beestar
subdeity
On holiday this weekend, so no Civ for me ... will be back on Tuesday!
SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Fluroscent
Emperor
Since we cannot switch to slavery yet, I think it is really an obvious choice. Not switching to bureau immediately is a huge waste of resources since it gives such tremendous return, even if just for two turns to research BW first.pnp_dredd said:
If we had some great need of whipping, it might be different, but it sure does not look like we would be using the whip any time soon anyway, certainly not enough incentive to delay going into bureaucracy.
Caste might not be used either, but it comes along freely now, and could give some micromanagement flexibility.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
After several attempts, i finally managed to connect 
TS played.
All went as per the plan, excluded probably an inverse use of workers in the final turns. Nothing to worry, in any case.
Many news, one really bad:
- Roos built the GLH. I've seen the new on turn 61
- G. built SH, new on turn 74
- we're very close to France. I've never seen a unit from there, but now i'm near their borders with the chariot.
- There're sugar and pigs SW, but a coastal tile is occupied by French culture. Paris should be W of the gulf.
- There's another Ivory and another hill in BFC of the city we probably settle 1N of the lake, making a very good site.
- The hill 1N of StPete is a Grass, not a plains... sorry. This means the city will have a bit more food and less production. Still a good city, maybe even better. But the 2nd chariot has some delay.
the log:
More will follow and if this forum will be less pestered by CiV, i'll even update page 1.
Who's next? Soon, please!
TS played.
All went as per the plan, excluded probably an inverse use of workers in the final turns. Nothing to worry, in any case.
Many news, one really bad:
- Roos built the GLH. I've seen the new on turn 61
- G. built SH, new on turn 74
- we're very close to France. I've never seen a unit from there, but now i'm near their borders with the chariot.
- There're sugar and pigs SW, but a coastal tile is occupied by French culture. Paris should be W of the gulf.
- There's another Ivory and another hill in BFC of the city we probably settle 1N of the lake, making a very good site.
- The hill 1N of StPete is a Grass, not a plains... sorry. This means the city will have a bit more food and less production. Still a good city, maybe even better. But the 2nd chariot has some delay.
the log:
Spoiler :
More will follow and if this forum will be less pestered by CiV, i'll even update page 1.
Who's next? Soon, please!
beestar
subdeity
Had a chance to log in while on holiday. Things look good! Maybe we just conquer the GLH.
Would it be useful to post some screenshots for the players who don't download the saves themselves? That might make discussion a bit faster.
I'm not sure who's up next, but just reiterating that I definitely won't be able to play this weekend.
Would it be useful to post some screenshots for the players who don't download the saves themselves? That might make discussion a bit faster.
I'm not sure who's up next, but just reiterating that I definitely won't be able to play this weekend.
Fluroscent
Emperor
Great to see the CS-sling work without problems! I think we did well to be where we are now. With the wonders the AI have built, we could have lost Oracle if we had gone for a slower approach.
Thoughts on the further play:
-I'd like to see more of the land to the north before dedicating to a 3rd city location. 1N of lake looks strong though, but it would be nice to see that we don't end up blocking some better sites. The next chariot can check this out
-The city 1N of lake is a good production site, possibly a target HEpic location, although it will not be fantastic when we reach the industrial age, with too much coast and no levee. Still, a very good option for a mid-game siege pump.
-I think it is likely that DeGaulle is on a seperate landmass, or at least that there is a long way around the sea.
-I checked the glance screen, and it seems Gandhi, Roosevelt and Mao have all met each other, but no-one else have made contact. So I would not be suprised to see Churchill somewhere nearby too, and the other three on a more distant landmass.
-I don't know why we are scrubbing a plains tile, but I'd make sure we have the worker ready to farm the rice in 2T when we would have agriculture.
-Since we can grow to size 3 one turn after finishing the chariot, we could put 1T into a barracks, then build worker at size 3, then resume barracks.
-Moscow should work all the improved tiles rather than scientists now, to both speed up the worker and gain more raw commerce rather than science.
-It looks like the AI have gotten reasonable starting locations, given their current rate of expansion and of course the wonders built. At least we don't have to discuss going for GLH now
.
-If we try to broker peace with Gandhi, he will ask for StP. But we could try to offer our techs instead, as it sometimes is possible to get peace that way, even if the AI wants a city.
-If he will not take our current options, we might try again once he gets writing so we can offer CoL/Math.
-Should we switch to CoL right away? I'd say we should, since revolutions are always cheaper when done earlier.
-I think we should probably make the next set a split one, where the first part is about scouting a bit to the north with the 2nd chariot, and researching BW to reveal copper. Then we can begin some dotmapping before the 2nd part.
Who is up for the next set?
Thoughts on the further play:
-I'd like to see more of the land to the north before dedicating to a 3rd city location. 1N of lake looks strong though, but it would be nice to see that we don't end up blocking some better sites. The next chariot can check this out
-The city 1N of lake is a good production site, possibly a target HEpic location, although it will not be fantastic when we reach the industrial age, with too much coast and no levee. Still, a very good option for a mid-game siege pump.
-I think it is likely that DeGaulle is on a seperate landmass, or at least that there is a long way around the sea.
-I checked the glance screen, and it seems Gandhi, Roosevelt and Mao have all met each other, but no-one else have made contact. So I would not be suprised to see Churchill somewhere nearby too, and the other three on a more distant landmass.
-I don't know why we are scrubbing a plains tile, but I'd make sure we have the worker ready to farm the rice in 2T when we would have agriculture.
-Since we can grow to size 3 one turn after finishing the chariot, we could put 1T into a barracks, then build worker at size 3, then resume barracks.
-Moscow should work all the improved tiles rather than scientists now, to both speed up the worker and gain more raw commerce rather than science.
-It looks like the AI have gotten reasonable starting locations, given their current rate of expansion and of course the wonders built. At least we don't have to discuss going for GLH now
.-If we try to broker peace with Gandhi, he will ask for StP. But we could try to offer our techs instead, as it sometimes is possible to get peace that way, even if the AI wants a city.
-If he will not take our current options, we might try again once he gets writing so we can offer CoL/Math.
-Should we switch to CoL right away? I'd say we should, since revolutions are always cheaper when done earlier.
-I think we should probably make the next set a split one, where the first part is about scouting a bit to the north with the 2nd chariot, and researching BW to reveal copper. Then we can begin some dotmapping before the 2nd part.
Who is up for the next set?
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
After several attempts, i finally managed to connect
TS played.
All went as per the plan, excluded probably an inverse use of workers in the final turns. Nothing to worry, in any case.
Great job!
While I agree that we need the HE at some point, I really think that some time spent now deciding what wonders to target will be time well spent. If we continually chase the wonder du jour, we will surely lose.
For example, do we try for the GLib? We get two free scientists but how fast to we get to the obsolescence tech? And will those turns spent researching Lit and hammers to build it be offset in the big scheme of things.
I wouldn't be harping on this if it hadn't been an issue in the past (and most of my individual games). Am I beating a dead horse here?
Some ideas on the wonders issue:
- Great Library is not that much attractive since we are not philosophical, so the scientists are less useful.
- AP can be very useful to force the AI to peace.
- SoZ can serve the same purpose. AND it will really cripple the AI as long as there is no peace. Thinking of it when the war weariness will start hitting them we will sign peace with close AI but leave one or two stronger AIs with war just to damage them...
- A great shrine can be very useful. As long as we have wars we get not foreign trade routes so the shrine can help balance our budget. GLH could have done the same, but that is water under the bridge.
- Another way to balance our budget is Temple of Artemis.
- GLH is done, so no use saying if it is good or bad.
- Great Library is not that much attractive since we are not philosophical, so the scientists are less useful.
- AP can be very useful to force the AI to peace.
- SoZ can serve the same purpose. AND it will really cripple the AI as long as there is no peace. Thinking of it when the war weariness will start hitting them we will sign peace with close AI but leave one or two stronger AIs with war just to damage them...
- A great shrine can be very useful. As long as we have wars we get not foreign trade routes so the shrine can help balance our budget. GLH could have done the same, but that is water under the bridge.
- Another way to balance our budget is Temple of Artemis.
- GLH is done, so no use saying if it is good or bad.
Fluroscent
Emperor
I am not definitely not pushing GLib without marble, as it is true that it is probably too expensive without marble or being PHI or having early representation. Not that it is bad to build (in Moscow) if we somehow have time, but I doubt that we will.unclethrill said:
But the national wonders (the epics) are both far too good to pass up in a game like this, and combined with getting music first makes the path very attractive. Music will allow us to starve a GS to bulb education and then switch to slavery/org freely by using a golden age to make that crucial early Oxford possible.
Unfortunately, the AP is not available in this game.havr said:
I don't know the mechanics of SoZ, but if it immediately doubles the accumulated war weariness, then it is surely a good build. But if it only doubles war weariness accumulated after it is built, then not so much. Does anyone know how it actually works?havr said:
ToA without foreign routes and marble is definitely a poor build.havr said:
Agree, but I wouldn't go out of our way to pop a prophet, but if we do pop one, I'm all for a shrine.havr said:
The game cheats on AI war weariness. You could kill 1000 of their troops and the game caps AI war weariness at fairly low level that doesn't cause them that much pain. That is my understanding from testing it quite a while ago.
I wouldn't build it unless we can find a definitive answer/article somewhere that describes exactly how much it will help.
cas
Fluroscent
Emperor
Or hurt us in the hands of the AI...cas said:
Hey guys, we still need someone for the next set! come on - Civ V is not going anywhere
pnp_dredd
civ junkie
I can play a short set but it will have to be tomorrow night, or perhaps I can squeeze it in on Wednesday. After that I'll be unable to play for around 10 days, so I'll pass the baton if we don't have good agreement by then.
This PPP is for 5 turns, till BW, to keep the ball rolling.
Tech: 0% - Agri - BW
Moscow:
assign citizen to clams from specialist
worker-settler
(after the settler I think we should build a Confucian temple so we can work cottages, and I plan to chop a forest into a settler by building that cottage)
StP:
chariot - worker (can be size 3 + complete chariot in 2 turns with some micro)
Revised worker plan:
Worker1 completes road (this is enough road if we are settling city3 1 N of the lake) then moves to clear he next city site.
Worker2 scrubs for 1 turn, then moves to irrigate the rice.
Worker3 assist irrigating the rice
chariot1 head SW towards France to cause trouble
chariot2 head NW to see if there's a way to France that way, and scout city sites
Notes:
I'm not a fan of chain-irrigating the rice. That will cost us 2 cottages in Moscow, which I don't think is a good tradeoff.
The French lands that we can see are without fallout. This makes their cities incredibly valuable, much better than founding our own at this stage.
We have options for techs after BW:
poly-aesth-lit for NEpic, HEpic and other wonders (11 turns)
masonry-construction for cats and elephants (7 turns)
paper-edu for Oxford, unlocks gunpowder (46 turns)
currency for trade routes, wealth-building and markets (7 turns)
philo for pacifism (extra GPP), monopolise religions (13 turns)
monarchy for more happiness, but we're heath-capped (5 turns)
alphabet for spies and tech trading opportunities (5 turns )
sailing-calendar for plantations (8 turns)
We want Education pretty soon. I think we want at least Construction, Alpha and Lit before we head for Education. Earlier construction is earlier Cats which is a Good Thing. A military buildup is a useful thing to do while we grow cities until universities.
However, there are lots of options after BW. We'll complete BW in 5 turns and I'll stop there.
This PPP is for 5 turns, till BW, to keep the ball rolling.
Tech: 0% - Agri - BW
Moscow:
assign citizen to clams from specialist
worker-settler
(after the settler I think we should build a Confucian temple so we can work cottages, and I plan to chop a forest into a settler by building that cottage)
StP:
chariot - worker (can be size 3 + complete chariot in 2 turns with some micro)
Revised worker plan:
Worker1 completes road (this is enough road if we are settling city3 1 N of the lake) then moves to clear he next city site.
Worker2 scrubs for 1 turn, then moves to irrigate the rice.
Worker3 assist irrigating the rice
chariot1 head SW towards France to cause trouble
chariot2 head NW to see if there's a way to France that way, and scout city sites
Notes:
I'm not a fan of chain-irrigating the rice. That will cost us 2 cottages in Moscow, which I don't think is a good tradeoff.
The French lands that we can see are without fallout. This makes their cities incredibly valuable, much better than founding our own at this stage.
We have options for techs after BW:
poly-aesth-lit for NEpic, HEpic and other wonders (11 turns)
masonry-construction for cats and elephants (7 turns)
paper-edu for Oxford, unlocks gunpowder (46 turns)
currency for trade routes, wealth-building and markets (7 turns)
philo for pacifism (extra GPP), monopolise religions (13 turns)
monarchy for more happiness, but we're heath-capped (5 turns)
alphabet for spies and tech trading opportunities (5 turns )
sailing-calendar for plantations (8 turns)
We want Education pretty soon. I think we want at least Construction, Alpha and Lit before we head for Education. Earlier construction is earlier Cats which is a Good Thing. A military buildup is a useful thing to do while we grow cities until universities.
However, there are lots of options after BW. We'll complete BW in 5 turns and I'll stop there.
Fluroscent
Emperor
Good, a short set will make our decision making easier.
Agree on most of the plan, but cottages require pottery, which we need to research. We can probably research Agri-BW-Pottery and finish before the workers chop the forest (if we chop first). One worker can also continue roading W for a 3rd city instead.
I am ok with you playing soon, but I would also want us to try brokering peace with Gandhi by offering our techs. There is no way to know what he will accept without offering it since he will ask for StP for peace. So I'd try offering writing, then writing+our other techs. And then Math when if he gets writing himself etc.
Only 1 actually, if we irrigate the river, then SE. But you might still be right that it is not worth it. We don't have to decide for this short set though.pnp_dredd said:
Agree on most of the plan, but cottages require pottery, which we need to research. We can probably research Agri-BW-Pottery and finish before the workers chop the forest (if we chop first). One worker can also continue roading W for a 3rd city instead.
I am ok with you playing soon, but I would also want us to try brokering peace with Gandhi by offering our techs. There is no way to know what he will accept without offering it since he will ask for StP for peace. So I'd try offering writing, then writing+our other techs. And then Math when if he gets writing himself etc.
I guess we could go for some elepult if we want to get him early, but we must remember that we cannot kill him off completely, so the cities will have to endure homeland yearning, and we still do not know just how far we have to walk to get there, or if he is even on the same landmass altogether.pnp_dredd said:
You left out sailing-calendar, which looks really useful given the resources we see. I think we need sailing regardless, for the lighthouse in Moscow.pnp_dredd said:
That is actually a very good point. With all negative multipliers we will have lots of wars. Even when we make peace it is a good chance we will declared a lot. If some AI will build the SoZ we might have a problem... but we need to check the mechanics of SoZ.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
A short TS splitted so we can start plan the cities seems good to me.
I propose to reverse the research to BW-Agri.
In fact, our worker is now busy scrubbing and the other roading the path for city 3.
We will benefit more if we know where copper is than to farm the rice, since we can't do it (or is better to not do it) immediately. Also, we must run a turn at 0, so no way to have both techs for the break.
I think that pottey-sailing are needed, then we can start plan with an eye to the mid game.
SoZ
A better understanding of how it works for the AIs can be useful, but for sure it hurts badly the human, more with this scenario.
This is why i propose to build it, even if usually don't. It also has a bonus for gold, which we have.
I propose to reverse the research to BW-Agri.
In fact, our worker is now busy scrubbing and the other roading the path for city 3.
We will benefit more if we know where copper is than to farm the rice, since we can't do it (or is better to not do it) immediately. Also, we must run a turn at 0, so no way to have both techs for the break.
I think that pottey-sailing are needed, then we can start plan with an eye to the mid game.
SoZ
A better understanding of how it works for the AIs can be useful, but for sure it hurts badly the human, more with this scenario.
This is why i propose to build it, even if usually don't. It also has a bonus for gold, which we have.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Fluroscent
Emperor
That is definitely not true. The worker is scrubbing a useless plains tile, so it can be stopped (and it should, to do something else, agri or not), and 1 turn of 0%, and four turns of research is enough to get agri+BW for a 5 turn set. Edit: Checked the numbers. We need 244BLubmuz said:
, and can produce 328 in four turns of 100% research with our current setup. Knowing the location of copper is not going to impact any decisions from turn 3 to 5, while agri will allow earlier rice, meaning an economic boost. So Agri-BW is best.
Maybe that is one of the reasons the gold is there. Maybe they saw in the test games that without SoZ the human is in deep trouble...
pnp_dredd
civ junkie
Revised worker plan:
Worker1 completes road (this is enough road if we are settling city3 1 N of the lake) then moves to chop the riverside forest.
Worker2 scrubs for 1 turn, then moves to irrigate the rice.
Worker3 assist irrigating the rice
I'll stick with Ag-BW: there's no advantage in having BW one turn earlier, however having the rice irrigated one turn earlier will give an advantage.
yup.
If Ghandi will give us a peace treaty, I'll stop my set immediately because we may have tech trading options.
I've edited my post to include this
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
You can't do it, we don't have BW
But if we decide to settle between the lake and the cows, you need to scrub there. No road. So, after the road on desert, move on the city site to scrub it.
Mine was a proposal to satisfy a curiosity, more than a tactical move. Good for the rest, go on!
pnp_dredd
civ junkie
You can't do it, we don't have BW
But if we decide to settle between the lake and the cows, you need to scrub there. No road. So, after the road on desert, move on the city site to scrub it.
duh. *smacks forehead*
OK so what do I do with this worker? Clearing the next city site is definitely the logical step, so do we have consensus on the location?
Is everyone set on settling 1N on the lake? It's a decent production city when working grassland cows, 2 elephant plains and two grassland hills, and can utilize the shared fish to grow quickly.
Another option is 1W of the cows, which lacks freshwater, doesn't get the shared fish+gold, has 1 less hill, has 1 more grassland, and gains 3 fogged tiles.
I've attached a screenie for consideration. Note that every tile outside our borders has fallout: I just took the screenie when it was faded to better show the underlying terrain. The tiles which are fallout-free in the screenie are the gold, and the forest south of the gold (and the eastern silk, i.e. the very bottom right tile under the scores).
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