SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[cas]

Hola.
I had time during the week to play the 2nd turnset, but the discussion over mm has extended beyond that. I won't have time this weekend. I ran a couple of tests, but they aren't as detailed as Fluro/BLumbuz and I'm getting confused at this point with all the arguments.

Someone else take the next turnset.

cas

 

[unclethrill]

It seems to me that we have agreement from the testers on the following issues:

Research: Wheel -> Writing
Build: WB -> worker
Current worker should clear FO and pasture cows.

This really should cover almost all of the next TS so we really have no reason to delay playing it. If CAS isn't available, why not have Flouro play. He isn't available in the middle of Oct IIRC so now would be a great time for him to knock out 15 or 20 turns.

 

[BLubmuz]

But my main concern is getting bureau and academy. I think that the post-oracle concerns take a lower priority. And mining the gold quicker helps us get there faster.

I agree, it's mine too.

It will happen automatically when we improve the land, and StP has no immediate health concerns.
OK

But it is faster to clean the GL... And if not, we will delay the academy since we have to produce more food. Again, let us not get caught up in post-Oracle stuff! Getting the Oracle sooner IS better.

In some of my attempts i needed the mine to arrive to produce the Oracle in time. If it's not the case, we save 3 turns, so it's OK for me

I don't see how, I grow to size 5 as fast as humanly possible, and only get the mine up exactly the turn I grow to 5. But I will try to test one more time to see if I can make it work your way.

Well, the stupid Governor moves to the 2nd pasture when it's improved, 'cause you're building a WB.
It's all but stupid, it's the key: you build the WB in 3 turns, grow in 3 turns, then you work 2cows+fish, build the warrior in 3, grow in 3, then you work both seafood and cows.
So you can grow faster while the workers scrub/mine the W gold. This faster growth it's the key to the Academy before turn 70, with some MM after awhile.

 

[BLubmuz]

Someone else take the next turnset.

It seems to me that we have agreement from the testers on the following issues:

Research: Wheel -> Writing
Build: WB -> worker
Current worker should clear FO and pasture cows.
Then move to W cows, scrub/pasture. by the time he finish to scrub, next one will stack to pasture.

The MM is important: once the SE cows are scrubbed, the governor moves the citizen there. it's OK©Fluro

This really should cover almost all of the next TS so we really have no reason to delay playing it. If CAS isn't available, why not have Flouro play. He isn't available in the middle of Oct IIRC so now would be a great time for him to knock out 15 or 20 turns.

Next in roster are Havr and Orb. First come first serve!
Just post a short PPP to ensure us you got everything under control, then go!

@Cas
it's OK for you just swap and play after the weekend?

 

[unclethrill]

I agree, it's mine too.In some of my attempts i needed the mine to arrive to produce the Oracle in time. If it's not the case, we save 3 turns, so it's OK for meWell, the stupid Governor moves to the 2nd pasture when it's improved, 'cause you're building a WB.
It's all but stupid, it's the key: you build the WB in 3 turns, grow in 3 turns, then you work 2cows+fish, build the warrior in 3, grow in 3, then you work both seafood and cows.
So you can grow faster while the workers scrub/mine the W gold. This faster growth it's the key to the Academy before turn 70, with some MM after awhile.

HHOOOOHHHAAAAHHH.


So can we now play the next 19 turns???

 

[BLubmuz]

OK I tested (again). Doing it the way you did, both roading cow, then roading both gold, we work an unmined gold hill 1 turn at size 5, costing 16, and settle StP 1 turn later due to the road not being ready, slowing everything from there. And we clean the GL a turn later too, costing food, slowing academy.

By the way, we do not have to road the 2W gold at all (well, not until railroad), since we can road the forest below instead, which is a square we will want to go to anyway.

I missed this one.
Please don't tell me that saving 1 worker turn not roading the W gold you can have the mine ready 1 turn earlier.
Let's go in deep:
turn 1
you - move both workers to the SW gold
me - move one for each hill
turn 2
you - road, completed
me - road*2, half
turn 3
you - move both workers to W gold
me - road*2, completed
turn 4
you & me - both workers start scrub W gold

Bah... and you even not save that turn. Stupid me to not think to this comparison before.

 

[Fluroscent]

Let's go in deep:
turn 1
you - move both workers to the SW gold
me - move one for each hill
turn 2
you - road, completed
me - road*2, half
turn 3
you - move both workers to W gold
me - road*2, completed
turn 4
you & me - both workers start scrub W gold

Nope, did you even try to follow my moves?
Here is what I do, in your format:

turn 0
me - one worker moves to SW gold, other begins cow road
you - both workers build cow road
turn 1
me - worker on gold begins road, other finishes cow road
you - move one for each hill
turn 2
me - SW gold road completed, other worker moves onto hill (roaded) and scrubs
you - road*2, half
turn 3
me - other worker scrubs too
you - road*2, completed
turn 4
me - total of five worker turns used on scrubbing
you - total of two worker turns used on scrubbing

Net result, I finish the mine 1 turn sooner (and grow to work it same turn). And I have one worker turn to spare, which lets me complete the StP road in time for the settler to move there.

 

[Fluroscent]

Yes we seem to have agreement up to finishing the 2nd pasture now. I'd prefer one of the following turnsets, as this one is quite simple.
To recap:
-Worker to SE cows
-Build worker for 1T until fishing
-Switch to WB, research wheel after fishing
-Work the cow tile immediately when cleared of fallout
-Once SE cows are pastured, move the worker to the W cows
-Once the wb is done, resume building worker.
-When the worker is done, move to pasture W cows.
-Begin building a workboat after the worker
-End when the pasture is complete (when the city can work it, not when the workers are free to move!!)

And of course, whoever play this make sure to keep an eye on any announcements/AI activity.

 

[Fluroscent]

Well, the stupid Governor moves to the 2nd pasture when it's improved, 'cause you're building a WB.
It's all but stupid, it's the key: you build the WB in 3 turns, grow in 3 turns, then you work 2cows+fish, build the warrior in 3, grow in 3, then you work both seafood and cows.
So you can grow faster while the workers scrub/mine the W gold. This faster growth it's the key to the Academy before turn 70, with some MM after awhile.

Now, testing the cow/fish thing.

T38 - 2nd pasture complete, choice to work cow+fish, or cow+cow.

Fish:
T40 - Growth to size 3
T42 - WB complete, begin warrior
T43 - Growth to size 4
T45 - warrior->library
T46 - Growth to size 5, work gold

T47 status:
Size 5+15 (2 Turns)
Library 40/90 (3 Turns)
Mysticism 71/78

Cow:
T41 - Growth to size 3, wb->warrior
T44 - Growth to size 4, warrior->library
T46 - Mine complete, choice between gold or clam
T47 - Growth to size 5

T47 status(gold):
Size 5+6 (3 Turns)
Library 48/90 (3 Turns)
Mysticism 60/78

T47 status(clam):
Size 5+10 (3 Turns)
Library 42/90 (3 Turns)
Mysticism 55/78

Since the food from the clams is not enough to grow sooner, the gold seems better to work.
So let's compare that with the fish approach.

Fish gets 9, loses 8, gains 11
The hammers are almost irrelevant, since the library completes the same turn.
And since we also grow a turn sooner, we should definitely work the fish over the cow.
If we take the clam approach:
Fish gets 5, loses 2, gains 16

Conclusion: The governor IS stupid.

Anything else? Or maybe you could do some testing yourself before stating things that are wrong (again)

 

[BLubmuz]

Nope, did you even try to follow my moves?
Here is what I do, in your format:

turn 0
me - one worker moves to SW gold, other begins cow road
you - both workers build cow road
(...)
turn 4
me - total of five worker turns used on scrubbing
you - total of two worker turns used on scrubbing

Net result, I finish the mine 1 turn sooner (and grow to work it same turn). And I have one worker turn to spare, which lets me complete the StP road in time for the settler to move there.

This is why i always went for the W gold (+1C compared to the SW). But yes, it works!
To avoid to waste worker turns once the mine is completed, we send 1 to road for StPete and the other to road the W gold.
The commerce lost should be compensated by the gold 1 turn earlier and by the hammers. Even if the library completes the same turn, you have more overflow.

We'll probably avoid the road on the forest S of gold, we can just improve the tile or let it as is for awhile.

OK we can proceed now, provided we find a volunteer for next TS.
Where is the rest of the band?

 

[BLubmuz]

Planning after this TS, i'm not convinced of the fish instead of cow.
Until turn 47 fish seems to win, but when the library completes?

I can try to answer myself, but if you already have the answer, better

 

[Fluroscent]

Until turn 47 fish seems to win, but when the library completes?

Since the library finishes the same turn, It is hard to see how it would catch up. Either way, fish wins on growth, which is the most important.

 

[unclethrill]

Wow still no volunteers to play??

 

[BLubmuz]

Wow still no volunteers to play??

I'd like to reserve more advanced TSs for the stronger MMs.
But if no one chimes in i'll be forced to do something .

I've noticed a lack of activity by some members... something wrong, too busy in RL, or C5?

BTW i've ordered it, it should arrive in few days (good ol' package from Amazon-UK even if there's not the Italian version i don't care, i played in Italian for less than 3 months, i think). Still, i'm conviced i'll play both.

 

[unclethrill]

I've noticed a lack of activity by some members... something wrong, too busy in RL, or C5?

BTW i've ordered it, it should arrive in few days (good ol' package from Amazon-UK even if there's not the Italian version i don't care, i played in Italian for less than 3 months, i think). Still, i'm conviced i'll play both.

V is good but it really seems to have as much or more learning curve as IV had over III. I have playe d2 or 3 times but it is just a bunch of "going through the motions". I can't wait till I understand the mechanics like I do those in IV but alas it will likely be years so ...
I agree IV will be played by me for a while too!

 

[havr]

OK, gave up on trying to run Civ V. The demo just crashes. I have new laptop, but it is probably not strong enough (it is very strong except it has the Intel integrated chip).

I can try to do the next TS. But it can take me a couple of days to find the time. In any case, it is has been hard to really follow the discussion, so let me see if I can get the PPP right:

Research: Wheel -> Writing
Build: WB -> worker
Current worker should clear FO and pasture cows.

thanks Unclethrill

Where is the updated test game? I will want to try it there before diving in.
Also need to install the special mod. Yes, I was lazy... but I have good excuses!

 

[Fluroscent]

Cheers havr!
OK, I replayed the opening turns on the testgame and attached the current status at T19. Also attached the testgame as it should look on T38, so you can check if you do it right.
Here is what I summarized earlier:

To recap:
-Worker to SE cows
-Build worker for 1T until fishing
-Switch to WB, research wheel after fishing
-Work the cow tile immediately when cleared of fallout
-Once SE cows are pastured, move the worker to the W cows
-Once the wb is done, resume building worker.
-When the worker is done, move to pasture W cows.
-Begin building a workboat after the worker
-End when the pasture is complete (when the city can work it, not when the workers are free to move!!)

And of course, whoever play this make sure to keep an eye on any announcements/AI activity.

By the way, I am probably in the minority, but I have no plans to buy Civ-V yet, as I like to wait for a few patches to make it more stable/balanced first.

On the subject of turnsets, maybe BLubmuz and I should just divide the rest of the turns up to Oracle T38-T74 (presumably) between us, so that the next players can be more active in planning the turnsets rather than follow our script.

 

[BLubmuz]

I can try to do the next TS. But it can take me a couple of days to find the time. In any case, it is has been hard to really follow the discussion, so let me see if I can get the PPP right:

On the subject of turnsets, maybe BLubmuz and I should just divide the rest of the turns up to Oracle T38-T74 (presumably) between us, so that the next players can be more active in planning the turnsets rather than follow our script.

Well, Havr play as soon as you can.
What Fluro posted can be your PPP. Just try it using the tests he uploaded to assure you got it.

And, yes, i think it's best thing to do split the rest until Oracle between us, Fluro.
We'll keep the ball rolling and we can be sure no one complaints about the need to strictly follow our moves

But it's strange to see a so low activity.

 

[beestar]

Yeah, I endorse Fluro and BL playing some early turnsets, since you two have been working on the details. Does it make sense for e.g. Fluro to play this first turnset, then have havr step in (so he has a few days to catch up), and then Blubmuz plays a tursnet?

P.S. I got Civ 5 on Friday

 

[BLubmuz]

Yeah, I endorse Fluro and BL playing some early turnsets, since you two have been working on the details. Does it make sense for e.g. Fluro to play this first turnset, then have havr step in (so he has a few days to catch up), and then Blubmuz plays a tursnet?

P.S. I got Civ 5 on Friday

It makes sense only in terms of time. It's almost a week after the first TS is posted.

I think we can keep the ball rolling in this way, so we can probaly arrive to Oracle in a week. Me and Fluro have already our PPP