SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[beestar]

Hi BLubmuz,

The +50% hammers from IMP are included in my calculation. If you only want to build one settler and then Wealth for the rest of the game, then chopping into it makes sense. If you want to build the settler and then anything else afterward, then sooner or later you have to produce the same total number of hammers. The hammers that go into the settler are IMP-enhanced, the hammers that go to "anything else" are not enhanced - it doesn't matter where the hammers come from (chopping or slowbuild).

It's might not be clear in my verbal argument, but the math works - please feel free to check my calculation and prove me wrong

For this game, the implication is that we don't need to save our chops for settlers, we can just put them into whatever we need now.

 

[Fluroscent]

Beestar is correct. We gain nothing in particular from chopping into settlers/libraries. Settlers and libraries are discounted, yes, but that discount "multiplies" any hammers we produce, so there are no extra to be made.

However, there is an exception, which is overflow. Using chop overflow on discounted builds, we will get the bonus on the next build too, actually saving hammers.

Examples are easy to construct. Say we have a 30 chop completed, and we have two builds to make - Both 60, but one with a 100% discount.
If we build the discounted one first, the chop will produce 60, and we have 60 left to complete the builds.
If we build the non-discounted one first, the chop will be 30, and we will still have 60 left to complete the builds. No difference.

If the builds were 30 though, the chop would produce enough hammers by building the discounted build first to complete both builds. And if we chose the non-discounted one, we would be 15 short. So that is the extreme case where we could gain half a chops worth of hammers.

That discussion, however, is quite irrelevant, since we are not looking to build a settler soon, and delaying the chops is a bad idea - We gain from finishing all the builds we plan in Moscow quicker (particularly the first - into workers!), and we want to build cottages asap on the grassland under the forests.
It is something to remember for later, and not something I usually do, but it is a neat high-level trick that we can gain from later.

 

[unclethrill]

I can play in about 15 to 18 hours if this is good now





Research

Alpha (6) ->Masonry (1) -> Construction (7) -> HBR (5)

Worker builds

Wake all workers! Except the ones building pasture


Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to phants SW of CI. Clean FO, camp and road. Worker on forest should chop->cottage
Workers 1 & 4 to farm the grass tile N of silk

Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to phants W of CI. Clean FO, camp and road.Keep the worker at Moscow there, and send one of the newly built
Workers 1 & 4 Mine at StP.

Workers 1 begin road to DeGuille if it can be done safely. As indicated by numbered path.
Workers 2 & 3 & 5 to Clear mine tiles

Cities

Moscow
Finish Axe -> Worker ->Worker ->Granary -> Temple/Monastary (order depending on how fast we grow) -> Stable-> Chariot (5XP now for MEDIC) -> Phants

StP
Granary -> resume barracks -> Catapults

CI

Finish Granary -> Barracks -> Cats


Diplomacy

Get OB with G if possible.

Get peace with All except DeGuille and Stalin.
Don't trade CoL ever. Never, Ever, Ever!
Other techs are open for trade if the opportunity arises. Stop to check with team before making trades

 

[Fluroscent]

OK, still a few things you didn't mention though. You might have read and agreed, but I think it is nicer to mention everything you plan to do in the PPP, to avoid misunderstanding.

-The missionary scouting
-The chariots moves, and the uses for the new axe
-The uses of the newly built workers, one good way to use them is to road the tiles that are going to be worked by more than 1 worker, to save workerturns. Best is if you make sure that they help improve the tiles that we can work immediately.
-The MM involving sharing the fish tile between Moscow and CI.

One more comment on the posted PPP now, which is BLubmuz excellent point that we can save worker turns by building the road on the ivory tile before moving all the workers on it. I don't remember how many turns there is left on the pasture, but if possible, it might be worth it to have one of them move to road the ivory immediately. Not a big deal though, often we get improvements faster by stacking workers, but do try to save worker turns where possible.

 

[BLubmuz]

No great objections, just this:
this is a space game, where war is (more than usual) a component.
But first of all is a science game.

If we can spare research turns (6) by trading CoL to G for Alpha would be a great advantage. I'm sure we can regret to have spent so many turns on a tech we can trade for.
Same for HBR: is a dead end tech, if not for phants. IMO axes and cats can do a good job. Better waste some hammer in suicide axes (a lot cheaper than phants) or cats than invest 5 turns on a useless (space-wise) tech.

 

[unclethrill]

Well I agree with Blubz on the trading for Alphabet.

I think that we need to feed as much tech to the AI as we can so that we have trading partners through most of the game. This will speed up our research in the long run.

From the limited tests that I ran, IIRC, we can research Alpha and by T92ish we can trade for peace with most everyone and get OB with G. We can also then trade for techs with all the AI and back fill some of our holes. We will end up giving more than we get to each one but overall we will end up with more value.
Also, if we wait to let G trade us Alpha, we can have it around T94ish. We can still get all the same techs and peace.
The real interesting part was that it really was about a wash. If we trade for Alpha we have time to research IW by T100. If we research Alpha we can trade for IW. And in both situations, we get Const, HBR and Masonry along with the traded for techs. So either way is fine and about the same.

Either way, I think we need to be willing to trade anything CoL and Math or below in order to gather up as much of the AI techs as possible.

AS far as the other issues go:

-The missionary scouting Sure I forgot about that but he will scout the NW.
-The chariots moves, and the uses for the new axe The chariot to the NW will scout along the water edge and the SW one will likely be dead as soon as the TS starts. IIRC he is sitting right next to the stack with no movement left. Before I can do anything with him he will fight and likely die. I'll try to save him but no guarantees.
-The uses of the newly built workers, one good way to use them is to road the tiles that are going to be worked by more than 1 worker, to save worker turns. Best is if you make sure that they help improve the tiles that we can work immediately. I will do my best MM with all the workers.
-The MM involving sharing the fish tile between Moscow and CI. CI will use this for growth at least most of the TS. Moscow will grow to its caps without it just fine.


So can I get a thumbs up or thumbs down on my current PPP. I wil have time to play in about 5 hours if I can get clear approval. Otherwise I may or may not have time to play before Sunday.

 

[Fluroscent]

About trading for alpha: We cannot rely on the testsave, since there Gandhi is annoyed with Mao, and thus will make him his worst enemy once we get +2/3 trade bonus. In the real game he is only cautious with Mao, so he is probably not likely to get rid of the worst enemy predicament as easily. And if we cannot trade for it, we have to do it ourselves anyway, only then we will not have the advantage that we do not sacrifice other stuff (workers/growth) to build axes that have only the purpose of defending in a war we need not fight.

HBR is necessary for us to wage war on France in a meaningful way. Obviously We believe that the investment is worth it. Trading for it in time will be impossible, since Gandhi is very unlikely to have it (he is Gandhi after all..). So we have to research it, or shift gears entirely to a non-war until Oxford approach.

SW one will likely be dead as soon as the TS starts. IIRC he is sitting right next to the stack with no movement left. Before I can do anything with him he will fight and likely die. I'll try to save him but no guarantees.

It is not moved, so it should not die. We have to move it away from the stack. And maybe the stack will follow, which is good, or it will break and go for our mainland, which is fine too since we will have peace before it gets there. Either way, I think we should peek around France to locate cities/resources before the war etc.

CI will use this for growth at least most of the TS. Moscow will grow to its caps without it just fine.

There might be a few turns where Moscow is building workers, and CI has cows available. It is best to have CI work cows and Moscow work fish then, to get the bureau bonus on the coastal commerce (and to speed workers, which is definitely good). Otherwise, you are probably correct, Moscow will grow just fine. (minor point, but hey, are we going for laurels or what? )

OK on the plan then (as long as it is the alpha first tech plan ). And in case you missed my point in an earlier post, IF we should get that far, DO NOT put any beakers into Iron Working. It would be a waste. Ending the set at HBR or when something unexpected happens is what I would prefer.

 

[unclethrill]

So my next question is, what are we willing to trade for peace? Alpha, CoL, Math?? I'm pretty sure that it will take Alpha to get peace.

I know any lesser techs are okay as long as we give as little as possible but are any of these 3 up for peace and/or trade fodder?

 

[BLubmuz]

The main and pressing problem is to make peace before the English stack arrives too close to our borders.

So, we have time to research Masonry-Construction, with a switch to Alpha if UT can't have it in trade.

If the chariot can move, he can lure the stack in a direction far from our lands and buy time for us to self research Alpha if we can't trade for it.

So, i propose to research M-C, being ready to switch to Alpha if needed.
Having the chance to monitor the (potential) invaders is a great advantage.

Remember, we can regret those 6 turns spent. They can be the difference between a laurel and the usual middle-of-the-pack.

For the rest, the plan and the refinements are OK.

edit
on another issue, i don't see the phants so crucial for our French war.
They cost like a cat and don't do collateral. A good stack of cats +axes can do a respectable job saving us 5 turns of research on a dead end tech.

IW is in the path to Astro and probably we can't trade for it with pissed AIs. Better plan to research it, maybe after Currency. Knowing where iron is can be a side benefit more the production bonus than for units.

 

[beestar]

-The chariots moves, and the uses for the new axe The chariot to the NW will scout along the water edge and the SW one will likely be dead as soon as the TS starts. IIRC he is sitting right next to the stack with no movement left. Before I can do anything with him he will fight and likely die. I'll try to save him but no guarantees.

Give me some credit, I left him with some moves left

About what we're willing to trade for peace: as I understand it, you plan to pause after Alpha anyway (maybe a brief survey to see what they would accept for peace, without committing?).

I understand that it's possible to delay Alpha as long as we can keep distracting the stack, but I still don't like the idea of big gifts to Gandhi to receive Alpha. If we're going to trade away CoL to Gandhi, we should trade it to everyone, to maximize the trade value of the tech, and reduce the ability of Gandhi himself to swap CoL to others. I would prefer to use a self-teched Alpha instead to serve as that "trade-all-around" tech. (Or, more likely, trade around Alpha to get peace with everyone, then trade around Math or CoL to pick up the AI techs).

We can keep the high value techs to pick up bigger techs from the AI later, accelerating (our) tech pace.

I say thumbs up for the PPP with Alpha first that unclethrill wrote above - let's rock!

 

[unclethrill]

Okay so as I see it:

We have 2 votes for the PPP with the research Alpha, mason, const, HBR planning to use phants to attack france.
We have 1 vote for changing the research path to Mason, const and trade whatever we can for Alpha.

Here is my compromise proposal:

1. Switch to Alpha research immediately
2. Give CoL and Math to G immediately. Next turn G should offer OB
3. Get OB with G.
4. Trade Currency to G for Alpha and Masonry.
5. Next turn Get peace with Mao, Church and Roos by giving them Alpha
6. Start Const on T87. Finish on T93.
7 Start HBR on T93. Finish on T97
8. Trade HBR & Const to G for IW, Monarchy & his money.

I know this is a radical proposal but non-radical plans = non-winning plans.

The original plans get us Alphabet, Masonry, HBR, Const and possibly OB with G by T100

My plan should net Alphabet, Masonry, HBR, Const, Monarchy & IW along with OB with G by T97.


Tear it a part and shoot it down or agree that it is a viable solution. Either way I'll hold off on playing until we get a bit more of a consensus on what to do.

 

[BLubmuz]

UT, your plan sounds interesting, but we give away 2 valuable techs to G.
We'll keep our tech lead only with CS.
But probably is the right thing to do in a competition like this.

No waste of beakers is the key for laurels. My only concern is that if G have a fallouted land we need to war with him too, but this can wait.

He's probably shooting for Theology, that religious maniac.

 

[Fluroscent]

I know this is a radical proposal but non-radical plans = non-winning plans.

Well, I originally suggested trying to trade for alpha, which was shot down So I am of course willing to work that way again. And just for the meta planning (radical > non-radical), sometimes (actually, often!) the winning team is the one with the most simple plan. But all this is nonsense compared to us figuring out how to best win the game the fastest. How is that for simple

I agree on the new plan UT, after all, I did state that I was not too concerned about advancing the AI tech pace. A couple of notes though:

1. Switch to Alpha research immediately

Agree, but since we plan to trade for it - set the slider to 0%!

2. Give CoL and Math to G immediately. Next turn G should offer OB

CoL might be enough! So start with that, and give Math next turn if it is not enough.
G will offer OB and tech trade IF he no longer considers us his worst enemy.

4. Trade Currency to G for Alpha and Masonry.

But contingent on the tech gifts working or not - The fallback plan must be to crank up the slider and research alpha ourselves. Oh and if the trade works, don't forget to crank up the slider afterwards.

5. Next turn Get peace with Mao, Church and Roos by giving them Alpha

We might get peace cheaper than alpha. We should do that if possible.

8. Trade HBR & Const to G for IW, Monarchy & his money.

I prefer to save this for the next set, so we can discuss the value of such a trade with more information available. HBR and Construction are dangerous military techs to pass around if we plan to war further for instance. Monarchy is also something to not be too liberal about passing around, as it will speed the AI's push for longbows.

He's probably shooting for Theology, that religious maniac.

Speaking of which - We might have enough EPs soon to actually see what he is researching. Do keep an eye on it in case it might alter our plans.

One more thing concerning city builds:

While we have consensus on the builds, we might run into a mismatch of production speed and tech speed. I.e. we want to build something but don't have the tech ready yet. If so:

See how many turns are left before we have the tech and if we can fit one of these builds in first:
-An axe, for stack defense
-A workboat, for scouting
-A chariot, to MP CI (and free the axe)

It is important to not delay our main builds, so don't start anything that will take longer than the tech to arrive.
If there are extra turns with nothing to build, just build wealth or alternatively research if that will speed the tech turnwise.

 

[beestar]

Well, if you guys are all for trading for Alpha then I'll go along. Getting Gandhi happy is useful.

Step 1 is getting Gandhi friendly (non worst enemy) with us. We should give him as little as possible - is Math cheaper than CoL? Could a gift of just Pottery be enough?

We can part-research Alpha if that's what it takes to trade Math for Alpha.

DeGaulle has Nationalism and Roosevelt has Constitution, but they won't be able to trade them to Gandhi until Gandhi gets Philo

 

[BLubmuz]

UT, I misread your points 2 and 4.

CoL and Math only to have G willing to trade are too much. Math alone, or pottery alone or both, but no more. Then we can use CoL for Alpha and maybe Currency later.

Please try to test this alternative.
A good idea can be that you start playing after your tests, then you shortly report the news so we can go straight to the end of your TS with informed decisions.

It goes without saying that, after the (hopefully) successful trade for Alpha you will contact the AIs (not dG and Stalin) to see what they will accept for peace and report this too.

I'm sure that at least the ones who posted in this page will be eagerly awaiting your report, so we can keep the ball rolling.

And yes, Beestar posted that he left all the units with movements.

 

[Fluroscent]

It goes without saying that, after the (hopefully) successful trade for Alpha you will contact the AIs (not dG and Stalin) to see what they will accept for peace and report this too.

The problem is that the AI will probably ask for a city for peace, and the only way to find out if they will take techs is to offer it... Which means that we cannot see what they will accept before they actually accept it. That is why I want to offer the cheapest tech possible and then work our way upwards until they accept. But we can never get a "X will accept writing+masonry should we take it?" situation. It will be "X accepted writing+masonry for peace".

There is also the option of offering gold.. I would only consider this if we otherwise had to give up CoL/Currency for peace. We don't want to slow our own research to get peace, better give the AI a bit more then.
Example: we can get peace for a masonry and 10 gold, or we can get peace for alpha. We should then make peace for alpha, since we are not hurting ourselves that way.

CoL and Math only to have G willing to trade are too much. Math alone, or pottery alone or both, but no more.

I can accept this compromise, which I assume means we gift pottery+math immediately (just pottery won't do), then see next turn if it was enough, and if not -> self tech alpha instead of gifting CoL too.

By the way, choosing between CoL and Currency to offer in trade -> offer CoL. Currency is generally a greater boost to the AI. So offer CoL for alpha+whatever else he will give if possible (masonry + maybe archery+gold).

 

[BLubmuz]

You're right, but i rely on UT's ability to test.

And you made a good point on the chance to have masonry in trade.
Should we research Poly instead? it's in the path to Literature.

 

[Fluroscent]

Should we research Poly instead? it's in the path to Literature.

Good point, but poly might be available too. We can just run 0% the turn we have to wait if trading for alpha instead.

 

[unclethrill]

The bottom line here is that we need a +3 trade relation with G in order to get OB and trades from him. Giving anything less than Math and CoL will only get +1. This won't be enough.

If we aren't willing to give up these techs then I think we need to just stick with the original plan. Self-research alpha and accept that G isn't going to trade with us in this TS.

Honestly, getting to our SS fast isn't going to be the limiting factor in this game. Clearing FO is what will be the long pole in our plan.

 

[beestar]

UT, +3 total relations, or +3 relative to the -5 where we are now (i.e. -2)?

Yeah, I realized that FO cleaning problem in my turnset - there's a lot of fallout. I think BLubmuz did the calculation earlier in the thread, and it was a hell of a lot of worker turns. It would be useful to update that calculation based on the number of tiles we can see. Are there any tricks? The only thing I can think of is to really ramp up cleaning after Steam Power, where we get +50% worker effectiveness.