TimBentley
Deity
We need 800bpt to get refining or steel faster than 9 or 8 turns respectively, so I'd suggest refining next to let the economy improve longer in order to research steel in 7 turns. Extra commerce from the oil would be nice too.
SGOTM 12 - klarius
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Well, I looked into the save.
I see a few small problems
.
RP will probably come from the AI only in 40 turns. I checked back the turn logs and it doesn't look like any AI was really set up for it before the beginning of NPs set.
We will need less than 40 turns for the techs through flight (1,8,9,9,10 with our current research rate, but that should get a bit better, so I think 34-35 turns in total).
So what to do
- options:
2. AT is about 3 turns worth of research more expensive than the techs we could get instead - not better than 1.
3. could be done in 4 turns - even that is a bit short and we may still have to wait for RP. But cavs in 5 turns from now doesn't sound bad
. OTOH the AI might just come up with it any turn (or not at all).
4. 7 turns currently - police stations probably get enough benefit to make it break even or gain a turn, even if we should end up one turn late for flight.
5. one can hope, but then we probably don't know what to do in 35 turns.
Any opinions ?
BTW, I got it and think I'll play tomorrow.
Edit:
I think, I'll go for the military tradition option, if there is no strong opposition.
Worst case it wastes 4 turns, but it will help quite a bit in wars.
I see a few small problems
.RP will probably come from the AI only in 40 turns. I checked back the turn logs and it doesn't look like any AI was really set up for it before the beginning of NPs set.
We will need less than 40 turns for the techs through flight (1,8,9,9,10 with our current research rate, but that should get a bit better, so I think 34-35 turns in total).
So what to do
- options:- forget about AI research and self research RP
- delay ToE and self research AT
- research military tradition now
- research communism now
- just hope that an AI started RP earlier than I think
2. AT is about 3 turns worth of research more expensive than the techs we could get instead - not better than 1.
3. could be done in 4 turns - even that is a bit short and we may still have to wait for RP. But cavs in 5 turns from now doesn't sound bad
. OTOH the AI might just come up with it any turn (or not at all). 4. 7 turns currently - police stations probably get enough benefit to make it break even or gain a turn, even if we should end up one turn late for flight.
5. one can hope, but then we probably don't know what to do in 35 turns.
Any opinions ?
BTW, I got it and think I'll play tomorrow.
Edit:
I think, I'll go for the military tradition option, if there is no strong opposition.
Worst case it wastes 4 turns, but it will help quite a bit in wars.
Mighty Dwaarf
Ginger Beast
I can't confidently commit the time for about another week so I'll wait till my turn comes round again.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
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Am I right to assume that we plan to win the game the turn after we enter the MA, with a UN pre-build, a trade for Fission if it isn't our own free tech, and so on? If so, I think we should be tough-minded and reject any plan that would be slower than just waiting for RP. If I understand the nuances of Klarius's post, that means that self-researching MilTrad would be the remaining alternative which would give us the most options, and that's my preference. [Written before I noticed Klarius's edit--great minds think alike. ]
]TimBentley
Deity
Greece and Germany got nationalism at the start of the IA, so they should have started on RP at the start of Wotan's turns.
TimBentley
Deity
I'll be out until Monday.
The save
Played 13 turns, to get us over some cliffs and have an even turn.
Portugal is no more. We researched MT and Steel and got AT and elx from (correctly timed
) ToE.
Constantinople has military academy.
We have 5 cav armies (20 cities) and if we should get more cities Constantinople can build a new army in 4 turns.
Turn log:
Turn 0:
I'm still not believing that the AI is already on RP since more than 10 turns. The ones getting nationalism had it before electricity and by that should have chosen another research. So my plan is for MT.
This doesn't fit with ToE (no research option would fit) in Paris, so I change to knight there.
As consequence, I don't want a real war in the next 5 turns. Constantinople changes to coal plant and will prebuild for military academy then.
But I want one more phony war, to increase the chances for broken allinces.
I declare on Carthage. Then I do several alliances against our three enemies, including with Portuguese in the hope they will be broken.
IBT:
Wow, that was quick (a bit too quick really), Portuguese declare war because they break the alliance versus Celts. So it will not be quite the peaceful turn set I intended.
Turn 1 830:
Kill everything killable around Delhi. Lose a knight and an AC to a redlined killer knight.
Pop-rush barracks in Delhi.
Do a few more allinces against Portugal.
Constantinople coal plant->BM as prebuild.
IBT:
Portuguese bypass Delhi.
Turn 2 840:
MM a bit. No war actions.
IBT:
Portuguese run around headlessly. But they land 4 units near Ta-Tu.
Turn 3 850:
Kill Portuguese units around Delhi and get a leader->army.
Kill Portuguese around Ta-tu
IBT:
Portugal land another few units near Ta-tu.
Romans attack Bombay killing one of the defenders.
Turn 4 860:
Get a leader near Ta-tu -> army.
Capture Bombay.
IBT:
MT completes->steel. Upgrade knights. Switch over academy prebuild.
Constantinople academy->army.
Turn 5 870:
Fill 2 armies with cavs.
I still don't reach 800 beakers.
Turn 6 880:Capture Lisbon nearly losing one of our shiny new cav armies to a killer musket.
But the other takes only scratches eliminating the rest.
Now I have over 800 beakers. Paris goes to ToE to complete together with steel.
Turn 7 890:
Lisbon has messed up several cities wrt corruption
. Try to fix stuff, but it doesn't really work nice. Another problem is pollution in Paris and Constantinople. This problem will persist to the end of the game.
Turn 8 900:
Kill a few Portuguese near Orleans.
Turn 9 910:
Move units.
Turn 10 920:
Do a few new trades. Not much more. I play to a nice breakpoint.
Turn 11 930:
Navigation is around. Buy and trade maps.
Capture Oporto and destroy Portugal.
IBT:
Steel finishes.
ToE built in Paris. AT and elx.
Turn 12 940:
Get a leader in the battles against Koreans. Build army.
Disband MDI army. There is an army completing in Constantinople and that would be over our allowance.
Turn 13 950:
A nice turn (dividable by 10). Don't do much. Only minor trades and killing a few Koreans.
We have three cav armies in former Portugal and 2 in America.
I'm still hoping that America will declare by breaking an alliance.
I don't want to break alliances if not necessary, so I kept the war with Korea. The majority of Korean forces are already gone, so defending should be no big problem.
We have currently 20 cities, we would like 34 or at least 30.
I think America is high on the list then soon Spain. At some time we have to go down to the southern island. We probably don't need all sci civs, so we could also think of taking out Korea or Persia. I'm not so eager to go after the isolated civs, as they probably have lots of units running around.
Research is on refining. We are now over 800 beakers/turn but will probably not manage the next step, so research will be 7 to complete refining 8 for combustion, 9 for flight and 7 each for mass production and motorized transport.
This means we have still to wait a few turns for RP, if the AI started it when I think they did.
I didn't sell industrialism and we should probably continue to not do it. If we don't get enough cities we at least have the 800sh US prebuild (which can also be used in the capital). And please don't build this wonder.
There is music theory around, but I don't see a reason to get it.
We have lots of gpt payments, so money is no problem.
A problem is that every city we take increases corruption in other cities. Bergen is off the 2 turn worker scheme by that.
Played 13 turns, to get us over some cliffs and have an even turn.
Portugal is no more. We researched MT and Steel and got AT and elx from (correctly timed
) ToE.Constantinople has military academy.
We have 5 cav armies (20 cities) and if we should get more cities Constantinople can build a new army in 4 turns.
Turn log:
Turn 0:
I'm still not believing that the AI is already on RP since more than 10 turns. The ones getting nationalism had it before electricity and by that should have chosen another research. So my plan is for MT.
This doesn't fit with ToE (no research option would fit) in Paris, so I change to knight there.
As consequence, I don't want a real war in the next 5 turns. Constantinople changes to coal plant and will prebuild for military academy then.
But I want one more phony war, to increase the chances for broken allinces.
I declare on Carthage. Then I do several alliances against our three enemies, including with Portuguese in the hope they will be broken.
IBT:
Wow, that was quick (a bit too quick really), Portuguese declare war because they break the alliance versus Celts. So it will not be quite the peaceful turn set I intended.
Turn 1 830:
Kill everything killable around Delhi. Lose a knight and an AC to a redlined killer knight.
Pop-rush barracks in Delhi.
Do a few more allinces against Portugal.
Constantinople coal plant->BM as prebuild.
IBT:
Portuguese bypass Delhi.
Turn 2 840:
MM a bit. No war actions.
IBT:
Portuguese run around headlessly. But they land 4 units near Ta-Tu.
Turn 3 850:
Kill Portuguese units around Delhi and get a leader->army.
Kill Portuguese around Ta-tu
IBT:
Portugal land another few units near Ta-tu.
Romans attack Bombay killing one of the defenders.
Turn 4 860:
Get a leader near Ta-tu -> army.
Capture Bombay.
IBT:
MT completes->steel. Upgrade knights. Switch over academy prebuild.
Constantinople academy->army.
Turn 5 870:
Fill 2 armies with cavs.
I still don't reach 800 beakers.
Turn 6 880:Capture Lisbon nearly losing one of our shiny new cav armies to a killer musket.
But the other takes only scratches eliminating the rest.
Now I have over 800 beakers. Paris goes to ToE to complete together with steel.
Turn 7 890:
Lisbon has messed up several cities wrt corruption
. Try to fix stuff, but it doesn't really work nice. Another problem is pollution in Paris and Constantinople. This problem will persist to the end of the game.Turn 8 900:
Kill a few Portuguese near Orleans.
Turn 9 910:
Move units.
Turn 10 920:
Do a few new trades. Not much more. I play to a nice breakpoint.
Turn 11 930:
Navigation is around. Buy and trade maps.
Capture Oporto and destroy Portugal.
IBT:
Steel finishes.
ToE built in Paris. AT and elx.
Turn 12 940:
Get a leader in the battles against Koreans. Build army.
Disband MDI army. There is an army completing in Constantinople and that would be over our allowance.
Turn 13 950:
A nice turn (dividable by 10). Don't do much. Only minor trades and killing a few Koreans.
We have three cav armies in former Portugal and 2 in America.
I'm still hoping that America will declare by breaking an alliance.
I don't want to break alliances if not necessary, so I kept the war with Korea. The majority of Korean forces are already gone, so defending should be no big problem.
We have currently 20 cities, we would like 34 or at least 30.
I think America is high on the list then soon Spain. At some time we have to go down to the southern island. We probably don't need all sci civs, so we could also think of taking out Korea or Persia. I'm not so eager to go after the isolated civs, as they probably have lots of units running around.
Research is on refining. We are now over 800 beakers/turn but will probably not manage the next step, so research will be 7 to complete refining 8 for combustion, 9 for flight and 7 each for mass production and motorized transport.
This means we have still to wait a few turns for RP, if the AI started it when I think they did.
I didn't sell industrialism and we should probably continue to not do it. If we don't get enough cities we at least have the 800sh US prebuild (which can also be used in the capital). And please don't build this wonder.
There is music theory around, but I don't see a reason to get it.
We have lots of gpt payments, so money is no problem.
A problem is that every city we take increases corruption in other cities. Bergen is off the 2 turn worker scheme by that.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 6,673
Good work producing armies. 
What are the odds that a given scientific civ will receive Fission as its free MA tech? If it's a straight 25%, then unfortunately even with all nine sci civs in the game we'll have a 7.5% chance of missing Fission. If we eliminate two sci civs, the chance of missing it will increase to 13.4%.
What are the odds that a given scientific civ will receive Fission as its free MA tech? If it's a straight 25%, then unfortunately even with all nine sci civs in the game we'll have a 7.5% chance of missing Fission. If we eliminate two sci civs, the chance of missing it will increase to 13.4%.
Ronald
Emperor
I got the save and will play tomorrow. Any other suggestions besides Spain and hoping that America is declaring?
Northern Pike
Deity
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- Messages
- 6,673
That sounds fine. It would also be good if you could start establishing ship chains (with newly built galleons, of course) to Carthage and Zululand. There's no cunning way of doing that quickly, so we have to plan ahead.
I count seventeen cities on the map held by non-scientific civs. It should be possible to take them all in the time remaining before the MA, as long as we build enough ships, and do the work involved in fighting several wars per round. With plenty of armies now available as stack anchors, I'm not too concerned about fighting the civs who've spent the game alone on their islands (the Celts and the Romans), although we could ignore one of them if we wanted and still reach Klarius's target of thirty-four cities. I don't see any need to reduce our chances by eliminating scientific civs.
I count seventeen cities on the map held by non-scientific civs. It should be possible to take them all in the time remaining before the MA, as long as we build enough ships, and do the work involved in fighting several wars per round. With plenty of armies now available as stack anchors, I'm not too concerned about fighting the civs who've spent the game alone on their islands (the Celts and the Romans), although we could ignore one of them if we wanted and still reach Klarius's target of thirty-four cities. I don't see any need to reduce our chances by eliminating scientific civs.
Another possibility would be to reduce Babylon to 1 city. We don't need all to vote for us, just a majority and Babylon would give a bunch of cities in one nice campaign w/o the need of splitting our troops widely.
There are several possibilities. I would now look first if somebody sticks out his head by declaring on us. We should still be careful not to declare too much, or we can get in trouble in the end with people don't wanting to vote for us.
There are several possibilities. I would now look first if somebody sticks out his head by declaring on us. We should still be careful not to declare too much, or we can get in trouble in the end with people don't wanting to vote for us.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 6,673
Yes, reducing the Babylonians to one city occurred to me too, and I wouldn't object to that.
Ronald
Emperor
Gentlemen, I have to apologize. Just when I wanted to start my turns, I got a phonecall that I need to fly early tmorrow morning to South America. So instead of playing, I have to drive to the airport.
I don't know when I will be back precisely, so please skip me untill further notice.
Again, sorry, but I can't change RL.
I don't know when I will be back precisely, so please skip me untill further notice.
Again, sorry, but I can't change RL.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
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- Messages
- 6,673
No problem; these things happen.
I suppose TB is up now, if he'll be back on Monday as he indicated.
I suppose TB is up now, if he'll be back on Monday as he indicated.
TimBentley
Deity
Got it. I should play tomorrow. Edit: Played a few turns, but low on time so will finish Thursday.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
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- 6,673
BTW, my Internet connection is down at the moment. It shouldn't matter in terms of the playing rotation, but I may not be able to participate in the discussion, if we decide to have any discussion. 
TimBentley
Deity
950(0): minor MM
IBT: Ottomans, Celts sign peace
960(1): kill some Koreans
IBT: Celts, China sign peace
Celts, Babylon sign peace
Spain, Korea sign embargo
970(2): kill more Koreans
IBT: Germany destroys Carthage
I think this caused us to be at war with America
Paris builds Magellan's
980(3): more death
IBT: Germany, Celts sign peace
lose supply of dyes
990(4): sell atomic theory to Sumeria for dyes, WM
capture New York
IBT: Korea, Germany sign peace
We're at war with Rome, I'm not sure when that happened
Babylon demands incense, I don't want to stop getting paid, so give in
1000(5): capture Washington, America is dead
rush library in New York
IBT: Persia, Rome sign trade embargo against us
1010(6): rush court in Washington
IBT: Arabia, Celts sign peace
learn refining, start on combustion, won't be faster than 8 turns
lose furs
1020(7): sell navigation to China for furs, WM, 24g
capture Seoul
sign peace with Korea, get WM, 14g
I'm tired of losing cavs to 2 or 3 defense units in the open
we have sufficient units to defeat Spain, so the galleons are rearranging to go south
IBT: Korea, Zulu sign peace
1030(8): rush library in Seoul
that's annoying, extra corruption messed Bergen up again
1040(9): declare war on Spain
1050(10): kill units; two armies outside Barcelona
There's some Spanish units (pikes and MDIs I believe) SW of Seoul.
Notes: I've left the ships unmoved, they're roughly in the right area for shipment to the southern island. There's 8 cavs north of the island and 2 armies northeast of the island.
Probably Arabia would be a good next target, then China. Probably when Spain is conquered some troops there could head to Rome, although the corruption in other cities would be annoying. I think the aforementioned plus most of Babylon is sufficient.
We want 900bpt (which we have) for flight (although we'll probably have to wait for RP regardless) and 934bpt for mass production and motorized transportation.
Here is the save.
IBT: Ottomans, Celts sign peace
960(1): kill some Koreans
IBT: Celts, China sign peace
Celts, Babylon sign peace
Spain, Korea sign embargo
970(2): kill more Koreans
IBT: Germany destroys Carthage
I think this caused us to be at war with America
Paris builds Magellan's
980(3): more death
IBT: Germany, Celts sign peace
lose supply of dyes
990(4): sell atomic theory to Sumeria for dyes, WM
capture New York
IBT: Korea, Germany sign peace
We're at war with Rome, I'm not sure when that happened
Babylon demands incense, I don't want to stop getting paid, so give in
1000(5): capture Washington, America is dead
rush library in New York
IBT: Persia, Rome sign trade embargo against us
1010(6): rush court in Washington
IBT: Arabia, Celts sign peace
learn refining, start on combustion, won't be faster than 8 turns
lose furs
1020(7): sell navigation to China for furs, WM, 24g
capture Seoul
sign peace with Korea, get WM, 14g
I'm tired of losing cavs to 2 or 3 defense units in the open
we have sufficient units to defeat Spain, so the galleons are rearranging to go south
IBT: Korea, Zulu sign peace
1030(8): rush library in Seoul
that's annoying, extra corruption messed Bergen up again
1040(9): declare war on Spain
1050(10): kill units; two armies outside Barcelona
There's some Spanish units (pikes and MDIs I believe) SW of Seoul.
Notes: I've left the ships unmoved, they're roughly in the right area for shipment to the southern island. There's 8 cavs north of the island and 2 armies northeast of the island.
Probably Arabia would be a good next target, then China. Probably when Spain is conquered some troops there could head to Rome, although the corruption in other cities would be annoying. I think the aforementioned plus most of Babylon is sufficient.
We want 900bpt (which we have) for flight (although we'll probably have to wait for RP regardless) and 934bpt for mass production and motorized transportation.
Here is the save.
Northern Pike
Deity
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Good work against the Americans, and I'm glad you've positioned our galleons for future operations.
We're having wretched luck with scientific civs beating us to the cities of non-sci civs--Tiwanaku, Utica, Carthage. There are only thirteen non-sci cities left now, and we need eleven of them to reach the target of thirty-four. We should try to attack one of the isolated island civs fairly soon, so that we can judge how difficult it is; this will help us to decide whether, if we leave one non-sci civ alive, it should be the other isolated civ or the Zulus in their inconvenient location. There's also the factor that we're already at war with the isolated civs, but not with the Zulus.
We're having wretched luck with scientific civs beating us to the cities of non-sci civs--Tiwanaku, Utica, Carthage. There are only thirteen non-sci cities left now, and we need eleven of them to reach the target of thirty-four. We should try to attack one of the isolated island civs fairly soon, so that we can judge how difficult it is; this will help us to decide whether, if we leave one non-sci civ alive, it should be the other isolated civ or the Zulus in their inconvenient location. There's also the factor that we're already at war with the isolated civs, but not with the Zulus.
