SGOTM 12 - klarius

[klarius]

The only capital really worth it in the northwest seems to be Delhi, so it seems we have to go for it.
But I would not move any dromon directly to Delhi. The danger that a galley zooms out is to big. So land the troops on the neutral tiles on that island. And in that case sign in Portugal again. They even do it for free.

There would be also another more radical idea. In two turns our alliances against Egypt and Netherlands can be canceled and we are free to make peace. Then this region is pretty save. We could go for Hattusas with GLight (maybe collect troops in Persia with RoP before declaring). That would cancel our worries then in the future about dromons.
If we don't go for that, I would rather refresh the alliances. I don't think that Netherlands (no coastal city on our side anymore) or Egypt (didn't have alphabet in the beginning, so no early curraghs) are big dangers to show up with boats.
I see the danger really in Gandhi and maybe Caesar if he gets cocky again. Both have shown several curraghs. And we already know that Caesar is capable of mounting an invasion (as seen against Aztecs) that we couldn't counter currently.

BTW, we don't need much of a prebuild for a university. It's 100sh for scientific, so 4 turns in the capital from scratch - no big worry. But nevertheless we can optimize with a cathedral prebuild.

General trade more and give gifts. There is no reason to keep AA techs from anybody and also starting MA techs from far away nations (thay will get them anyway before we come around).

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Have looked at save.

This is second time writing this as my internet crashed when i clicked on post the first time

Military
I agree, finish off Japan asap. Try to entice them to DOW on us on first turn if not take healthy troops 6MDI 1AC on march to Kyoto. I would like to investigate Kyoto first (65g), just for my own peace of mind that I am not going to get rolled over if thats ok?? Then I suppose that its organising move to next war (wherever that maybe??)

Builds
Const - continue MDI's @ 2 turns, (not sure if uni prebuild will come under my watch but will take it into consideration if it does)
Tenoch - def not mktplace as will gain no benefit till >size 6. So is it Aqua now or pos Granary first??.
Osaka - Library at full steam.
Teo - I think we should look to use 5fpt cow from const if feasible to encourage growth here?? If so poss start Aqua now??
Kyoto - with the irrigated grassland poss use it to generate few extra workers??

Trades
Get rid of Monarchy to all aswell as Construct, and look to feed Level 1 MA techs to far off civs. Do you agree to renegotiate spices deal with Otto, will have to be for Theology or straight gold??

Next target??
Whether we go to India or to the East we need to secure our back with peace deals. Although I like the idea of going East I would be wary of the Romans, they've got to be itching for more land. But, to the East are tales of Glighthouses, and even what about Egypt and her lovely gems?? I'm sure, without horses and Iron, they have been getting a spanking from Persia??

Your thoughts would be muchly appreciated. I will not have time tomorrow to play turns but will check in to discuss ideas. Will look to play Saturday.

 

[Ronald]

Have looked at save.

This is second time writing this as my internet crashed when i clicked on post the first time

OK, here are my 2 cents:

Military
I agree, finish off Japan asap. Try to entice them to DOW on us on first turn if not take healthy troops 6MDI 1AC on march to Kyoto. I would like to investigate Kyoto first (65g), just for my own peace of mind that I am not going to get rolled over if thats ok?? Then I suppose that its organising move to next war (wherever that maybe??)

You actually have 6 healthy MI in Osaka 1 MI and 1 AC on the dromon. That's 8 good units ready to take Kyoto in 690BC for I would guess a maximum of 4 spears and an archer. I would not spend the 65g to get this confirmed.
The other dromon has an MI in it, I would unload it Teo and move the AC of Teo to Tenoch, so that we have a t least one defender in every city at the moment.

Builds
Const - continue MDI's @ 2 turns, (not sure if uni prebuild will come under my watch but will take it into consideration if it does)
Tenoch - def not mktplace as will gain no benefit till >size 6. So is it Aqua now or pos Granary first??.
Osaka - Library at full steam.
Teo - I think we should look to use 5fpt cow from const if feasible to encourage growth here?? If so poss start Aqua now??
Kyoto - with the irrigated grassland poss use it to generate few extra workers??

Const: I would build an archer in 1 first to get rid of the entertainer and maximise science output, then MIs
Tenoch - I would go for aquaeduct, probably we will grow the city with workers, so granary is not so important
Teo - using the cow is fine with me, but don't waste food (if you switch at this turn, 1 food would be wasted) and watch Constantinopel carefully for science and of course don't let it shrink aqua as a build is OK with me
Kyoto, don't get fooled by the current picture, that's old info. With all the aztec troops in their land lately, there is probably hardly any improvement left.

Trades
Get rid of Monarchy to all aswell as Construct, and look to feed Level 1 MA techs to far off civs. Do you agree to renegotiate spices deal with Otto, will have to be for Theology or straight gold??

I personally would rather not theology so soon and use gold instead, but let's hear what klarius has to say on this he's my trading teacher

Next target??
Whether we go to India or to the East we need to secure our back with peace deals. Although I like the idea of going East I would be wary of the Romans, they've got to be itching for more land. But, to the East are tales of Glighthouses, and even what about Egypt and her lovely gems?? I'm sure, without horses and Iron, they have been getting a spanking from Persia??

Your thoughts would be muchly appreciated. I will not have time tomorrow to play turns but will check in to discuss ideas. Will look to play Saturday.

For peace deals, make sure that we don't have committed alliances. If you make peace during an alliance it will hit our reputation.
I would go for India next. Delhi is close enough to be productive. Hittites are too far away for becoming productive cities without FP. The best site for FP would definitely be France with these nice wool tiles (I remember our 2 turn settler factory a few SGOTM ago ).

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

You actually have 6 healthy MI in Osaka 1 MI and 1 AC on the dromon. That's 8 good units ready to take Kyoto in 690BC for I would guess a maximum of 4 spears and an archer. I would not spend the 65g to get this confirmed.
The other dromon has an MI in it, I would unload it Teo and move the AC of Teo to Tenoch, so that we have a t least one defender in every city at the moment.

Apologies if I miscounted, but yes in reality all healthy troops to Kyoto was the plan whether that was 7 or 8. I also intended to drop off the MDI to cover TEO/Teno as mentioned.

Const: I would build an archer in 1 first to get rid of the entertainer and maximise science output, then MIs
Tenoch - I would go for aquaeduct, probably we will grow the city with workers, so granary is not so important
Teo - using the cow is fine with me, but don't waste food (if you switch at this turn, 1 food would be wasted) and watch Constantinopel carefully for science and of course don't let it shrink aqua as a build is OK with me
Kyoto, don't get fooled by the current picture, that's old info. With all the aztec troops in their land lately, there is probably hardly any improvement left.

I hear your point on Const, I assume to upgrade to MDI, Is it feasible to build more archers then upgrade @ 1 turn or continue to 2 turn MDI's??
I understand the point on merging workers but in reality when will we be in a position to do this?? If we build Aqua in Teno now it will be finished in I calculate 18 turns with Teno at size 4.5. If we will be in position to merge then ok, if not will it not be better to build Granary first to help natural growth??

I personally would rather not theology so soon and use gold instead, but let's hear what klarius has to say on this he's my trading teacher

These were my feelings too.

For peace deals, make sure that we don't have committed alliances. If you make peace during an alliance it will hit our reputation.
I would go for India next. Delhi is close enough to be productive. Hittites are too far away for becoming productive cities without FP. The best site for FP would definitely be France with these nice wool tiles (I remember our 2 turn settler factory a few SGOTM ago ).

Our alliances against Dutch and Egypt are up in two turns so could negotiate peace then. I was more concerned with leaving rear open to India and Rome if we went East than the other way as Dutch are down to 1 city and Egypt are pobably weakened. I agree with you Ron that we should stick to India for now.

 

[klarius]

Yes don't give out theology that soon. But everything else is fair game. When the lux deal is up check first if you can get it from somebody else. Maya or Inca may have it also (this seems to be a pretty spicy island).

A general rule, I think we should follow:
No peace treaties, if there is no good reason. We might need to declare then again later and take another small diplomacy hit.
So if we are not going SE with dromons, I see no reason for peace with Egypt or Netherlands. A landing from them is no problem. You can still make peace then, if you cannot handle it. In fact being at war with them talking is easier to handle than a sneak attack from somebody we are at peace.
But here comes another rule: Do not ever break an alliance even if you lose a city. That's a real bad diplomatic hit and may prevent the alliances and MPPs needed in the end.
Same goes for 20-turn peace and RoP treaties. We just don't break them in this game. Also no sneak attacks.

Egypt is not a good candidate for war immediately after Japan. They wouldn't be connected to the capital before astronomy. Hattusas with GLight would allow connection that's the reason to even consider to go this direction. The other reason is that it could be a nice stepping stone towards Paris, which I assume is the best city in the world due to wool (that's a cow in disguise with extra commerce and a lux).
But generally I'm still undecided who should be next after Japan. India is very dangerous wrt premature GA, IMO. There is also the other point that as long as we let India survive, we can get over the trade reputation problem, by having our trade partner at war with them.

Hattusas will need longer and Hittites are a tougher opponent. If we do the troop transports at peace with the locals the danger of GA is lower. Another nice point is that we would stick to the team klarius tradition to not go the obvious way, but be different .

Archers upgrade to longbows, which needs invention. So that's still a bit off. I think Ronald thought of archers as cheap garrison only. But in fact upgrading them later is also a good thing.

I wouldn't consider a granary in Teno. There is no chance to get it over 2 food surplus (no way to irrigate before electricity), so it would grow slowly anyway. It really needs to grow by worker merges. But for that I would consider granary in Teo and leave this small size as worker factory for some time.
Kyoto has fresh water and MoM for happiness. It should get big (after we have it naturally).

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Ok

So, aqua in Teno, and Granary in Teo with idea to create wkr factory there.

Only question now is where to go after Japan, I think we should stick with India. This way we face less threat from our rear and eliminate a nearby threat. If we go against Hitites we could be snook up on by Rome or India with majority of our troops far away.
These are my thoughts but would prefer more of a consensus before going one way or the other.

 

[Wotan]

Sure, run with it MD.

 

[klarius]

I'm not sure that we can afford a lot troop movement at all in the next set. We really have to secure our current holdings, which means every town should be at least reachable by 2 units (and that maybe not enough). It will take some time until we have roads everywhere, so we cannot share units except between Teno and Teo (ok also Teo and Osaka with a ship chain, but that needs 2 dromons).
In the capital we really would like to have 3 units garrison for happiness purpose.
It will take at least 3 turns to get Kyoto and then the troops are down there and need another few turns to get back to smewhere.

I just don't see that we can spare a real force in the next 10 turns and moving just a few units (and risking our dromons already) isn't really getting us nearer to capture anything.

One thing I would like to have is more embassies. Especially with our neighbors so we get intelligence about wars running. And maybe get Rome into war with India, so they can sink some of their ships mutually.

And BTW, India is not really near in terms of turns needed for transport. Teo to the Persepolis region is shorter.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Ok, so after taking Kyoto I will look to consolidate militarily ready for next push. With this in mind no need to negotiate peace with anyone to leave options open. I will look to soften India by drawing its neighbours into war against it. Look to open embassies with neighbours and everything else as previously discussed.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Will play turns in morning with plans as last discussed, unless further comments.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Ok guys have played.

Pre end turn - change builds to Const - archer, Teno - aqua, Teo - granary.
Trade Maya Const for 24g+3gpt
Celts Alpha+Myst for 1g (How behind are they??)
Carth Monarch for 10g+2gpt
Arab Monarch for 9g
Build Embassy in Rome they have 3 legions garrisoned, building legion (2 turns) and are running 70% gold.

IBT Spain enter MA

Turn 1 730BC
Const archer => MDI (change ent to sci)
DOW on Japan

IBT Jap spear dies attacking Osaka.
Sumeria completes Sun Tzu
Lose spices

Turn 2 710BC
Trade Spain spices+4g for Monarch

IBT
Indian Galley appears W of Teno
Mongols DOW on Babylon
Neth + Persia peace

Turn 3 690BC
Take Kyoto, Kill 3 spears, No losses 1 MDI promoted to Elite.
Kyoto has barracks, start build wrkr.

IBT
Indian archer lands by Teno.

Turn 4 670BC
Dispose of Indian archer
Trade Maya Poly for 18g+2gpt
Russ Eng for 31g+5gpt
Greece Eng for 29g
France Eng 4 25g

IBT
Maya enter MA
Const spawns AC

Turn 5 650BC
Trade England Monarch for 12g+1gpt

IBT
Another Indian archer
Persia + Egypt Peace
Eng enter MA

Turn 6 630BC
AC kills Indian archer (promoted)

IBT
Spain + Port peace
Egypt galley east of Teno

Turn 7 610BC
Alliance with Persia vs Egypt

IBT
lost curragh in sea

Turn 8 590BC
Nothing

Turn 9 570BC
Const MDI => cath (uni pre build) 25spt 4 turns.
Trade CArth Feud for 25g + 2gpt

IBT
India drop Warr and Arch

Turn 10
Kill Indian Warr and Arch.

Ronald
I moved science to 90% as Osaka was about to riot, should be ok now with MP so can move it back or to 10% gold as do not think will help research any quicker.
Indian Galley nr Teno is empty
Have started to move wrkrs from Teno south to help works there.
We need to connect Osaka and Kyoto.
Education finished in 3, need to immediately change Constantinople to Uni. Can then move back to 100% science.
I have 3 MDI fog busting nr Kyoto, you could move these if you feel they are unnecssary. Once Osaka linked can reduce MP there. Have started to move some troops back to Const ready for India.

Rome currently want Monarch + Construct + approx 200g for alliance with India, wasn't sure if this was good value so have left it at moment.
Port will Ally with us now for nothing against India, could use to lure Indians to that front whilst we come from their rear to take Delhi.

 

[Ronald]

I got the save and will post my plans either tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Wotan]

I have not had time to look at the save but from what I read I would say:

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Ronald
I moved science to 90% as Osaka was about to riot, should be ok now with MP so can move it back or to 10% gold as do not think will help research any quicker.

Sorry, It was a few hours between finish play and post report and I forgot why I did this. I had to move lux slider to 10% to keep Const happy at 25spt production, not Osaka, so cant move it until finish Uni/Edu. It doesn't affect number of turns for Ed.

 

[Ronald]

I had now a look at the save. Looks nice Mighty Dwaarf.

The only thing I did not like too much were the fogbusters. Probably a new civIV habit . I always thought in civ3 that a barb camp is 25g and therefore positive (at least as long as I have some military near by).

As far as I see it, my turns look straight forward:
Research:
Finish education. Next research astronomy? Hopefully by then we can at least trade for invention.
Builds:
Constantinople then uses seatiles as much as possible +20 shields for max. science. Build some military then.
Teotihuacan becomes a 2-turn worker factory.
I change the build in Kyoto to library.
Tenochtitlan should build marketplace after aquaeduct.
Military:
Take out India, alliance with Portugal and Rome

Anything else for the next 10 turns?

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

The only thing I did not like too much were the fogbusters. Probably a new civIV habit . I always thought in civ3 that a barb camp is 25g and therefore positive (at least as long as I have some military near by).

I was worried about an appearance of mass horde which could (by numbers)plunder large portion of our gold, It has happened to me on lower diff levels. Maybe I was being little too cautious though.

Will we be looking to build Copern Obs when we have Astronomy??

 

[Ronald]

I was worried about an appearance of mass horde which could (by numbers)plunder large portion of our gold, It has happened to me on lower diff levels. Maybe I was being little too cautious though.

The large hords are only coming when the 2nd civ is changing into a new age. It will take a while to get to that.

Will we be looking to build Copern Obs when we have Astronomy??

I believe we should build it. Every additional science point is important.

 

[klarius]

I really would like to see some more embassies and some more alliances.
I would ally Rome against India for gpt (needs about all we have) and get the gpt back for techs, which we have plenty over them.
The idea here is really to get both navies against each other, so they get out of our way.

I would also ally Portugal again against India (comes for free).

Then I think to renegotiate the alliance with Babylon against Netherlands and maybe add Egypt in the deal.

I also think of an alliance with Hittites. Probably coupled with peace renegotiation to get a chance they declare on us. I would do Egypt and India there (not Netherlands, as they may die to quick).

In a standard deity game I would not do astronomy, but here were the AI hasn't even got invention 28 turns after several AIs could research it. So we have to research astronomy ourselves for sure.
Cops is another question. 400 shields is a lot currently. And any wonder we build ourselves will also start our GA, as we own MoM in Kyoto.
But that question isn't coming up that soon. Maybe we do something sneaky like giving astronomy exclusively to France .


Well, Ronald, you seem to be obsessed by market places. I think Teno needs university (maybe even before aqueduct) and courthouse more urgent. There's no need to really get it all the way to size 12 soon. And currently a market doesn't give many happy faces. That will only change after astronomy, when we can trade for more luxes.

 

[Wotan]

I agree with Klarius, we need science more than we need markets etc. And work the alliance game some more...

I like the idea of trying to nurse france into building GWs for us if we can make it work.

 

[Ronald]

OK guys, I'm not obsessed with marketplaces and I can't finish one on my turns, so no problem for me to build anything else.

The only real question is about Tenochtitlan: keep the plan for an aquaeduct or go first for an university?

Since both klarius and wotan are asking for more alliances, I did some long term thinking to find out what should make sense or not.

For the next age change, we want to have all scientific civs around to be able to get a second tier tech for free.

Scientific civs are: Ottomans, Sumeria, Persia, Babylon, Russia, Greece, Germany and Korea

Therefore we should not try to eliminate these civs now or put them in danger to become eliminated.

Looking at the map we have

1) 1 single civ island relative far from the next landmass: Rome
2) 1 small island with 2 civs: Korea and Spain
6 landmasses with multiple civs:
3) Our landmass
4) India, Portugal, Maya, Inca, Ottomans
5) England, Sumeria, Germany, Zulu
6) Egypt, Persia, Babylon, Netherlands, Hittites, Mongols
7) Carthago, China, Russia, Iroquois, Greece, Arabia
8) France, Scandinavia, America, Celts (own island but very close to France)

Some ideas about what would be a good outcome for us in the long term:

Ad 1) Use Rome in the short term to fight Portugal
Ad 2) Keep Korea no action unless Spain is threatening to eliminate Spain (use Rome as ally for Korea against Spain if a war starts)
Ad 3) Max. Science
Ad 4) Conquer India, Portugal, Maya, Inca and keep Ottomans as pet civ
Ad 5) Get Sumeria as powerhouse all others gone (Germany alive for next age)
Ad 6) In the long run either Babylon or Persia should become superpower, in the short run it would be nice if Persia could eliminate Egypt, Babylon the Netherlands and Hittites the Mongols. Medium term we want Persia and Babylon
Ad 7) Greece should be the powerhouse on this continent, Russia should survive untill next age
Ad 8) Paris should become our FP, rest slowly conquered or kept as pet civs

Given this long term goals, what alliances make sense now:

Rome to fight Portugal, alliance with Rome. Not immediately, Portuguese troops should be far enough from Delhi (once we have it of course) - not in the next 10 turns

Inca fighting Maya, alliance with Inca. Not in the next ten turns

Germany fight Zulu, Sumeria fights England we should back Sumeria and Germany, could be done immediately

Persia fight Egypt, Babylon the Netherlands and Hittities the Mongols. We back Persia, Babylon and Hittites. Can be implemented immediatley

Russia and Carthago fighting China, Iroquois and Greece fighting Arabia.
We back Russia, Carthago, Iroquois and Greece. Can be implemented immediately.

For the French domain, we don't want a very strong country at the moment since we are going to conquer later. So I would not start any phony wars there.

Any comments on these thoughts? I am planning to play tomorrow.