SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[Fluroscent]

but we can use the rice now to fuel even more early specialists.

We lose the fish though, which is 52, vs the rice which is 4. And the fish will be 6 before the rice can be irrigated. So we actually lose overall food settling on the forest.
That we gain three ocean squares is almost irrelevant, since there are plenty of good terrain to work with, and lategame we can just run specs with growth (likely if we found sushi or something).

Re: global warming and rising seas.
Can we even imagine that these things would influence any decisions we make? I would not worry about it for now (maybe something to consider when we near the industrial age, with factories and plants).

Ecology. If the AI does not have it, and we are not being lied to when it comes to the whole world being mostly covered in fallout, then the AI will be severely crippled. Ergo, they have ecology, for balance reasons.

2) OK, so the MOD prevents US from settling on fallout, but does it prevent the AI? Maybe the AI can settle on fallout and that is why he doesn't need Ecology.

AFAIK, it is not the mod that prevents settling on fallout, that is a normal feature.
I believe that the mod only prevents fallout from disappearing naturally, and that it is the only change made. Thus the AI cannot settle on fallout, and they shouldn't try to settle on it either (Erkon would surely have noticed this in testing).

4) OK, here is some "story-based" analysis. Assuming that the game creator wanted to make the world consistent with the story he told I would say that either we are sharing the continent with Stalin OR Stalin has Astronomy OR Satlin's continent is in galley range. Otherwise - how did he get to that other location?

Of course - this just relies that the world is consistent with story. It may very well not be...

Well, if it were to be consistent, then it would have to be roughly the same map, which they said it wasn't. So I guess anything goes concerning Stalin's location .

5) Regarding the "impossible task of clearing the fallout": too early to start planning this. We know so little, the discussion is kind of useless now. Lets get going and think about this issue a little later (yes, we need to think about this early. But not too early!)

Agreed. Let us focus at what needs to be done now. It is still effectively the ancient era.

How do you guys feel about the possible CS-sling? I think 800BC is a very viable (and safe) target with these settings.

 

[beestar]

Not sure what that warriors (50 if i count right) dead against a MA mean.

Sounds like a hell of a lot of war un-success

 

[Fluroscent]

Hmm, since we have contacts with all the AI, then we should get discounts on some techs immediately. One thing we might save some beakers from is to research AH-fishing instead of fishing-AH. With worker-warrior, the order is irrelevant, but we might get cheaper fishing if some of the AI research it before we start. Also, more AI going slavery means cheaper BW for us. Worth considering.

 

[pnp_dredd]

OK I tested some starts.

I tried early whipping (fishing-BW-AH-Writing-myst-med-PH), but around PH I had an earlier 2nd city and extra worker, but was well behind in tech. Our citizens are needed for an early Academy, rather than earlier production. And there's plenty of things for workers to do other than chopping forests. We may want to slot BW in, but not before Priesthood.

I tried settling in place, but the 30 turns worker-first kills that idea. The extra commerce from the silk is nice, but not that nice.

OK they didn't work. Let's compare warrior-WB to worker-WB
warrior-WB-worker-library
fish-AH-writing
Turn 35 stats:
exactly 2 pop
writing complete
0 worker turns used
WB on fish

vs

worker-WB-library
fish-AH-writing (this might not be optimal - might want wheel)
Turn 35 stats:
2 pop + 9/24 food
writing 176/187 (1 turn to go)
grassland cows improved
2 turns into scrubbing plains cows.
WB on fish in 1 turn
no warrior.

The extra improvement is worth so much.

The extreme version clears the plains cow first (for a slightly earlier library), and doesn't complete a warrior until turn 46 (although there is one in the queue for a while before that)

worker-WB-[begin warrior]-library-warrior-worker-WB-Oracle
fish-AH-wri-wheel-med-myst-PH-BW-Math-COL
Turn 64 GS/Academy and Oracle/CS turn 76.
But at the cost of one extra city, compared to Fluro's plan. Also, the warrior is needed as MP at all times.
The next step is probably Bronze working (3 turns) so that we can switch to Slavery and Bureaucracy at the same time.

worker clears +pastures plains cow first, then grass cow. Wheel comes in just as this finishes, so worker can road the grass cow, then it's only one move to the riverside gold.

 

[Fluroscent]

The extreme version clears the plains cow first

Both cows are grass, the first test game is incorrect

 

[pnp_dredd]

well damn. I was using the second test game though, with the fallout added back in.

I played on for fun, and got Education + 5 cities by 1AD, without tech trading. Of course, I wasn't at war with everyone.

 

[Fluroscent]

Small differences aside, and unknowns like tech discounts, I'd say the case for worker first is looking pretty strong.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm used to have Americans in team, so when i check the thread in the morning i see the news.
We're mostly Europeans, or at least we're mostly living in Europe. So i find something in the afternoon.

Well, i agree that worker first is stronger than warrior/WB first. Not damn stronger but it has some pros.

The cons which concern me is the safety and the exploration. True that we do not need soon the infos we can gather from exploration, but true that see an archer walking in our undefended Capital is *a bit* frustrating.

Let's assume the closer AI Capital is 20 tiles away.
With enough luck the AI can bring an archer to our borders in 30 turns, but more reasonably 40, since they will keep the first one in garrison.
Goin' for worker-WB-warrior (it's the max i can accept, forget anything else before the warrior) will force us to build another warrior to explore, because we'll keep the first one in garrison.

But i think i can accept the risk. Worker first, so be it.

Speaking of later strategy, after long reflection i arrived to the conclusion that probably Erkon do NOT gave to the AIs Ecology. I see strange that he removed some of the "normal" techs from the AIs to give it to them.

So, after many efforts and after a drift by Erkon, i managed to add the MP to Stalin and nuked our opponents. Great fun in watching the mushrooms, BTW.

So i upload the latest version of my test game.
There're some differences to make it clear it's a different game:
- Stalin is Stalin (without adjectives)
- Old Russia is USSR (i find this more fitting with the Leader)
- There's a black sign telling us this is a test game.
Aside this, the visible map should be perfect, of course without the resources we can discover after the appropriate techs, but those can easily be added later.
I also avoided to give the AIs other techs, since i'd like to wait the first TS to see if we manage to discover something. There's nothing to do to update the test game if we go for worker first: just hit enter 20 times.

Last note: there's a warrior with the settler, 'cause i need it. Just delete him.

Please delete the previous save, even if it's wrong it can be confused with the actual save.

 

[havr]

Well, if it were to be consistent, then it would have to be roughly the same map, which they said it wasn't. So I guess anything goes concerning Stalin's location .

Actually, if we forgot all the cool technology it is quite reasonable that the exact knowledge of the world map was lost in the nuclear war. That can only be simulated by using a new map.

 

[beestar]

BLubmuz, quite the controversy you stirred up in the maintenance thread

I do like getting a warrior out to start scouting - early information is valuable in terms of planning.

Also, what about using the warrior to choke the nearest AI? This proved to be useful in SGOTM10 against Gandhi. The usual Emperor unit advantages are lost in this game, where the AI starts with only a settler , so it will take a long time before the AI gathers enough forces to dare to attack a choking warrior.

The need to clear fallout will slow down the AI. A warrior choke may cripple it, enabling us to rapidly expand. (And a minor benefit - we're at war already, so no additional diplo loss from the choke)

I'm still very suspicious that one of the AIs has a non-organic unit like a Gunship or Destroyer or something.

 

[BLubmuz]

Finally managed to run some test.
The first one was focused on research, the second in production.

I managed CS on turn 80 in the first and on turn 82 in the second.
I even managed to trade OB with Gandhi and to trade some techs.
In the second i even squeezed Agri and BW before the Oracle, so i think that despite the appearance, it was better tech-wise.

Of course i don't explore, it's totally useless.
Both can be improved, let me see what i can do.

I've also learnt a trick:
If you contact an AI and say "we would like to make a trade proposal" they are less inclined to accept peace.
But if you say "Let's stop this..." they accept, since they are (nor are you) tied to a peace treaty. You (or they) can DoW even the same turn.
In any case, in my test, all the AIs accepted the peace treaty but Gandhi.
But before you settle your 2nd city, or they ask it for peace.

I don't know if this is a BtS feature, IIRC there was any difference between the 2 in Vanilla and Warlords.

Of course we must see how this works in the real game.
Sure would be great to trade some tech with Gandhi.
For some reason, once he contacts Mao, he becomes his worst enemy, thus he's willing to trade. Also this cannot happen in the real game.

 

[BLubmuz]

BLubmuz, quite the controversy you stirred up in the maintenance thread

I do like getting a warrior out to start scouting - early information is valuable in terms of planning.

Also, what about using the warrior to choke the nearest AI? This proved to be useful in SGOTM10 against Gandhi. The usual Emperor unit advantages are lost in this game, where the AI starts with only a settler , so it will take a long time before the AI gathers enough forces to dare to attack a choking warrior.

The need to clear fallout will slow down the AI. A warrior choke may cripple it, enabling us to rapidly expand. (And a minor benefit - we're at war already, so no additional diplo loss from the choke)

I'm still very suspicious that one of the AIs has a non-organic unit like a Gunship or Destroyer or something.

Xposted...
Well, a choking warrior needs a choking point what if there's any?
Better make peace soon, the AIs have other fishes to fry than DoW us.
And, if you read my Xpost, you can see there's some chance of early trading with Gandhi.

And i can bet they don't have Ecology.

I also verified in WB what the AIs were doing: they build 2-3 archers and only late they send one exploring. Or they build a scout and use this one. They wait a lot to start building workers and the first settler comes in play after turn 50.
In my test i has the warrior ready by turn 32, so we're plenty of time to explore before the 3rd city comes in play. I think that if we settle for fish/clams, the site for city 2 is already decided: the forested PH. Pity for the forest, but it's a good location with rice, 2silk and 2 hills... and maybe more, who knows?

The maintenance thread...
I'm convinced that in a competition of this level, probably the highest in this community, everyone knows where to find infos. I any case, i did not revealed much. There's some paranoic here (in this otherwise nice community, i mean).

 

[beestar]

But if you say "Let's stop this..." they accept, since they are (nor are you) tied to a peace treaty. You (or they) can DoW even the same turn.

Do you mean a Cease Fire? A Cease Fire is significantly different from a Peace Treaty, in that it doesn't come with a 10-turn no-DOW period. Good point though - it may be a good idea to go for a Cease Fire instead.


I had a look at the official save game (without making any moves, of course) and had some more thoughts:

1. Each AI is at -8 relations, but only Stalin is Furious (the others are Annoyed). Is this because of hidden modifiers?

2. We will permanently have a -5 relations offset with the AIs, because "You nuked us!" and "You declared war on us!" never go away. It will take some work to offset that -5, and I think we're likely to be the worst enemy of many of the AIs for much of the game. Even after peace, we should be prepared to see some WHEOOHRNs against us.

3. Each AI has a 97 War Weariness with us. Not sure what ours is.

4. Looking at the Event Log and Combat Log, we have sent 14 warriors to die against a Modern Armor of each enemy AI. This is so that the AI has some war success against us, presumably to influence what they will take in exchange for peace. (I assume the Modern Armors were then deleted in WB ... I hope ).

5. Approximately 40 tac nukes were launched. Yet each AI only has a -2 "You nuked us!" penalty - presumably the rest were used to create fallout?

6. When we build our city, can we use tech discounts to see how many AIs know each of the other techs?

7. We can see what techs Gandhi can research in the Tech Trade screen, even if he refuses to talk to us. He can research BW and Polytheism and Meditation and Masonry, so he's definitely got his usual Mysticism and Mining. As BLubmuz noted, he's obviously got Alphabet, and all Emperor AIs get Hunting and Archery. But for some reason, Archery isn't listed in his "Will Trade", "Won't Trade" or "Can't Trade".

 

[beestar]

BLubmuz, how could you figure out that Stalin has Manhattan Project?

 

[BLubmuz]

Do you mean a Cease Fire? A Cease Fire is significantly different from a Peace Treaty, in that it doesn't come with a 10-turn no-DOW period. Good point though - it may be a good idea to go for a Cease Fire instead.

To be accurate, you actually see the "cease-fire" option in the trading table, but this has the same result.
Your questions, in order:
1) No. Stalin has the aggressive trait, so he has different diplo modifiers.
2) Sure, no way to remove that -5. But i'm start thinking that, if the AI is lacking Ecology, this will be a war-game. If we need to clean ourselves all the fallout in the world, the only way is to own all the land.
As i already posted, probably we need to take all the AI cities but one, clean the fallout, gift one (clean) city back and sue for peace. This is probably why Domination is not a VC.
3) Their WW will decrease, since i've noticed some 16, but in the test game.
4) I can't remember now if it was a MA of each enemy, probably it was. I got this theory:
Erkon deleted all the MAs but 1 or 2 he left to Stalin. This can explain his impressive military power. But probably he's isolated and a good nuke will solve the problem.
5) I think so
6) Techs discounts apply to our research once we have contact with the AI knowing the tech(s) the more AI know the tech, the more the discount (same applies for them). So, Churchill start with Fishing, Gandhi with Mysticism, Mao and DG with Agri. We'll have massive discounts. And, since the AI loves BW, we'll have on that too.
7) I'm sure G. has archery and we can research, since we have the prerequisites.
In the post where i reported the real save situation, i listed also the techs the Emperor AI starts with.

Finally, my theory for this game: with all that mess of fallout they can't clean, the AI will arrive at best to Feudalism. We have to worry only for the opening and for the other teams participating to this SG, not for the AI.
So, since i'm conviced many of them will arrive to this same conclusion, we must tech like crazy, pop workers like crazy, fight like Rambo.

 

[BLubmuz]

BLubmuz, how could you figure out that Stalin has Manhattan Project?

I do NOT figure, i see it: F9, Top 5 cities. 3 buttons high, center-right: WW, NW, Projects. You can even see the NW once you can see the city in the map. But you can see the WW and the Projects without knowing the map. You see only the owner.
BTW, once created, a world project like the MP cannot be eliminated even if you raze any city the AI who built it has.

 

[Fluroscent]

The idea that we need to own most of the world seems to be the overarching idea we take from all this knowledge.

So if we are to return to the first set, and summarize the ideas and decisions so far, we have:

-Settle NNE on T1
-Begin worker
-Focus EPs on Gandhi (nobody commented, but I see no reason not to do this)
-Check if Gandhi can be bribed to peace

Now, for techs, we should figure out if we start with fishing-AH, or AH-fishing. We need fishing before the worker completes if we plan to do worker-wb, but if we want the warrior sooner to explore a bit, then we will easily have both in time for use.

So it will require some tech cost gazing, and predicting to see if we can discount fishing by delaying it.
Of course, AH might get discounted too if we wait, but we have no way to know if the AI has pasture resources that might make them go AH first.

 

[unclethrill]

We lose the fish though, which is 52, vs the rice which is 4. And the fish will be 6 before the rice can be irrigated. So we actually lose overall food settling on the forest..

You are correct. That will teach me to make suggestion at 2AM. Disregard my suggestion to settle NE. We should go to NNE to settle.

 

[BLubmuz]

To stay on the early decisions:

So if we are to return to the first set, and summarize the ideas and decisions so far, we have:

-Settle NNE on T1
-Begin worker
-Focus EPs on Gandhi (nobody commented, but I see no reason not to do this)
-Check if Gandhi can be bribed to peace

Now, for techs, we should figure out if we start with fishing-AH, or AH-fishing. We need fishing before the worker completes if we plan to do worker-wb, but if we want the warrior sooner to explore a bit, then we will easily have both in time for use.

So it will require some tech cost gazing, and predicting to see if we can discount fishing by delaying it.
Of course, AH might get discounted too if we wait, but we have no way to know if the AI has pasture resources that might make them go AH first.

I see AH first, then fishing. In my test with worker first, the WB is buildable right after it, but we can see if we have horses in the land we can see.
In those tests i build the Oracle in StPete (Forested PH) around turn 80-82.
My best one is with a later Oracle (1-2 turns) but with 5 workers and a chariot for scouting. The chariot is not faster than a warrior, see the fallouts, but once we have built 2 for MP duties, we can stop build them. If we like we can explore a bit, not much with the first one: Moscow grows fast and we need soon a MP there.
Also, i gave priority to the settler instead of the library. I built a library in StPete and, once completed, the Oracle.

I don't want to pollute the gene in Moscow with GProphets points. Sooner or later we'll pop one from StPete. We need GSs to keep the research rolling.

It's very important we make peace before to settle StPete. Otherwise we have to wait Alpha and i don't want give away techs for peace.
When we'll be ready to declare, we don't have to worry to be dogpiled. Let them come, we can welcome them

 

[unclethrill]

It's very important we make peace before to settle StPete. Otherwise we have to wait Alpha and i don't want give away techs for peace.
When we'll be ready to declare, we don't have to worry to be dogpiled. Let them come, we can welcome them

This is assuming the AI in the actual game will give peace in the same timeframe/mode that they do in the test. Erkon may have done other things to the AI too. We don't need to overly focus on peace. If we are at war, the AI will focus on military instead of expansion. This is a good thing! We just need enough military to hold them at bay for a bit while we out tech the heck out of them.