SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

I got the save open, so to our convenience, this is what i can see;
- we have contact with all the AIs
- we're at war with all of them and they show -3 for declaring war and -2 for nuked them and the obvious -3 for "this war spoils..."
- they have no contact between themselves
- we have Ecology added to hunting and mining
- Gandhi has Alpha, since i can see the techs he can research
- Stalin has the MP in Stalingrad
- Stalin (Old Russia), Mao and Churchill have 74 points
- Roosevelt and DeGaulle 68
- Gandhi 56
- Poor Russian FE 47

Comments:
- Many of the above was expected, but it can be useful to have them collected here
- I suspected the MP, but it's confirmed
- it would be interesting to see the relations between them, once they meet. In any case, Stalin is not a war with anyone: to be at war, you must have contact.
- our score is so low because we have no population nor land
- the difference in score between the AIs are techs
- probably Gandhi has only Alpha, but 12 points for Roos and dG mean 3 techs, while 6 more for Stalin, Mao and Chur mean 4 techs
- let's see how many points we'll have once settled Moscow. Yes, Moscow, since the name it's not used.

Initial builds:
If you missed it, i'm all for warrior/WB first. I need to test more to be sure.
Fishing - AH - Wheel can be the early research?

Edit:
Ecology:
- AndPrerequisites: Biology
- OrPrerequisites: Plastics or Fission
This means that Biology is mandatory, plus one between Plastics and Fission: knowing both will cause a discount in research.
This also means that we'll not be able to give that tech to the AI.

AI techs:
Emperor AI start with Hunting and Archery added to the techs tied to the Civ.
Thus, Stalin has -6 points due to having Hunting as a Civ-related tech

more info, gained toying with WB:
All the AIs start with 44 points, but Stalin which has 38 (due the one less tech)

- FE jump from 11 to 47 thanks to Ecology
- Gandhi from 44 to 56 thanks to Alpha

Now, i must try to figure which techs the other AIs get, using the score as a reference, but it's all but sure i can guess it right.
Now: techs for era have different score, increasing by 6 points any era
Ancient +6
Classical +12
Medieval +18
Renaissance +24
Industrial +30
Modern +36
Future +42

A reasoning can be that:
- Stalin has a Modern era tech, like Ecology (38+36=74)
he can be isolated, since probably he's got some negative diplo like "you nuked us" and he will be hated by the other AIs
- Mao and Churchill have an Industrial era tech (44+30=74)
- Roosevelt and DeGaulle can have a Renaissance tech (44+24=68)
I doubt Erkon gave them military techs like Feudalism or Rifling, or it's game over when we meet them.
I also doubt they have many mixed Ancient or Classical Era techs.
I doubt they have Astro or SM or Optics, for different reasons.

I'd like to listen to your opinions before goin' ahead with the WB: it's a guess, but 8 heads are better than 1.
Some hint can be given reading the 2nd tab of F9 (Demographics, Soldiers).
We have 4k, the worst 8k. One has 230k, the average is 47.333, which means (just one possibility) that the remaining 4 AIs are around <20k each.
Just to try (and quit without saving), giving an AI MS, makes it reach the correct score and jump to 22k in power.

 

[orb]

Just to chip in here.

In terms of the vic conditions. - Clearing worldwide fallout is the hardest things for us to do. (especially if we are at war with some rad covered AI country) - i.e. We have to trade Ecology and get the AI's doing the job for us. (And watch out for isolated islands....caravels.)

As Cas said, space vic= fast Education/fast Oxford/6 cities. This fits with a super science capital....Need to explore West to make sure we dont get boxed in too early. (It's unlikely but you never know)

I like the idea of using spy's to steal the Ai tech but I accept the arguement that the GW is obsolete (and could slow down a GS/Academy) so should be parked for second or third city if we go there at all.

I'm happy with warrior/WB first. (Meets the need for exploration and helps city growth). - And it has to be fishing as first tech.

 

[beestar]

Great analysis BLubmuz. Figuring out the AI techs will be very useful.

Hey, when you get messages like "Cower before the might of our Swordsmen", does the AI actually have to have a Swordsman, or just the prerequisites tech? It might be useful to check all the diplo screens every turn, to see if we can gain that information. This isn't useful until after we declare peace, of course.

I think befriending Gandhi as our only friend and trading partner may be a good idea. He'll probably get steamrolled by one of the others otherwise ...

In terms of the vic conditions. - Clearing worldwide fallout is the hardest things for us to do. (especially if we are at war with some rad covered AI country) - i.e. We have to trade Ecology and get the AI's doing the job for us. (And watch out for isolated islands....caravels.)

It's true that we will have to do this before we can win, but I expect to have a lot of spare worker turns toward the end to do this. We could gift workers to the AI to help with cleanup. It would be really useful to know how the AI prioritizes fallout cleanup: first priority? after specials? after regular improvements? never?

 

[BLubmuz]

I think the best option to manage to clean the fallout is to gain OB with all the AIs and send our workers to clean it.
This enforces my assumption that Stalin has Ecology, since it will be harder for us to make peace with him and probably he's got some advanced units. But probably not the ability to field them, since he's isolated.
Or he can have some nukes. But no worries, until he can see the target he can't launch. Let's just remember this when the time for trading maps will arrive!

Of course another option will be gave them Ecology, but it's a very advanced tech, so it's far ahead.
From my analysis (which can be wrong), i guess the only AI with Ecology is Stalin.

To add to the doubts i expressed in my previous post, i also doubt Erkon would have gave the AI Ecology and removed one or two of the ordinary techs. But it's possible if his target is to puzzle us.

The only thing I'm sure is Gandhi has the right techs, plus Alpha, see what he can research and his score.

 

[beestar]

Workers can clean fallout in territory belonging to other civs? I know they can build roads and railroads ...

 

[BLubmuz]

Workers can clean fallout in territory belonging to other civs? I know they can build roads and railroads ...

I'm afraid you can be right. Need to test this.

 

[BLubmuz]

Workers can clean fallout in territory belonging to other civs? I know they can build roads and railroads ...

Tested. We can't clean fallout in foreign territory. I guess it's like to chop a forest.

Another thought: i started a normal map and tried to see how many tiles there're for domination: i settled an all land tile and it showed me 0.68%. This means 1250 tiles.
Some can be mountains, so unreachable.
Let's keep 1200. 6 worker turn each and we have 7200 worker turns. Plus the time to reach the tiles to clean. Assuming we can clean 4 tiles every turn (48 workers stacked in 8 stacks, since they lose a move to arrive to the tile) this means 300 turns only to clean the fallout. With roads and HS/SP this can be lowered, but not much since they arrive quite late.
By the time we can give Ecology to the AI (which we must fed with all the prerequisites) i doubt it will be possible to clean all the tiles. Not mentioning the maintenance costs for such an army of workers and the time to build it.

Thus i can bet that Erkon puzzled us: he gave Ecology to all the AIs and removed a normal tech. Hunting sure and probably archery.
And i can bet we have Gandhi as a neighbour.
About the military power, Gandhi would not have any unit, but the other have some. Maybe Fighters or Bombers, so they can't change the game too much.
Stalin probably has nukes. A single ICBM gives 46k points for power.
A normal Emperor AI starts with 2 scouts and 3 archers and it have between 14k and 21k points. This is probably due to "almost military techs" like mining wich worths 2k points.

 

[BLubmuz]

hmm... i feel infected by Dhoomstriker.

OK, more thoughts:

Assumptions:
1) We can't clean the AIs territories, so they're supposed to do by themselves
2) If they can't clean their own territories, they will stay in the stoneage until the endgame.
3) Provided Erkon left the jungles and the forests and few other tiles clean, how can the AI develop?
Do they will wait until BW to chop the forests and to IW to clean the jungles?
How many tiles can they work in this way, even provided he gave them BW and IW?

Conclusion:
Erkon gave them Ecology and removed some normal tech/s

Another point: settling the first city, you gain 5 points for population and 16 for wonders (the Palace). That pop-point is worth 4k in military power.
You gain nothing for the land, since you must own it for 10 turns before it adds to your score.

Another thing i tested was the AP.
I gave us the tech and i revolted to Christianity. I can build the HS but not the AP.

For what is worth, one more thing is the points in score from land: fallout land does NOT count. I waited 10 turns, still 0. 20 turns, 0. Then removed the fallout and the score for land jumped to 14 and 33.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, after all that testing and reasoning, some team management.

Who likes to take in charge for the first TS (turn 0 to 20)?

Can i set a deadline for that TS being posted to 09/22 or 23?

I think that with no need to post screenies and no (or only one) unit/s to move the TS can go straight to the end in few minutes.
We "only" need to decide the build queue and the research.
The city site is decided, if i got it right.

 

[Fluroscent]

I agree, we can expect the AI to have ecology. About the test save, since we cannot know where the AI are located beforehand, the tweaking to get the AI's techs right can be done after the first TS when we would know more (something to do during the first set - keep tabs on the demographics)

Since we have contacts already, should we focus our EPs on anyone? I think we should, and there seem to be two candidates: Gandhi, if we intend to befriend him, which will allow us to direct our research better knowing what he will get for us, or Stalin, since it seems it would be nice to have more information on him. I favor putting them on Gandhi and getting enough to see his research. With luck, this can be worth several techs later.

Since you are all over the demographics already BLubmuz, why don't you steer us through the first set. I'm off to test some openings now.

 

[BLubmuz]

Since you are all over the demographics already BLubmuz, why don't you steer us through the first set. I'm off to test some openings now.

What a waste of a great MM.
Seriously, I think i'm so tired of testing and analyzing this map that i can make some mistake, even if there's almost nothing to do.

About openings, i've sen this:
Settle turn 1, borders turn 4

with warrior - WB first, by turn 35 we have:
- size 2
- net improved
- worker ready
- knowledge of the land

with worker first, by turn 35 we have:
- Pasture (turn 31)
- Cows hooked (turn 33)
- size 2 on turn 35
- the fish is improved next turn, 36
- no knowledge of the land, warrior is ready on turn 40

Comparing the 2 choices, with warrior/WB first, we gain
- 2 commerce for 10 turns
- the chance to scout the neighborhood
- some safety having a defensive unit, for weak it can be.
and we lose 15 worker turns

With warrior+worker first we gain 7 worker turns, so i don't think this is a good choice.
To be honest, mainly in this scenario, 15 worker turns surpasses 20 commerce gained.

The reason why i prefer warrior/wb first is more the safety and the chance to scout the land. Mainly that sea tile S, to see if there's seafood and looking for copper.
BTW, we can't work both gold and keep 2 Sci at work, so the Academy will not arrive so early.
I'm not much afraid for the chance to lose the Oracle in this scenario, so i think we must squeeze BW somewhere early.
Also, if we're busy building workers, it can make sense to research the path to PH before writing, so we can have a discount on it, while researching techs which we have to research in any case.

But this will be matter for next TSs.

 

[beestar]

Conclusion:
Erkon gave them Ecology and removed some normal tech/s

The other option is that the AI starting sites are really nice and have low fallout. It's not really in the spirit or how Erkon described the game, but it's possible that the AIs have enough nice tiles for 1-2 cities.

Another thing i tested was the AP.
I gave us the tech and i revolted to Christianity. I can build the HS but not the AP.

So if you have Theology alone, you can't build the AP? That's strange, I would have thought you should be able to.


For the beginning turnset, there might not be many actions but I think we should be trying to gain as much data as possible from the demographics screen and opening the trade screens. Can I suggest just 10 turns to lower the burden?

BLubmuz, did you mean to post a plan by the 22nd, or finish playing and post the results by the 22nd?

 

[Fluroscent]

Ran a couple of worker first tests, and there is one that seems to fit very nicely.

Tech: fishing-AH-Wheel-Writing-Mysticism-Meditation-Priesthood-Agriculture-Math-CoL
Build: Worker-Warrior-WB-Worker-Library-WB-Settler-Oracle
Growth to size three happens same turn as WB completes, nicely fitting. And Worker completes same turn as Writing is in.

Worker1: Scrub->pasture->road->scrub->pasture->scrub(riverside gold)->mine
Worker2: Scrub(riverside gold)->Mine
Both then improve other gold, then road to next city and improve rice. Roading the riverside gold first is actually a waste of turns, as the gold happy boost can wait exactly as long as it takes to improve and road the other gold, which means a faster road to the 2nd city.

Of course, we run 2 scientists immediately in when the library completes, which yields a T69 GS for me, and a T83 (800BC) Oracle->CS. Which can surely be improved by stockpiling a bit of gold before the academy completes.

 

[Fluroscent]

And it seems I have chosen a middle road, where we get the warrior before the wb. But as I see it, we cannot afford not to open with a worker. And I still maintain that the safety issue is a moot point, there is no way in hell that the map was designed so that we are attacked that early. And the warrior will be able to scout easily in time for the information gained by scouting is going to change anything anyway.

 

[unclethrill]

I can volunteer for the first TS if no one else wants it. I like the 10 turn idea too at least while we try to gather info on what we are in for.

I'll run some tests tomorrow and post my opinions on what to do to start off.

BTW: I'm starting to lean towards settling on the forest NE instead of NNE. My fog-gazing tells me we will gain 3 ocean squares and lose the rice. Of course there could be potential for BP to build us an oil platform in that ocean later on but we can use the rice now to fuel even more early specialists. With everything improved, we would have 19 food (IIRC) by settling NE and that would allow us to work all visible resource squares at pop 10 and run 3 specialists.

Just food for thought. Plus there is a chance that something will popup on the plain but no chance in the forest.

 

[BLubmuz]

The other option is that the AI starting sites are really nice and have low fallout. It's not really in the spirit or how Erkon described the game, but it's possible that the AIs have enough nice tiles for 1-2 cities.

Sure, it's possible. We have some "nuclear-free" tile. But this won't solve the problem. Once the AI expands and the test i made confirm this, they will settle any "nuclear-free" tile. It won't matter if the city will be a pain, they do. At that point, how can we clean the fallout?
No, i'm sure they have Ecology and that Erkon removed some techs to dupe us.

On another extent we can be forced to wage some war to finish clean the fallout, to satisfy the conditions for this scenario.

So if you have Theology alone, you can't build the AP? That's strange, I would have thought you should be able to.

No, the city where you build it must have a religion and you must have that religion as your State Religion.
But since the Diplo Victory is disabled, the AP is disabled, exactly like the UN.

For the beginning turnset, there might not be many actions but I think we should be trying to gain as much data as possible from the demographics screen and opening the trade screens. Can I suggest just 10 turns to lower the burden?

BLubmuz, did you mean to post a plan by the 22nd, or finish playing and post the results by the 22nd?

Sure, we can arrive to turn 10 (so 11 turns actually, but just to have round numbers) if you like to take note of the few demographics we can see. I think it can be useful info.

I mean to post the save by the 22nd or the 23rd. Mainly if we decide for 11 turns.
Once decided the initial build and research, we can start. It's time lost, otherwise, with all decisions we need to take and only 3 months to the deadline.

 

[beestar]

Rather than join in the micro optimization, I thought I would run some quick and dirty tests in WB.

The AI generally seems to prioritize improving specials, then farming floodplains, then scrubbing fallout, then building roads. It may do more than one of these at the same time if it has 2 Workers. Workers at the edge of cities will tend to be escorted by an archer. The AI will even scrub fallout from a desert riverside tile to gain an amazing 1-commerce tile

Does anyone know what Rising Seas does? Or what the mechanics for ending war are? We've got a couple people looking into micro already, so it would be useful for those of us who are less micro-inclined to look into some of these things ... could be a World Builder experiment or a forum search.

 

[BLubmuz]

I can volunteer for the first TS if no one else wants it. I like the 10 turn idea too at least while we try to gather info on what we are in for.

I'll run some tests tomorrow and post my opinions on what to do to start off.

BTW: I'm starting to lean towards settling on the forest NE instead of NNE. My fog-gazing tells me we will gain 3 ocean squares and lose the rice. (...)

Just food for thought. Plus there is a chance that something will popup on the plain but no chance in the forest.

Well, settling on that forest not only lose the forest, but gives us +1 unealth. If you remember that was my first proposal and i abandoned it mostly due to this. Worker first is out of question with this settling choice, since it will need 30 turns. And the rice is better used by City #2, on the plains hill. A forest lost.

I agree that something can pop in the plains, i can almost bet on it.
Also, i'm not worried by some overlap with city #2, since working 3 ocean tiles is all but great.

I guess we have to better evaluate the city site.

 

[BLubmuz]

Does anyone know what Rising Seas does? Or what the mechanics for ending war are? We've got a couple people looking into micro already, so it would be useful for those of us who are less micro-inclined to look into some of these things ... could be a World Builder experiment or a forum search.

Well, my test, played until turn 80 or so, showed me the following:
Only Gandhi will accept peace and in exchange of... Fishing. After few turns he even agrees on OB and to trade AH for Agri.
No way to make peace with the other Leaders. At least until Alpha. They accept to talk, but if we have nothing to offer they won't accept. Once we have our city #2 settled, they ask it for peace.

I guess we have to go for Alpha ASAP. But probably we can have it in trade from Gandhi.
CoL for Alpha is usually accepted.

But there is a *small* detail in my test: they do not have the "-2 you nuked us"
Now i know how to obtain it: i nuke them!

Not sure what that warriors (50 if i count right) dead against a MA mean.

Edit:
Test with Serfdom done, post #3 updated.

I've never experienced rising seas, but it seems to transform in coast a few coastal tiles (not clear if only desert tiles). This should be due to GW.
In any case, Erkon posted he never experienced this in his tests.

 

[havr]

OK, read the posts...

Here are some comments:

1) I don't think they Ecology. Just a feeling from how it was described in the game. It is also sounds funny that this specific technology is remembered by all civs...

2) OK, so the MOD prevents US from settling on fallout, but does it prevent the AI? Maybe the AI can settle on fallout and that is why he doesn't need Ecology.

3) If the AI cannot settle on fallout - does he know it? Or will it try settling and get stuck failing? How good did Firaxis program the AI?

4) OK, here is some "story-based" analysis. Assuming that the game creator wanted to make the world consistent with the story he told I would say that either we are sharing the continent with Stalin OR Stalin has Astronomy OR Satlin's continent is in galley range. Otherwise - how did he get to that other location?

Of course - this just relies that the world is consistent with story. It may very well not be...

5) Regarding the "impossible task of clearing the fallout": too early to start planning this. We know so little, the discussion is kindo of useless now. Lets get going and think about this issue a little later (yes, we need to think about this early. But not too early!)