SGOTM 12 - Ivan

[Nitfan]

Who else is on the team? I think glenmetz is playing too, but I'm not sure.

I agree let's let Larkin start. He seems to have put the most thought into this at this point. I'll second the ships/warriors. We need to see what we have on our hands before we speculate anymore.

I think we need atleast 2 curraghs minimum.

 

[nerovats]

Needs more the 2 curaghs but with one city will have to choose. Get few for exploring, then build several workers wil get us to 12 fast. Decide wether to build SoZ or not. With 7 fpt it will take 18 turns to get 6 workers, then some time to get 12-14 tiles improved (maybe some extra to be able to switch tiles, prevent waste). At least keep 1 for roading jungle, or maybe get a colony for something. Size 12 is productive but on deity we will need luxes to keep people happy.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I'll try it tonight. We'll see how successful I am

Ivan starts and our plan is fine with me

Why didnt' I do it before? busy... didnt think of it

In any case, we wouldn't start collosus in the first turn set - getting up to size 12, defending ourselves and getting currags out are much more important.

btw - I don't think we should send ground exploreres out until we have build MP's, curraghs and enough workers - if we aren't alone, we'll find out by 3500 BC or so, i think. If we are, then we have plenty of time to see what's out there, and no reason to rush.

btw - with 30 civs, 6 ivory is not all the ivory in the world. No way.

 

[I. Larkin]

OK, I will start now, and if nothing terrible happen will play 20 turns.
I hope that IW will come in 30-33 turns. Who have best experience in trade?
Will we play 20 each at first round?

 

[I. Larkin]

Who else is on the team? I think glenmetz is playing too, but I'm not sure.

I agree let's let Larkin start. He seems to have put the most thought into this at this point. I'll second the ships/warriors. We need to see what we have on our hands before we speculate anymore.

I think we need atleast 2 curraghs minimum.

glenmetz checked in early today.
Proposed Roster is
I. Larkin
Nitfan
nerovats
glenmetz
A. Teller
I offer 20 turns each, because of
experience of SGTOM5 (OCC build). Initial stage was very boring.
But we had no curraghs. So may be 10 after, as usual will be better.

 

[glenmetz]

I am here, sorry if I haven't checked in yet, but I think I did make a post about my thoughts a while ago. If the AI can't build settlers and starts with 10 units, we need to defend and build for an attack first. Or we'll get overrun.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

20 is fine with me.

I know that if something really weird comes up in my play turns (like, i try to research literature and for some reason CivAssist says it takes 3000 beakers), or one of the tweaks is that Bizmark can build panzers with construction... I'll stop and get some thoughts. Assuming the panzers havent' killed me in the IBT, of course...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

ok - I created a quick .biq with 30 civs on a standard map, no one can create settlers until nuclear power, deity.

I found the following:

1) Other civs plop down 2nd cities very near you.
2) seafaring civs throw curraghs out near immediately.
3) Other alphabet civs throw curraghs out quickly, too.
4) Collosus got built in 2800 BC,which is faster than I've seen it build on anything but maybe Sid.
5) Iron Working started showing up in 2510 - I had just picked a start, so didnt' have the enormous commerce bonuses, plus I started in despotism, plus didnt' set myself up with extra units, so my research was much, much slower than ours will be.

I think we would be fine with either IW or writing as a first research, as long as we go 100% we should get a good trade opportunity.

Note: I saw curraghs from England, Spain (at least3!), Scandanivia, India, Carthage and Japan. We may need curraghs to just not get buried by techs.

No wars that I can see yet, though.

Wierdly, in 2190 BC, I find the aztecs who don't have alphabet yet!! Even with my crappy research

by 2150, a bunch of people have writing, but I'm still able to make trades for all the starting techs, plus math, writing and mysticism, plus probably horsey riding if I can swing it.

Based on this, I would say a run on either writing or iron working makes sense - also, we need at least 2, probably 3 and maybe 4 - I found 18 out of 30 civs in 2150.

one other thing - I didn't get the extra 10 units, so I am amazingly weak and no one has as much as tested my borders.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I tried another one... got ivory and a lake, no food. Was able to research and get writing nearly first and traded for BW, IW, WC, Pottery, Wheel, HB, CB,Myst, Math. Missed getting philo 1st, but was able to trade it and others for Polytheism. spain had managed to get way ahead of everyone.

I easily got SoZ and again saw little war, though russia got taken out pretty early by someone.

We *can* get SoZ, and probably should - AC's are the best AA units out there
at 23 SP (what I see we can get right off), it takes us just 9 turns, and at size 12, which we want to be for research, we will only have 13 free units.

And in feudalism, extra units cost 3 GPT, which is a lot.

One thing I have noticed is that the AI starts running into the problems they run into on Sid - unit costs
start choking them. And once they have to pay for extra units, they will move their science slider to
40-50%.

I am thinking that our research is either IW/Writing, trade to catch up, Philo, taking Construction, Lit....

btw - I agree with SE, worker road, s, irri, road, to other cow, irri, road, then irrigate/road the other ivory.

Once we are size 12, we should be able to keep up with the other AI fairly easily in research, since most of them won;t be able to get above size 6 until construction (not a lot of fresh water...)

 

[nerovats]

Sound like we got a better chance then I thought. The AI works in misterious ways. Trading will be possible so keep science as high as possible. To answer Ivans question about trading skills, I still my weakest point. I think we should stop playing and ask for advice from team whenever we get a new tech, as that will be the key in this game. Must find trade-off in giving/trading AI techs to increase tech-speed, without losing controll and falling behind.

 

[I. Larkin]

Good news:
We are at science leadership, but Greeks even better??
We are in isolated Island and have horses, and 3 Lux.
Bad news: We have no monopoly on Ivory.
French have Super-City Paris.

No plan survive when face reality.
I move settler and found third Cattle! With this we can have 10 fpt+, but need more workers to improve.
Turn Year Worker Comments Contacts and Trade
2 3900*BC "Woker finished"*road
3 3850*BC "Woker finished"*move
4 3800*BC wokerwork[4]
5 3750*BC wokerwork[5]
6 3700*BC "Woker finished"*road Size 2
7 3650*BC wokerwork[7] Curragh Meet Atcteks
8 3600*BC wokerwork[8] Meet Romans
9 3550*BC wokerwork[9] Meet Indians
10 3500*BC "Woker finished"*irrigate WarriorSize 3
11 3450*BC "Woker finished"*move Culture border expand, to Atzecs Alphabet +10 gold for WC+ CB +Potteryto Roman BW for 13 g
12 3400*BC wokerwork[12] Warrior[2] Meet japan, Meet Maya
13 3350*BC wokerwork[13] Size 4
14 3300*BC wokerwork[14] Curragh[2] Meet portugalTo japan Alpha + gpt+8 for wheel. To Maya Wheel + Alpha +CB for Masonary + 1 gMasonary to japan for 28 g
15 3250*BC "Woker finished"*irrigate
16 3200*BC wokerwork[16] Size 4, worker
17 3150*BC wokerwork[17] French Finish Colosus.
18 3100*BC "Woker finished"*road Curragh[3]
19 3050*BC Woker move to Ivory irigate Size 4, worker
20 3000*BC
21 2950*BC W[1],w[2],w[3] move irrigate last Cow.
Next turn we grow size 5 and get Chariot. Just hit enter. We may change to Spear or Archer if wish. Worker will finish Cattel and we will have 10 fpt+, 2 turn worker factory. But probably better to build 1 more Curragh to be Size 6. Micromanage!!, because after grow, worker City relocate tiles. Colony, when size 6, and second, when size 7. Dunno, how much workers we need?? What to build next? Temple? Granary? Or start SOZ. Really, we have nothing to pre-build. French will build Pyramids soon I think.

Top five in inverse order. 3950, 3850, 3150

 

[I. Larkin]

pdf turnlog

 

[nerovats]

Good set. Opened save seems we're doing ok.

I'd prefer an archer or spear over a chariot.

Paris just finished Colossus so we could get SoZ, other cities we've met are small, and the ones with ivory won't be a threat. Then we should build workers from now on with just curaghs to grow back in pop. Or do we want to cover our colonies with units? If someone finishes piramids we should have traded for something else to use as prebuild.

 

[I. Larkin]

Sound like we got a better chance then I thought. The AI works in misterious ways. Trading will be possible so keep science as high as possible. To answer Ivans question about trading skills, I still my weakest point. I think we should stop playing and ask for advice from team whenever we get a new tech, as that will be the key in this game. Must find trade-off in giving/trading AI techs to increase tech-speed, without losing controll and falling behind.

Well, turns was very intensive. Any turn decision "to trade or not", and tough Micro. Rule is: new tile jump to Forest.
About trade: Really, we can't stop each turn. The only remedy is play 10 turns each afterwards.
In this game I allwas trade if resonable, We are not going to kill them all.
Next, I think, if somebody will reseach IW we have to buy it. And trade around. or not, If nothing.
I assume Japan/Atztek our first target, so they are potential enemies.
About SoZ. Yes, it is resonable to take it ASAP, but we have to start Mathematics at least.
I assume we build
Curragh, Worker, Worker, Temple
Keep 10 FPT.
and if Pyro / Oracle will be possible start SoZ. Another option to pospone it after Writing: we will have Lighthouse, GLIb or Mavsoleum as backup. writing also will let embassies, to see Japan/Atztek SoZ.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

We should be able to wait on Math until we can trade for it. I cannot imagine any other site has 3 cows and fresh water - we should be able to build SoZ in 9, maybe 8 turns. I'm not worried about not having a monopoly on Ivory, unless France or Korea have it - they will probably be the first to research Math -they usually are, for some reason. Even then, they will probably have their 2nd city build SoZ. Worry will be if they cascade, of course...

Can we get some screenies? or is it ok for us to download the .sav and take a look when not our turn?

What we will quickly find is that 1/2 or more of the civs will be worthless for research.

If we have our own island, we might want to focus on getting SoZ and GLighthouse. Pretty much nothing else is of much use -well, HG might be, and MoM would help us with happiness... but MoM will give us a GA, which we may or may not want.

I am happy to have Greece be strong - in fact, we might want to encourage greek strength, giving us someone to research with. It would be nice to not have to research all the MA and IA techs.

 

[I. Larkin]

Yes, you can (and have to) download and look at sav file. (But not play).
Japan and Atzteks have Ivory, and unlikely that anybody else
I do not understad History of the world pop up:
We have tech pariy with known civs, but even did not get ito the list. May be they will have something soon. Also Grrek and Arabs. But they far away.

 

[I. Larkin]

Sound like we got a better chance then I thought. The AI works in misterious ways. Trading will be possible so keep science as high as possible. To answer Ivans question about trading skills, I still my weakest point. I think we should stop playing and ask for advice from team whenever we get a new tech, as that will be the key in this game. Must find trade-off in giving/trading AI techs to increase tech-speed, without losing controll and falling behind.

Good to remember. Who will play second turnset and what build now : Spear, Archer or Chariot? (For MP and "defence")

 

[AutomatedTeller]

nerovats is up now - he's got the save.

Did you notice that that first cow is on a BG even more shields.

We are going to have to clear a couple of jungle tiles, unfortunately, to get 12 workable tiles. Ah well.

 

[glenmetz]

I think we should build some units, remember, all of our enemies start with 10. Once we get up to size 10 or so, work on SoZ.

 

[I. Larkin]

I think we should build some units, remember, all of our enemies start with 10. Once we get up to size 10 or so, work on SoZ.

Disagree. we are "allowed" 12 unints We will have more only before war.
Real war will start when we or agessor will get Map Making.