not what i meant. In fact i don't care for now to clean everything, just to road to arrive there soon later an clean what we use, or what causes unhealth.

(...)

For the rest, not many objections. Just, StPete can produce 65H, but it needs a warrior for MP. But this can wait and start with chariot first.

And, when they start coming, we probably have Xbows and maces. Xbows are great in the open, supported by a mounted or a spear.

 

[Fluroscent]

1) by moving the 2 workers on that hill, you lose 1 WT to save 2 to build the road. Net income 1 WT. But we need that road right after the Oracle, to move W. So, you lose WTs again. Net income by turn 80: 0 WT gained.

But my main concern is getting bureau and academy. I think that the post-oracle concerns take a lower priority. And mining the gold quicker helps us get there faster.

But it's not what i meant. In fact i don't care for now to clean everything, just to road to arrive there soon later an clean what we use, or what causes unhealth.

It will happen automatically when we improve the land, and StP has no immediate health concerns.

Also, please don't clean the GL. We need more the hill than that, since we'll mine it ASAP, i mean possibly before the Oracle.

But it is faster to clean the GL... And if not, we will delay the academy since we have to produce more food. Again, let us not get caught up in post-Oracle stuff! Getting the Oracle sooner IS better.

I never worked unimproved tiles.

I don't see how, I grow to size 5 as fast as humanly possible, and only get the mine up exactly the turn I grow to 5. But I will try to test one more time to see if I can make it work your way.

 

[Fluroscent]

OK I tested (again). Doing it the way you did, both roading cow, then roading both gold, we work an unmined gold hill 1 turn at size 5, costing 16, and settle StP 1 turn later due to the road not being ready, slowing everything from there. And we clean the GL a turn later too, costing food, slowing academy.

By the way, we do not have to road the 2W gold at all (well, not until railroad), since we can road the forest below instead, which is a square we will want to go to anyway.