SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

As i already said, even gifting to G. an expensive tech like CoL we'll stay his worst enemy, until someone declares on him. So, no point in this strategy.

To have Alpha to trade for peace with other AIs can be a solution, but possibly after we wiped a stack. You know well that the AI is more willing to accept peace after you proved your military strenght.

Use the missionary to scout is a good idea.

Sure we want a stable? i never built one in my games. If we wage wars we'll arrive soon to our 2nd GG (assuming the first will go to a chariot) and the stable will be pretty useless with a GG settled.

About active players: enter in the game now is an usual thing if you play in a large team.
I think i have played some 3 TSs in each game, no more.
If you have RL problems or low interest it's another matter.
I remember that Orb said he was out until the 15 or so, PNP is busy, so if Cas won't play, the only chance is start the 2nd round. This will be a long game and time can be a problem.
I will reschedule to see what we need.
 
@cas. Take a look at the save, I am sure you can figure it out. We are probably still going to be debating what to do next anyway, so it's not like we need to play right away.
We ARE one of the most progressed teams, so we should not feel pressured into premature turnsets.

BLubmuz said:
As i already said, even gifting to G. an expensive tech like CoL we'll stay his worst enemy, until someone declares on him. So, no point in this strategy.
He made Mao the worst enemy when I fiddled with it in the testgame when he became cautious with us. But there he was of course annoyed with Mao, whereas he is cautious in the real game. He also does not have to have a worst enemy at all. But still, I'll accept alphabet self researched, but I really think we should make peace with the rest asap.

BLubmuz said:
You know well that the AI is more willing to accept peace after you proved your military strenght.
No, it only affects the price (since they are willing to talk). All the AI should (maybe not Stalin, but that hardly matters) be easily bribed with our current techs. The problem with "wiping a stack" is that we cannot do it guaranteed cost efficiently. We sure cannot wait for them to attack, since they might not and rather mess up our improvements, which would be BAD. And if we are to attack them, then we will not get better than 50% odds with anything. Plus the fact we will need to build more units that are not cats or phants all adds up to a slower invasion of France.

BLubmuz said:
Sure we want a stable? i never built one in my games. If we wage wars we'll arrive soon to our 2nd GG (assuming the first will go to a chariot) and the stable will be pretty useless with a GG settled.
Surely we do. 5XP phants are way better than 3XP phants out of the gate (which will be how our France war will be fought). And it allows us to make a medic chariot too. And it makes the path to HEpic shorter for our lead phant (although I imagine a GG medic will take care of that).
We also want to settle our GGs in a dedicated military production city that will build siege, and not mounted (Definitely not Moscow). And the first is definitely best used for a GG medic.
 
If needed, I can play the next TS. It will be Monday before I can really look and run much in the way of testing.

One thing I do want to say is that I ran some test games and in them, I was able to get OB and trades with G around about this time of the game. I don't remember the specifics but someone else (I want to say Mao but can't be sure) became his WE. I was also able to use techs to get peace with everyone else.

If I play next, that is the route I would like to go. Get peace around the board. Research Const and build a few phants and then DoW DeGuille and stomp him.
 
Do we have a current save for the test game?
 
Hey guys, we're looking strong in the SGOTM Progress Chart, in terms of score at least. Though there are teams that are crazy enough to upload save games at funny times to produce misleading charts.

I'm fine with whoever plays next.

Gandhi: If we get Sailing, can we get to gift our surplus gold resource to Gandhi? Or do we actually have to have a visible path to his city? Also, for those of you who have played test games, is Pottery considered a decent enough gift to get fair trade bonuses?

Remember that if we revolt to Confucianism, it'll be harder to make friends with Gandhi. It might be best to build the Temple and Monastery but not revolting.

Missionary scouting is a good idea since there are no barbs. Just don't get eaten by wandering AI units.

Stable is a strong build - having units come out the door with 5XP makes a big difference in victory and survivability.

I think we can probably stay at war with De Gaulle. This saves us a "-1 you declared war on us" and "you declared war on our friend". Also, we have decent tactical advance warning by constantly reopening the AI diplo screen ... that told us in advance about England's Spearmen. De Gaulle only has archers so far, and I'm not scared of an archer stack. (Actually, I did see 1 archer wandering around De Gaulle's lands. It declined to attack our Chariot when it had the chance).
 
Pretty quiet weekend for 5E/WD :)

Just a note to unclethrill: I saved right at the beginning of the turn, so pretty much every unit still has moves left. The one to especially watch out for is the Chariot next to England's mini stack. Don't get it killed or else we'll lose the ability to watch the stack ...
 
OK, so Unclethrill is UP.
I updated page 1, included a new schedule. Please take a look. Remember that it's just for reference, surely not mandatory.
We're on time, for now, but we need to not let the grass grow under our feet.

The research path is already decided IIRC:
Masonry-construction-HBR. Even some HA is not bad.

I think that the main task for UT is to try to make peace with anyone but deGaulle and Stalin and to try to setup good relations with G. Do not trade CoL, if not to G. for Alpha.

UT, can you please post a PPP? I know you're testing. I already set turn 100 on page 1, is OK for anyone?
 
Okay, I'll work on a PPP tonight.

So just for clarification: "Do not trade CoL, if not to G. for Alpha."

Does this mean that I should not trade CoL to anyone unless G is willing to make a trade that includes Alphabet? In which case, I can trade CoL to G and get Alphabet and maybe something else.

Is this correct?
 
I think what BLubmuz meant was "don't trade away CoL, unless you can get Gandhi's Alphabet with it". However, I think that would be very difficult and costly for us. We actually need to gift something to Gandhi so we are no longer his worst enemy, and only then can we trade for his Alphabet. The only things that Gandhi could accept for Alphabet are CS or CoL ... too costly, in my opinion.

I suggest just teching Alphabet ourselves and not gifting anything to Gandhi at all. Maybe pausing after Alphabet when the global tech situation becomes visible? Suggested tech path: Alphabet, Masonry, Construction, HBR.

By the way, if we can't get peace with England, I would suggest going HBR before Construction. This way we can field Horse Archers, which are better for defending against a mini stack than Axes/Catapults.
 
I think what BLubmuz meant was "don't trade away CoL, unless you can get Gandhi's Alphabet with it". However, I think that would be very difficult and costly for us. We actually need to gift something to Gandhi so we are no longer his worst enemy, and only then can we trade for his Alphabet. The only things that Gandhi could accept for Alphabet are CS or CoL ... too costly, in my opinion.

I suggest just teching Alphabet ourselves and not gifting anything to Gandhi at all. Maybe pausing after Alphabet when the global tech situation becomes visible? Suggested tech path: Alphabet, Masonry, Construction, HBR.

By the way, if we can't get peace with England, I would suggest going HBR before Construction. This way we can field Horse Archers, which are better for defending against a mini stack than Axes/Catapults.
Yes, it's what i meant.
Before we arrive to Alpha-HBR and build an HA, the ministack will arrive to our borders.
And the HA is only slightly better than a chariot against a Spear.
If we can field 6 axes, they will make mincemeat of the stack.
If G. accepts CoL for Alpha and maybe a minor tech, or we can give him a minor tech to improve relations, it's done.

If we make peace with anyone but dG and Stalin, or with anyone sending a stack to us, we can consider to settle near the stone. Pyramids are always useful!
 
BLubmuz said:
The research path is already decided IIRC:
Masonry-construction-HBR. Even some HA is not bad.
No, my suggestion is Alpha-Masonry-Construction-HBR

If we tech alpha, we make peace with Churchill before we fight the stack, that is the point. And 6 axes are a major slowdown, since we need other builds in Moscow, and we would quite likely sustain two losses vs the stack anyway, because as I said earlier, there is no way to get above 50% attacking the stack.

So we can do the above suggested path, and NOT sacrifice our elepult plan other than the beakers for alpha.

And no HA's, they have no purpose.

The alternative was to gift techs to Gandhi to make him lose the worst enemy status on us, and then trade for alpha. This was deemed too expensive, so we seem to prefer researching alpha ourselves. I somewhat agree, although I am of the philosophy that advancing the AI tech rate is not all bad. But since we are probably looking at mostly a single large (although stretched) landmass, we probably gain from holding back a bit on the gifts.

What BLubmuz is suggesting is to stick to the maso-constr-HBR, which will make warfare very difficult since we need to partly sacrifice Moscow's development and worker turns, sustain losses by building non-superior units, and deal with the several stacks that are likely to arrive before the France war would be over.
I am obviously heavily against this. We NEED alpha so we can get to focus on France, and build the units (phants and cats) we need.

BLubmuz said:
If we make peace with anyone but dG and Stalin, or with anyone sending a stack to us, we can consider to settle near the stone. Pyramids are always useful!
Since we are going for war at this stage, the next thing we need to worry about is Oxford, which makes stone attractive, but getting the six universities is more pressing. I'd want to settle it so it connects in time for Oxford but probably not sooner. Pyramids are probably not worth going for at this stage, particularly since the land/leader is not particularly suited to a specialist heavy plan, and it is quite late to start if we want to feel comfortable in getting it before the AI.
 
Here is my PPP.

I ran a couple tests and I think the benefits of researching Alpha far out weigh the waiting on a chance that G will trade it to us.

Okay here it is:

PPP


Research

Alpha (6) ->Masonry (1) -> Construction (7) -> HBR (5)

Worker builds

Wake all workers!

Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to phants SW of CI. Clean FO, camp and road.
Workers 1 & 4 to PH SE of Moscow (1N of Rice). Clean FO, mine.

Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to phants W of CI. Clean FO, camp and road.
Workers 1 & 4 to 1W GL. Cottage.

Workers 1 & 4 begin road to DeGuille if it can be done safely. As indicated by numbered path.
Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to NW of CI. Clean FO and road.

Cities

Moscow
Finish Axe -> Market ->Confused Monastary ->Spear -> Cat

StP
Finish Barracks -> Granary -> Cat

CI

Finish Granary -> Cat


Diplomacy

Get OB with G if possible.

Get peace with All except DeGuille and Stalin.
Don't trade CoL ever. Never, Ever, Ever!
Other techs are open for trade if the opportunity arises.


I can play tomorrow night if we can get some approval on the PPP.
 
Hey UT, good PPP. Since I had the game last I can throw in some comments.

Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to phants SW of CI. Clean FO, camp and road.
Workers 1 & 4 to PH SE of Moscow (1N of Rice). Clean FO, mine.

I would suggest finishing the chop for the worker that's sitting on the riverside forest, then building a cottage on that hex (er, tile :) ). Is the Pasture for the Cow finished? I forget even though I was the last one to play.

Workers 1 & 4 begin road to DeGuille if it can be done safely. As indicated by numbered path.

Sorry about spamming so many signs on the map - please feel free to delete them if they're too visually offensive! By the way, the main reason I put down the numbered path was to indicate how much time we have until English mini-stack reaches us, if it beelines. Looks like it's not beelining, as long as the Chariot keeps it distracted.

Moscow
Finish Axe -> Axe -> Chariot -> Confused Monastary -> Cat -> Cat -> Phant

Temple would be useful for lifting the happy cap. I like Fluro's Stable plan as it allows us to be more efficient with our units - we can save hammers by building fewer, highly-promoted units rather than tons of mediocre elephants/cats.

Get OB with G if possible.
Trade for Alpha.

Unfortunately, Gandhi won't trade anything while we're his worst enemy ... and I don't see an easy way of getting out of that, since our -5 diplo is from permanent modifiers. Can't get Open Borders while we're his worst enemy, can't adopt his religion until it gets to us ... can only gift techs and maybe resources. The only thing I might see is gifting a bunch of weak techs and then trading Construction or CoL for Alpha.



Can we do a pause after Alphabet so we can look at the tech situation? There's probably some micro opportunity with trading around our techs.
 
Hey UT, I am sorry but I have to disagree with most of the suggested PPP :(. Will comment in red.

unclethrill said:
Here is my PPP.

I think that we can get Alpha from G with a minimal amount of effort. Probably about halfway through the TS. This would allow use to almost finish IW too during this TS allowing us to locate any iron in addition to masonry, HBR and Const with Alpha as the added touch from G.
This minimal effort requires that we can get him to drop seeing us as our worst enemy, which Tests suggest will cost us at least an expensive tech like CoL

Okay here it is:

PPP


Research

Masonry (1) -> Construction (7) -> HBR (5) -> IW (4)
I did my take on it in the previous post, but I must add that IW is wasted beakers almost entirely. It will be easily tradable later, and we do not need anything that requires iron for a while.

Worker builds

Wake all workers!

Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to phants SW of CI. Clean FO, camp and road. Surely we want to finish the pasture first, and the worker on the forest should CHOP first, possibly COTTAGE directly
Workers 1 & 4 to PH SE of Moscow (1N of Rice). Clean FO, mine. Could do this, but I'd rather move them to the grass fallout 1N of silk, and FARM it, since, as I said in an earlier post, that will allow StP to grow to size 6 and work all its mines. And Moscow will want to work cottages over a PHMine (effectiveness with Bureau)

Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to phants W of CI. Clean FO, camp and road.
Workers 1 & 4 to 1W GL. Cottage. Why would we cottage the non-river grass tile first?

Workers 1 & 4 begin road to DeGuille if it can be done safely. As indicated by numbered path.
Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to NW of CI. Clean FO and road. Why?

I'd like some reasoning on the worker moves, do we for instance need to have three workers on the ivory in order to hook it in time for Moscow growth? (also depends on Moscow build)

Cities

Moscow
Finish Axe -> Axe -> Chariot -> Confused Monastary -> Cat -> Cat -> Phant
I am suspecting that you either did not read the preceding discussion carefully, or you missed some posts. This build is terrible (sorry). We do not need more axes from here if we make peace (again, previous post). Why on earth a chariot?

Here is my suggestion:
Moscow
Finish Axe-Worker (We NEED more workers)-Granary (because it is needed for health when we chop, and to grow to size 8 asap)-Confu temple+Monastary (needed for science and happiness, the order will depend on when we are growing to size 8)-Stable (needed before we start building phants)-Chariot (now, with 5XP to unlock MEDIC)-Phants.


StP
Finish Barracks -> Granary -> Cat
Might as well start the Granary immediately, since a barracks does nothing before building units! Also, we may not have construction in time for cats, if we do the alpha first thing, so we can build an axe (stack defense) and/or a workboat (scout) first.

CI

Finish Granary -> Phant
One city (Moscow) to build phants, so we don't need more stables. And we need barracks too.
So, Granary-Barracks-Catapults here.

Another note: Moscow should reclaim the fish once the cows at CI are pastured. And keep them until size 8, and a related detail, Moscow should highlight the forest shared with StP, so when it is chopped, the hammers are multiplied by bureaucracy

Diplomacy

Get OB with G if possible. Need to lose worst enemy status (like tech trading)
Trade for Alpha. Deemed too expensive, and still needs to lose worst enemy status
Get peace with All except DeGuille and Stalin. Yes, as CHEAP as possible. They will ask for a city, so offer as little tech as possible, then progressively more until they accept.
Don't trade CoL ever. Never, Ever, Ever!
Other techs are open for trade if the opportunity arises. Don't trade ANYTHING without consulting team first


I can play tomorrow night if we can get some approval on the PPP.
Needs more work, and some team consensus (particularly on tech path) before proceeding

Edit: after looking at the save a bit, I think we need TWO more workers from Moscow, so we should add another right after the first, and the forest worker should chop first to get them out faster.
 
Here is my PPP.

I ran a couple tests and I think the benefits of researching Alpha far out weigh the waiting on a chance that G will trade it to us.

Okay here it is:

PPP


Research

Alpha (6) ->Masonry (1) -> Construction (7) -> HBR (5)

Worker builds

Wake all workers!

Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to phants SW of CI. Clean FO, camp and road.
Workers 1 & 4 to PH SE of Moscow (1N of Rice). Clean FO, mine.

Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to phants W of CI. Clean FO, camp and road.
Workers 1 & 4 to 1W GL. Cottage.

Workers 1 & 4 begin road to DeGuille if it can be done safely. As indicated by numbered path.
Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to NW of CI. Clean FO and road.

Cities

Moscow
Finish Axe -> Market ->Confused Monastary ->Spear -> Cat

StP
Finish Barracks -> Granary -> Cat

CI

Finish Granary -> Cat


Diplomacy

Get OB with G if possible.

Get peace with All except DeGuille and Stalin.
Don't trade CoL ever. Never, Ever, Ever!
Other techs are open for trade if the opportunity arises.


I can play tomorrow night if we can get some approval on the PPP.

Hey UT, good PPP. Since I had the game last I can throw in some comments.



I would suggest finishing the chop for the worker that's sitting on the riverside forest, then building a cottage on that hex (er, tile :) ). Is the Pasture for the Cow finished? I forget even though I was the last one to play.



Sorry about spamming so many signs on the map - please feel free to delete them if they're too visually offensive! By the way, the main reason I put down the numbered path was to indicate how much time we have until English mini-stack reaches us, if it beelines. Looks like it's not beelining, as long as the Chariot keeps it distracted.



Temple would be useful for lifting the happy cap. I like Fluro's Stable plan as it allows us to be more efficient with our units - we can save hammers by building fewer, highly-promoted units rather than tons of mediocre elephants/cats.



Unfortunately, Gandhi won't trade anything while we're his worst enemy ... and I don't see an easy way of getting out of that, since our -5 diplo is from permanent modifiers. Can't get Open Borders while we're his worst enemy, can't adopt his religion until it gets to us ... can only gift techs and maybe resources. The only thing I might see is gifting a bunch of weak techs and then trading Construction or CoL for Alpha.



Can we do a pause after Alphabet so we can look at the tech situation? There's probably some micro opportunity with trading around our techs.

Hey UT, I am sorry but I have to disagree with most of the suggested PPP :(. Will comment in red.



Edit: after looking at the save a bit, I think we need TWO more workers from Moscow, so we should add another right after the first, and the forest worker should chop first to get them out faster.

Okay there was a cross post on my edit. So how about a new critique of my PPP. I'm headed to bed now but I will look at the new suggestions and then modify my edited PPP accordingly.
 
unclethrill said:
Okay there was a cross post on my edit. So how about a new critique of my PPP. I'm headed to bed now but I will look at the new suggestions and then modify my edited PPP accordingly.
OK, will do. My comments in quotes in red

Tech path good now, but remember to use binary research. One turn of 0% to build gold when we run out, then 100%.

Worker builds

Wake all workers! Except the ones building pasture

Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to phants SW of CI. Clean FO, camp and road. Worker on forest should chop->cottage
Workers 1 & 4 to PH SE of Moscow (1N of Rice). Clean FO, mine. I'd rather farm the grass tile N of silk, since it will allow StP to grow on to all its mines. Moscow does not want to work a PH mine over, say, cottages, since we want the maximum from our BUR/academy combo

Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to phants W of CI. Clean FO, camp and road. Keep the worker at Moscow there, and send one of the newly built (if people will agree that we need to build more) instead
Workers 1 & 4 to 1W GL. Cottage. Those workers need to stay at StP and build mines (after the farm). We do not want to cottage the non-riverside grass first

Workers 1 & 4 begin road to DeGuille if it can be done safely. As indicated by numbered path. More than one worker on the road will waste a massive amount of workerturns. I think we should send just one of the ivory workers when the first ivory is hooked to start. We can re-evaluate for next set, but city improvements take priority now
Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to NW of CI. Clean FO and road. Why? We need to clear the tiles we are going to work first, which is the mines.

Worker moves are correlated with builds of course. What is important is that we avoid working unimproved tiles if possible. And that we grow as fast as possible to the caps.

unclethrill said:
Cities

Moscow
Finish Axe -> Market why? ->Confused Monastary ->Spear why? -> Cat cats can be built in the other cities, we want stable->phants here
We also need to accommodate growth, and build more workers, so my suggestion:
Finish Axe -> Worker ->Worker ->Granary -> Temple/Monastary (order depending on how fast we grow) -> Stable-> Chariot (5XP now for MEDIC) -> Phants


StP
Finish Barracks -> Granary -> Cat
Since Barracks does nothing until building units, we should switch to granary immediately.
Granary -> resume barracks -> Catapults
However, we might not have construction in time, so we might want to build an Axe (stack defense), and/or a Workboat (scout) before cats.


CI

Finish Granary -> Cat
We need barracks before building cats, so:
Finish Granary -> Barracks -> Cats
Let us remain focused on the cities tasks. We want a stable in one city only to save hammers, so that city should build the phants. Only Moscow has enough production to handle this, so it gets the honor.
But Moscow is also our bureau capital, so it needs to grow and work cottages. So we need granary and temple, and monastary for science, but market is too expensive for what it does right now, especially since we only need a few turns here and there at 100%:gold:.
And we need to build the cottages without sacrificing development in the other cities, so we need more workers. So don't waste time in moscow to build more inferior troops!
We will not need to build a single spearman in this game, since we can build elephants.

The other cities need to be developed for hammers in the short term, and can combined build the catapults we need. They only need granary and barracks, but they DO need those buildings.

Diplomacy

Get OB with G if possible. If he loses the worst enemy status, he will sign OB

Get peace with All except DeGuille and Stalin. Make sure we offer the MINIMUM they will accept. If we ask for peace, they will ask for a city... So offer the least expensive techs first, then progressively more until they accept.
Don't trade CoL ever. Never, Ever, Ever!
Other techs are open for trade if the opportunity arises. Don't trade anything not discussed without consulting team. Not that anything is likely to be tradable for this set

Other things for the set that you didn't mention in your PPP:

-The confu missionary sitting in Moscow to go scout along the north coast. The reasoning is that we are unlikely to run into French units there, so it should be safe.

-The northern chariot to continue westward exploration. We want to know if there are any AI on this path, or possibly a different route to France. The missionary can "backfill" exploration so we can plan city sites.

-The southern chariot to avoid getting killed by Churchills stack, and then go take a better look at DeGaulles land once we get peace with Churchill.

-The new axe in Moscow should probably make sure the roaming DeGaulle archer does not cause trouble, and otherwise MP Cote d'Ivoire.

-Pausing at alphabet is probably a good idea, so we can catch up on tech status. We might be able to sell some low-end techs for gold.

-And as always, stop and consult if something unexpected happens.
 
I'll examine the PPP later in detail, some suggestions for now:
For the Ivory, we surely want to hook both, so the best thing is send a worker to build a road and only after the road is built, stack them. Otherwise we lose 2 or more worker turns, more than we need to build the road.

Chops
It's surely correct to highlight the tile of Moscow if we chop near it.
But we must remember to get the most out of the chops, so settler or libraries will be chopped. If we don't need the settler, we can switch the turn the chop is done, then go back to the previous build.

Sooner or later the settler will be used, so better make it cheaper.
Same thing for StPete: it will need a library, not for commerce but for the Uni.

Tech Trades
What if G. accepts CoL for Alpha?
I suggest to run some test to see if it can work in time to make peace before the English stack arrives to our borders. In any case, the path to phants is not short and we need some axe for stack protection and for MP. So better build some.

And don't forget the GG. Winning some fight can be a good thing.
 
Yeah, I agree with Fluro's comments above. Markets won't be too useful since we are running high slider most of the time (and relatively little commerce).

Just to reiterate, I would use the SW chariot to lure the mini-stack in circles until we can get peace. If possible, don't let the stack catch sight of our lands.

Does the tile-highlighting thing works even if the forest is closer to Moscow than St. Pete?
 
Does it really matter if we chop into a settler/library vs. something else? Math below
Spoiler :
For example, let's say we want to build a settler for 100 hammers and a granary for 60, and a forest is worth 30 hammers. Ignore overflow.

1) chop 1 forest into settler

30 hammer chop + 50% bureau bonus + 50% IMP settler bonus = 60 hammers
then finish settler by slowbuilding 20 hammers + 50% bureau bonus + 50% IMP bonus = 40 hammers

then slowbuild granary 40 hammers + 50% bureau bonus = 60 hammers

Total: 1 chop, 60 slowbuild hammers

2) chop into granary

We slowbuild the settler (50 hammers + 50% bureau bonus + 50% IMP bonus = 100 hammers)

Then chop once into the granary (30 hammers chop + 50% bureau = 45 hammers) then slowbuild the remainder: 10 hammers + 50% bureau = 15 hammers, total 60.

Total 1 chop, 60 slowbuild hammers.

If I've done the math right, it seems to be the exact same result whether we chop into the settler/library or something else.
 
Does it really matter if we chop into a settler/library vs. something else? Math below
Spoiler :
For example, let's say we want to build a settler for 100 hammers and a granary for 60, and a forest is worth 30 hammers. Ignore overflow.

1) chop 1 forest into settler

30 hammer chop + 50% bureau bonus + 50% IMP settler bonus = 60 hammers
then finish settler by slowbuilding 20 hammers + 50% bureau bonus + 50% IMP bonus = 40 hammers

then slowbuild granary 40 hammers + 50% bureau bonus = 60 hammers

Total: 1 chop, 60 slowbuild hammers

2) chop into granary

We slowbuild the settler (50 hammers + 50% bureau bonus + 50% IMP bonus = 100 hammers)

Then chop once into the granary (30 hammers chop + 50% bureau = 45 hammers) then slowbuild the remainder: 10 hammers + 50% bureau = 15 hammers, total 60.

Total 1 chop, 60 slowbuild hammers.

If I've done the math right, it seems to be the exact same result whether we chop into the settler/library or something else.
But you don't :eek: :(

30 hammers from chopping and +50% bureau bonus are constants.
So we get always 45H from chopping in Moscow.
But if we're producing a settler we gain 15 more and for any "creative" building we gain 30 more (+100% bonus).
Chopping a library in StPete is like chopping a settler in Moscow.
Chopping anything else is just a chop.

I also remember that in the last patch they corrected the overflow between bonus/normal, can't remember exactly how it works.
 
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