LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
Yes. Parthenon completed in Moscow T120 giving a total of 6gppt from then on.
SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Mitchum
Deity
More thinking on fast Communism, we could Liberalize Scientific Method and steal Communism. That means we just have to self-research up to Astronomy, PP and Liberalism.
Mitchum
Deity
I missed the Lyons-2N archer. That means that SW route is unsafe altogether obviously. The point is to not scare the western worker away from roading, so you could try T100-1S(after DoW); T101-1NE. I think that will allow the worker to continue his planned roading. BUt obviously, T101 and beyond depends on what dG does with his units...
It seems better to me if we just steal both workers on this turn per bcool's plan. Then we can get DoP/CF the next turn assuming we don't lose a chariot. If DeGaulle has a spear already, we're toast no matter where we have our chariots (together or separate). If he doesn't have a spear, I think having our chariots separate for a single turn prior to being able to sign a cease fire is an acceptable level of risk.
bcool
Deity
TGL approx date if beeline Lit is 117 (with 2 settlers for islands)
TGL approx date MC first is 119
TGL approx date MC first is 119
No, I'm suggesting that we evaluate the potential sites (corn/fish/deer ; Silver ; islands ; bananas) for growth/development potential in the short term. If we're assuming that our development is well behind research for Oxford, we should work on rectifying that. The extra TR commerce is less than +2c per city (since we already have a connection to Galley City anyway). Not exactly game-breaking when we only have 4 cities to begin with.
I do think Oxford should be in Moscow, btw. It's not an ideal bureau capital, but does have a significant amount of base commerce. More importantly, I don't see a very compelling alternative, and some future, as yet unknown site would take forever and a day to develop.
bcool
Deity
Conquest test game
I may have over done the WE compared to catapults, but this just a stab at conquest with WE beeline construction/Horseback riding.
I'm assuming more catapults would make this type of conquest efficient?
It seems to me that macemen would be more efficient, even though they will take longer to build. Not only would waiting for macemen allow us time to build infrastructure/generate
there is a decent chance the AI will not have longbows since they are teching a bit slowly in this game.
I may have over done the WE compared to catapults, but this just a stab at conquest with WE beeline construction/Horseback riding.
I'm assuming more catapults would make this type of conquest efficient?
It seems to me that macemen would be more efficient, even though they will take longer to build. Not only would waiting for macemen allow us time to build infrastructure/generate
there is a decent chance the AI will not have longbows since they are teching a bit slowly in this game.
bcool
Deity
I agree Pigs site would be a better NE site and possible site for the GL...
Moscow could be our Oxford and Iron Works city
Moscow could be our Oxford and Iron Works city
bcool
Deity
Stealing communism from Mao might work, we have the holy city of his religion too, might make sense to try to steal it from him. Distance penalties wouldn't be good though. We would need to build up espionage quickly we only have about 80 turns from now before we can start researching communism ourselves. Need to do some calculations... 16 ep average (maybe with aggressive courthouse building) per turn times 80 = 1280 ep if we focused on it. Maybe we could run a few spies 40 turns*8 (2 spies) 320 more...
I don't know the formula for stealing techs, but I think we would need to make up quite a bit of the difference with espionage slider (very inefficient since we would have no espionage multiplying buildings)
I don't know the formula for stealing techs, but I think we would need to make up quite a bit of the difference with espionage slider (very inefficient since we would have no espionage multiplying buildings)
Mitchum
Deity
If we can build up enough epp by running the slider at 100% espionage for 5? turns vs. 100% science for 10? turns, wouldn't the espionage route be the way to go? I'm not sure if the number of turns is correct, but it seems a shame not to steal Communism since we have the chance and can plan for it.
I am by no means an espionage expert, so take my comments with a grain of salt...
bcool
Deity
I can get the Great Library in Pigs by turn 125 (250 AD)
But I'm not sure we will be able to prevent a Great Prophet/Great Artist from being born. I tech Philosophy (but I was getting some good gold trades from the AI to do this)
But check out this test game (Colossus, Parthenon, and the Great Library)
But I'm not sure we will be able to prevent a Great Prophet/Great Artist from being born. I tech Philosophy (but I was getting some good gold trades from the AI to do this)
But check out this test game (Colossus, Parthenon, and the Great Library)
Mitchum
Deity
I forgot that WEs require HBR too (is that the case in Vanilla too?). That would require us to research two techs of our Communism beeline = not good. I agree that macemen is the way to go, but we should consider a possible axe attack on Rheims once it grows to 2 pops.
Mitchum
Deity
With all of the infrastructure we plan to build, does it make sense to revolt to Confucianism and Organized Religion any time soon (lose 2 turns in revolt)? Sure, we then have to build a bunch of missionaries, but the 25% bonus hammers would be very nice...
I'm leaning towards the Pigs TGL-NE plan. Thx for testing, bcool.
(LC's GP plan from earlier today didn't make sense to me. There's no point in building TGL if we're then gonna do our best to avoid popping a GP with it.)
HBR is pretty commonly tradable by circa 1AD. Part of the reason I want Aest-Lit asap is because we can delay the next tech until we can get an estimate on what's tradable. It doesn't seem to me like we'd be doing the full-on military build-up for a little while, so we could tech other necessary stuff in the meantime. It's not so much about WE's as it is about cats, anyway. Still, stables are a cheap second promo, and WE's upgrade to Cuirassiers later. It's not exactly cut-and-dried.
Edit: It doesn't really matter. If you guys want MC-Machinery, let's just do that.
I think it's better to go Communism via Chem for faster workshops and a Steel/Bio option, which makes Construction (Eng) beeline material, btw.
(LC's GP plan from earlier today didn't make sense to me. There's no point in building TGL if we're then gonna do our best to avoid popping a GP with it.)
HBR is pretty commonly tradable by circa 1AD. Part of the reason I want Aest-Lit asap is because we can delay the next tech until we can get an estimate on what's tradable. It doesn't seem to me like we'd be doing the full-on military build-up for a little while, so we could tech other necessary stuff in the meantime. It's not so much about WE's as it is about cats, anyway. Still, stables are a cheap second promo, and WE's upgrade to Cuirassiers later. It's not exactly cut-and-dried.
Edit: It doesn't really matter. If you guys want MC-Machinery, let's just do that.
I think it's better to go Communism via Chem for faster workshops and a Steel/Bio option, which makes Construction (Eng) beeline material, btw.
bcool
Deity
In the interest of getting the game moving...
I propose playing until MC is finished.
This preserves the plan to settle the 2 islands, leaves open the possibility to build the Colossus, TGL, and/or Parthenon. Researching MC before Aesthetics/Literature only delays the TGL by 2 turns if we decide to build it in Moscow.
Researching MC first leave open the possibility of Machinery next (for early macemen)
Things to look for every turn
Gold trades
Peace with Stalin if he has a decent gold trade
Who is preparing for war (is there an easier way to do this than checking every AI diplo screen each turn?)
De Gaulle Espionage build screen info
Workboat movement priorities:
3. Exploring workboats: Current priority is defogging our possible settlements closest to Moscow. This includes thoroughly defogging that SE island before going further east, imo, so we know whether we want one or two cities there. (After that, the priority is more distant exploration and possible circumnavigation.)
AI demands...
Give into small tech demands from Mao, Gandhi?
Deny De Gaulle any demands
Detailed worker moves and MM in spoiler
Finishes Metal Casting...
I propose playing until MC is finished.
This preserves the plan to settle the 2 islands, leaves open the possibility to build the Colossus, TGL, and/or Parthenon. Researching MC before Aesthetics/Literature only delays the TGL by 2 turns if we decide to build it in Moscow.
Researching MC first leave open the possibility of Machinery next (for early macemen)
Things to look for every turn
Gold trades
Peace with Stalin if he has a decent gold trade
Who is preparing for war (is there an easier way to do this than checking every AI diplo screen each turn?)
De Gaulle Espionage build screen info
Workboat movement priorities:
3. Exploring workboats: Current priority is defogging our possible settlements closest to Moscow. This includes thoroughly defogging that SE island before going further east, imo, so we know whether we want one or two cities there. (After that, the priority is more distant exploration and possible circumnavigation.)
AI demands...
Give into small tech demands from Mao, Gandhi?
Deny De Gaulle any demands
Detailed worker moves and MM in spoiler
Spoiler :
Finishes Metal Casting...
Yes. BUFFY shows WHEOOHRN as a little red fist next the leader on the scoreboard.
Edit: Peace with Stalin? What do you mean by decent gold trade?
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
I appreciate your openness, bbp. I think it's crucial that we express our concerns as well as our various ideas. Thanks.
The Colossus can be far more valuable than either TGL or the Parthenon on this map, if we choose to take advantage of it. We have that choice because we know that all the key AIs (except Stalin) are within reach without Astro. Hence we don't need to obsolete the Colossus until after the entire Assembly Line and Mining, Inc, and Sushi, Inc. tech paths. I can tell you when we do finally obsolete it, it will HURT. BADLY. Like 1000cpt or something. That's just how anti-mediocre it can be, if we so choose.
Take for instance the Fish/Clams island (the awkward no-hammer one...
). It needs a granary, lh, and ch. Could also have a forge and poprush the lib/uni if we want. But at pop13, which is can easily reach with two food resources, with Colossus it will produce 13*3+1+4=44cpt. By comparison, our entire pop13 empire, as of T100, is producing...50cpt. 
And that's not even including the doubling of our trade route income for both trades routes in every one of our cities.
No. It is precisely +2c per city and Gandhi's Galley City doesn't help at all. Note that it doesn't even appear in any of our city's trade route info. It'd only give us +1cpt right now. None of Gandhi's or anyone else's cities will help, unless they're also on islands, until we've been at peace with them for 25t, and then each city will only produce...2cpt...for one trade route...in one of our cities. Foreign trade routes in this game will be useless until we've been at peace for 42+ turns and we have harbors in our cities, or the equivalent. Only then will the trade routes increase to +3cpt.
Mitchum
Deity
@ bcool
What do you consider appropriate gold trades with the AI other than Stalin? How much gold and what would you give up?
The forge causes +1
in Moscow. Do you intend to cap pops at 8 while building workers/settlers there until we can get more health resources?
I have not had a chance to review your worker MM in detail, but by looking at your save, things seem to be in order. It would have been nice to improve the sugar sooner, but I assume that you did what you could to make that happen.
What do you consider appropriate gold trades with the AI other than Stalin? How much gold and what would you give up?
The forge causes +1
in Moscow. Do you intend to cap pops at 8 while building workers/settlers there until we can get more health resources?I have not had a chance to review your worker MM in detail, but by looking at your save, things seem to be in order. It would have been nice to improve the sugar sooner, but I assume that you did what you could to make that happen.
Mitchum
Deity
OK, I didn't realise that we could avoid Astronomy until this late in the game. I guess I never do this because it it typically a key tech required to reach all AI in the game. Now I get your argument for the power of Colussus in this game. Thanks!
To do this, we use Chemistry on our Communism beeline, which isn't as fast as Astronomy (beaker wise), but does pick up a few key techs along the way.
bcool
Deity
What do you consider appropriate gold trades with the AI other than Stalin? How much gold and what would you give up?
The forge causes +1
I generally will take 30-40 gold for cheap techs like priesthood or meditation or polytheism, especially if only one or two AI don't know it yet.
If a lot of AI have a decent amount of gold to trade I might sell the same tech to all of them. For example Monotheism (which we might pick up in trade from Gandhi) can sell for 100+ gold. I generally won't sell it for too much less, but if 4 AI All have 60 or so gold, I'll sell it to all of them for a total of 200+ gold.
We might get lucky like I have in the test game, and someone (usually Rosey) will get 200+ gold, and then I would sell a mid level tech for that like Calendar/Code of Laws depends on what other AI don't know
Does someone know the cut off for worst enemy penalties? I have to be careful not to trigger those in some cases. But the gold trades can keep us going for another 10 turns if we are decently lucky.
We might get +1
from the forge for a few turns (I will take +5 
for -1 food for a few turns.) It depends on whether or not the northern workboat runs out of stuff to explore and comes back to net the clams.LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
M: Chemistry gives our State Property workshops their 4th hammer.
bcool: The red fist you can see in the lower righthand corner tells us that the AI is either 1) at war already, or 2) WHEOOHRN. Actually, on ~T96, when Mitchum noticed CHruchill suddenly had that fist, what actually happened was not that he went WHEOOHRN--he was already at war with us. What happened was that he met dG, the first AI he had met. That put the fist on the screen (don't ask me why it works like that). It also listed dG on his diplomatic screen and when you hovered over it to go to war with him, it said WHEOOHRN, for the first time also.
On capturing both workers T100: I think I'm about the least risk-averse person here, but I consider this foolhardy. In the test save, dG has far fewer units altogether, in case you hadn't noticed. In the real save, we've seen dG's archers all over the place, coming and going, wandering to and fro. When AIs have extra archers, they tend to send them around their BFCs randomly. I think the reason is that each unit takes his orders separately. There is no logic from one unit to the next. There are four fogged tiles from which a random archer could attack our warrior. The sequence in which any nearby archer will decide what to do: attack, wander, etc., makes it quite likely that it will attack. Your plan gets your second captured worker teleported on T102; the plan I showed you, on T105, a loss of three turns in exchange for basically no risk. Your call. Feel free to take the risk, if you choose, I've got no major problem with it.
bcool: The red fist you can see in the lower righthand corner tells us that the AI is either 1) at war already, or 2) WHEOOHRN. Actually, on ~T96, when Mitchum noticed CHruchill suddenly had that fist, what actually happened was not that he went WHEOOHRN--he was already at war with us. What happened was that he met dG, the first AI he had met. That put the fist on the screen (don't ask me why it works like that). It also listed dG on his diplomatic screen and when you hovered over it to go to war with him, it said WHEOOHRN, for the first time also.
On capturing both workers T100: I think I'm about the least risk-averse person here, but I consider this foolhardy. In the test save, dG has far fewer units altogether, in case you hadn't noticed. In the real save, we've seen dG's archers all over the place, coming and going, wandering to and fro. When AIs have extra archers, they tend to send them around their BFCs randomly. I think the reason is that each unit takes his orders separately. There is no logic from one unit to the next. There are four fogged tiles from which a random archer could attack our warrior. The sequence in which any nearby archer will decide what to do: attack, wander, etc., makes it quite likely that it will attack. Your plan gets your second captured worker teleported on T102; the plan I showed you, on T105, a loss of three turns in exchange for basically no risk. Your call. Feel free to take the risk, if you choose, I've got no major problem with it.
Similar threads
