LowtherCastle
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Test save T125, couldn't shut off Gandhi's trade routes when at war with dG. Otherwise, it's pretty close, if I'm not mistaken. Somehow, Pigs has 1 hammer overflow too much.
SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
bcool
Deity
Thanks for making the test game, now I can safely and randomly end turns 
So my computer was sleeping, I hit the space bar and clicked on the civ window before I think it was going to automatically come up. So the game registered the space bar and ended the turn
Anyways I will be very careful in the future (always closing the real game immediately after I look at it, if I look at it at all)
So my computer was sleeping, I hit the space bar and clicked on the civ window before I think it was going to automatically come up. So the game registered the space bar and ended the turn
Anyways I will be very careful in the future (always closing the real game immediately after I look at it, if I look at it at all)
LowtherCastle
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I always wake up my computer with a mouse movement. Now I know why.
Interesting results on mace vs. sword, LC. What it doesn't take into account is surviving maces' future usefulness or the odds should we run into a random combat1 axe.
I've been playing around with the test save. I don't particularly like spending resources in Pigs or GP on units. Pigs needs LH-Forge-Uni with NE built via OF, Siberia Gran-Lib-Forge. That build order seems about sufficient to me.
I guess the big questions are whether we want Theocracy with Rep, and what to do with HS. I'm still not crazy about Theocracy here, as we won't be building all that many units. OR is def. useful in Pigs and to a lesser extent in Moscow. HS doesn't seem as worthwhile atm, given our current worker numbers, but it should be worth it for GE points alone.
One somewhat silly option may be to build wealth in Moscow for 1-2t for Machinery completion. That way, we may be able to start on maces asa the galley is finished in Fish.
That pig def. makes Sheep (Bermuda, I guess?) worthwhile. I'd personally still 2pop a settler for Bananas from Siberia, before working towards a 3pop whip of forge. Simply fail to see the need for these CH's, though I'll admit I'm a total idiot when it comes to espionage (basically don't even use it in most games, beyond passive effects on one AI).
We might kinda need some MP in the short term. Don't have Archery yet, do we?
If we weren't necessarily making a run at Oxford from here, we might be better off with Eng ahead of Paper, assuming we can get a Construction trade on time. It would help some with the war effort, though I'm not sure how much.
Edit: x-post with LC. My laptop often simply refuses to wake up.
Edit2: I'd like to get the 100% GS from Pigs next. Getting one from Moscow after that is ok, but I'd be inclined to run an Eng in that case, to at least up the odds a bit. A prophet is seriously useless right now (we'd basically be saving it for the very end).
I've been playing around with the test save. I don't particularly like spending resources in Pigs or GP on units. Pigs needs LH-Forge-Uni with NE built via OF, Siberia Gran-Lib-Forge. That build order seems about sufficient to me.
I guess the big questions are whether we want Theocracy with Rep, and what to do with HS. I'm still not crazy about Theocracy here, as we won't be building all that many units. OR is def. useful in Pigs and to a lesser extent in Moscow. HS doesn't seem as worthwhile atm, given our current worker numbers, but it should be worth it for GE points alone.
One somewhat silly option may be to build wealth in Moscow for 1-2t for Machinery completion. That way, we may be able to start on maces asa the galley is finished in Fish.
That pig def. makes Sheep (Bermuda, I guess?) worthwhile. I'd personally still 2pop a settler for Bananas from Siberia, before working towards a 3pop whip of forge. Simply fail to see the need for these CH's, though I'll admit I'm a total idiot when it comes to espionage (basically don't even use it in most games, beyond passive effects on one AI).
We might kinda need some MP in the short term. Don't have Archery yet, do we?
If we weren't necessarily making a run at Oxford from here, we might be better off with Eng ahead of Paper, assuming we can get a Construction trade on time. It would help some with the war effort, though I'm not sure how much.
Edit: x-post with LC. My laptop often simply refuses to wake up.
Edit2: I'd like to get the 100% GS from Pigs next. Getting one from Moscow after that is ok, but I'd be inclined to run an Eng in that case, to at least up the odds a bit. A prophet is seriously useless right now (we'd basically be saving it for the very end).
IIRC what Silu said last time, it should 50 resource-turns for +1, regardless of any other variable.
We already have 6 units in the area of Rheims, and can send a seventh sword in Moscow. If we are really sure that De Gaulle won't reinforce Rheims we should be able to pick off the wandering archer, and then take it without building any additional units.
Hammer for hammer swords may be more effective against unpromoted archers than maces, however against axes swords are rubbish, and even against City garrison 1 archers an unpromoted sword only has 30.15% chance of winning! Maces must be better than this, especially when you consider they are more likely to survive to get higher promotions, so I still think we should build maces rather than swords.
I agree with gifting America surplus rescources to open up open borders later.
A prophet now wouldn't be too bad. The confunican shrine should easily pay off in the long run. Even a settled prophet would be almost as good as a scientist. We can whip a couple of maces in pigs and still get a 100% GS there next if we want, so these ideas aren't mutually exclusive.
Hammer for hammer swords may be more effective against unpromoted archers than maces, however against axes swords are rubbish, and even against City garrison 1 archers an unpromoted sword only has 30.15% chance of winning! Maces must be better than this, especially when you consider they are more likely to survive to get higher promotions, so I still think we should build maces rather than swords.
I agree with gifting America surplus rescources to open up open borders later.
A prophet now wouldn't be too bad. The confunican shrine should easily pay off in the long run. Even a settled prophet would be almost as good as a scientist. We can whip a couple of maces in pigs and still get a 100% GS there next if we want, so these ideas aren't mutually exclusive.
bcool
Deity
I still think an aggressive build up of macemen and catapults using theocracy is the way to go.
Despite my unintentional endorsement of the swordsman strategy
Macemen and catapults could cut through Mao as well I think. Without feudalism even a protective Mao would fall to our armies if we aggressively built 5 xp catapults and macemen.
We could aggressively whip in captured cities, courthouses, even Universities to accelerate our development of Oxford and perhaps the Forbidden Palace.
I think the odds of getting a great engineer are still pretty good without the HS. But if you guys must have it then I think a switch to theocracy and an aggressive build of macemen after that is still a good strategy.
With the HS we will be cutting the GS in Pigs very close. We will need a forge in Pigs sooner rather than later in order to beat Moscow.
If we do decide to skip the theocracy switch, then I think a compromise strategy of 2 swordsmen and 1 macemen for Rheims might work out. (We could perhaps whip a macemen in GP Farm without giving up on the GS there first although it would be very close).
Despite my unintentional endorsement of the swordsman strategy
Macemen and catapults could cut through Mao as well I think. Without feudalism even a protective Mao would fall to our armies if we aggressively built 5 xp catapults and macemen.
We could aggressively whip in captured cities, courthouses, even Universities to accelerate our development of Oxford and perhaps the Forbidden Palace.
I think the odds of getting a great engineer are still pretty good without the HS. But if you guys must have it then I think a switch to theocracy and an aggressive build of macemen after that is still a good strategy.
With the HS we will be cutting the GS in Pigs very close. We will need a forge in Pigs sooner rather than later in order to beat Moscow.
If we do decide to skip the theocracy switch, then I think a compromise strategy of 2 swordsmen and 1 macemen for Rheims might work out. (We could perhaps whip a macemen in GP Farm without giving up on the GS there first although it would be very close).
Yes. Alternatively we'd need to delay HS by that much, I think. Should be about 4t? That's part of the reason I suggested building wealth. We could do that for 2t, get Machinery, then barracks (or just do one quick mace w/o rax if we switch to Theo, for sending down south?) Moscow should get two more farms and stay on max food, btw.
And what if he gets Feudalism in the meantime? It would take a LOT of turns to get an attacking force against him. I don't like investing heavily in units that could effectively obsolete before they even get any use. Esp. when our cities have plenty of essential infra still to build, our economy is still nascent, there are plenty of cities to settle and/or take from DG. Cannons will wipe out LBs more effectively than cats archers, IMO (both in the sense of actual battle and the greater ease of build-up/economic-recovery with fully mature cities).
You were the one who insisted on Mining Inc. the most, right?
Ofc the odds will be better with HS, approximately by +10%, though it depends on what else we do there (running specs, that is). I'm honestly kinda 50:50 on it, but it is a useful wonder for worker-turns and I don't like flip-flopping after we've already invested in a Theo steal.Mitchum
Deity
Sorry for my absence lately. Work has been crazy. Also, I'll be out this weekend with limited access to Civ. I'll try to keep up with what's going on, but my useful comments will likely be minimal.
Regarding the plan:
Rheims: I'd like to take this city as soon as possible. Swords, cats, maces, I don't care. With our current army of axes, chariots and a sword (maybe one more), we should be able to take it without much issue. We may even capture another worker or two while we get our army in position... Once we own Rheims and have the stone quarried, I'd love a chance at the Hanging Gardens in Moscow (~4 turns to build) if they are still unbuilt. Not likely, but possible.
That stack of city defenders in Marseilles looks a bit daunting (3 archers, 3 spears and 2 axes). Luckily they are cut off from Rheims due to our road pillaging.
Theocracy: Swithing to Theocracy only seems worth it if we plan to push our advantage with maces and cats all the way through Mao (ala bcool). If we are planning to take a few French cities and then stop, then I'm not sure it's worth it to be out of OR for too long (plus the extra turn of anarchy to get out of Theo).
Hagia Sophia: I still think we should build this wonder. I don't think that the worker efficiency is just a side benefit with the GE points being the major benefit. We have a TON of worker turns ahead of us. More efficient workers will help us set up cities that much faster. We can also get started on sending a worker or two up north to start roading and scrubbing in preparation for Operation Iceball.
Iron Works: I don't think we should put it in Moscow even though I brought it up earlier myself. There will be a ton of good options to build it when the time comes. With full-powered workshops, Sid's Sushi and Mining Inc, just about any city with a lot of land tiles can be a hammer powerhouse. I played a space game recently using a Hammer Economy (SE early game and HE mid-to-late game) combined with Mining Inc (no Sid's due to lack of rice and seafood) and I had 10+ cities with 50+ base hammers. Every space part could be built in 6 turns or less and I had 10+ cities to handle the load. I had never really played a HE before (not fully understanding the power of the workshop) and it was very flexible. I could easily switch from building wealth, wonders, units or space parts. I got DOWed in the late game and was able to spit out a modern armor from 10+ cities every one or two turns. I kept the research slider at 100% for the last 100+ turns in the game because I could build wealth in a city or two to keep it going. In our game, we have way more Mining Inc resources (I had 12 IIRC) and Sid's will allow us to build more workshops and fewer farms, making it very probable that we'll have 10+ cities with 90+ base hammers.
BTW, the cost of Mining Inc was negative in my game (a negative cost = a profit...). I had Wall Street in my Mining Inc headquarters. Every time I spread my corporation to a new city, my expenses actually went down because the income in my Wall Street city more than offset the corporation cost in each new city. My HE could produce an executive in 1 turn in most cities, so spreading Mining Inc was very fast and very effective. I think Mining Inc and Sid's Sushi are definitely the way to go in this game.
Regarding advancing the game, Dhoomstriker was adamant about always leaving at least one unit active before uploading the game. He would wake up a city garrison if he had to. That way, a simple accidental press of the space bar would not advance the game but simply skip that unit's turn. Something to consider, although in this case, the impact was nearly zero as it seems we were leaning toward building a sword or three in Moscow anyway.
Edit: x-post with BBP.
Regarding the plan:
Rheims: I'd like to take this city as soon as possible. Swords, cats, maces, I don't care. With our current army of axes, chariots and a sword (maybe one more), we should be able to take it without much issue. We may even capture another worker or two while we get our army in position...
Once we own Rheims and have the stone quarried, I'd love a chance at the Hanging Gardens in Moscow (~4 turns to build) if they are still unbuilt. Not likely, but possible.That stack of city defenders in Marseilles looks a bit daunting (3 archers, 3 spears and 2 axes). Luckily they are cut off from Rheims due to our road pillaging.
Theocracy: Swithing to Theocracy only seems worth it if we plan to push our advantage with maces and cats all the way through Mao (ala bcool). If we are planning to take a few French cities and then stop, then I'm not sure it's worth it to be out of OR for too long (plus the extra turn of anarchy to get out of Theo).
Hagia Sophia: I still think we should build this wonder. I don't think that the worker efficiency is just a side benefit with the GE points being the major benefit. We have a TON of worker turns ahead of us. More efficient workers will help us set up cities that much faster. We can also get started on sending a worker or two up north to start roading and scrubbing in preparation for Operation Iceball.
Iron Works: I don't think we should put it in Moscow even though I brought it up earlier myself. There will be a ton of good options to build it when the time comes. With full-powered workshops, Sid's Sushi and Mining Inc, just about any city with a lot of land tiles can be a hammer powerhouse. I played a space game recently using a Hammer Economy (SE early game and HE mid-to-late game) combined with Mining Inc (no Sid's due to lack of rice and seafood) and I had 10+ cities with 50+ base hammers. Every space part could be built in 6 turns or less and I had 10+ cities to handle the load. I had never really played a HE before (not fully understanding the power of the workshop) and it was very flexible. I could easily switch from building wealth, wonders, units or space parts. I got DOWed in the late game and was able to spit out a modern armor from 10+ cities every one or two turns. I kept the research slider at 100% for the last 100+ turns in the game because I could build wealth in a city or two to keep it going. In our game, we have way more Mining Inc resources (I had 12 IIRC) and Sid's will allow us to build more workshops and fewer farms, making it very probable that we'll have 10+ cities with 90+ base hammers.
BTW, the cost of Mining Inc was negative in my game (a negative cost = a profit...
). I had Wall Street in my Mining Inc headquarters. Every time I spread my corporation to a new city, my expenses actually went down because the income in my Wall Street city more than offset the corporation cost in each new city. My HE could produce an executive in 1 turn in most cities, so spreading Mining Inc was very fast and very effective. I think Mining Inc and Sid's Sushi are definitely the way to go in this game.Regarding advancing the game, Dhoomstriker was adamant about always leaving at least one unit active before uploading the game. He would wake up a city garrison if he had to. That way, a simple accidental press of the space bar would not advance the game but simply skip that unit's turn. Something to consider, although in this case, the impact was nearly zero as it seems we were leaning toward building a sword or three in Moscow anyway.
Edit: x-post with BBP.
Market would be fine with me. Looks like we'll be at low slider for some time.
bcool
Deity
Treb wouldn't be too far behind if he does research feudalism. With upgraded macemen and treb, even longbow might fall. Even if we don't push it with macemen and treb, those veterans from a war with DeG wouldn't necessarily become obsolete.
Macemen with city raider promotions can be upgraded to Riflemen with city raider promotions eventually (and firearm units with city raider promotions are worth the upgrade cost in my experience).
LowtherCastle
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PPP -- Latest addendum
Moscow: sword-market-HS
Fish: galley-mace
Sib: ch(partial)-settler(2pop)
Pigs: sword/mace(2pop T129)-forge
GP: granary(1pop)-library
All three units arrive at Rheims-1SE on T133
Revolt to Rep on T126
Machinery done on T128/9
Trades (T125):
CoL to Roosy for 40g
CoL to Mao for 50g
CoL to dG for 50g (if available after CF)
EDIT: My plan is to settle Bermuda on the pre-scrubbed hill at Sheep-1SW, because this seems to be much more powerful than the grass at Sheep-1W. The final decision will be based on what the warrior shows off the northern coast. THoughts?
Moscow: sword-market-HS
Fish: galley-mace
Sib: ch(partial)-settler(2pop)
Pigs: sword/mace(2pop T129)-forge
GP: granary(1pop)-library
All three units arrive at Rheims-1SE on T133
Revolt to Rep on T126
Machinery done on T128/9
Trades (T125):
CoL to Roosy for 40g
CoL to Mao for 50g
CoL to dG for 50g (if available after CF)
EDIT: My plan is to settle Bermuda on the pre-scrubbed hill at Sheep-1SW, because this seems to be much more powerful than the grass at Sheep-1W. The final decision will be based on what the warrior shows off the northern coast. THoughts?
LowtherCastle
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AI random attitude modifier -- Final Verdict
With Roosy and CHurchill meeting, we finally have enough info to specify exactly the random numbers everyone except Stalin rolled. The significance for us is that we know where Gandhi stands with de Gaulle. We will become Gandhi's worst enemy if his visible attitude for us is -5 compared to de Gaulle. For example, right now, if we were to lose our +2 for fair trade, wed become Gandhi's WE and he wouldn't trade with us anymore. We should be okay until we DoW Gandhi.
Mao rolled a 2, the others all 1.
With Roosy and CHurchill meeting, we finally have enough info to specify exactly the random numbers everyone except Stalin rolled. The significance for us is that we know where Gandhi stands with de Gaulle. We will become Gandhi's worst enemy if his visible attitude for us is -5 compared to de Gaulle. For example, right now, if we were to lose our +2 for fair trade, wed become Gandhi's WE and he wouldn't trade with us anymore. We should be okay until we DoW Gandhi.
Mao rolled a 2, the others all 1.
LowtherCastle
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Btw, CHurchill just completed the ToA in London.
bcool
Deity
I'm good with the PPP. It will take some skill and a bit of luck to get the GG in time to build 5 xp catapults.
(the other possibility would be to use the GG to lead a stack of units and spread some xp to the catapults to get them to 5+xp) We might be able to get the 10 xp unit this way for the Heroic Epic as well. Would allow us to build units while we wait for the GG to be born...
Even leading a catapult with a GG isn't too bad (I really like the extra movement promotion for a GG leading an artillery unit--allows you to bombard the same turn you move the stack adjacent to the city)
--Although the other options for a GG promotions are probably better ( the leadership promotion gets a very powerful unit quickly and might get us a maceman with city raider 3, combat 1, & cover-- those kind of macemen can take even protective leader's longbows down)
We might want to give Rosey more than just CoL. CoL alone won't be enough for a +1 fair trade bonus (at least that was the case in the test game)
(the other possibility would be to use the GG to lead a stack of units and spread some xp to the catapults to get them to 5+xp) We might be able to get the 10 xp unit this way for the Heroic Epic as well. Would allow us to build units while we wait for the GG to be born...
Even leading a catapult with a GG isn't too bad (I really like the extra movement promotion for a GG leading an artillery unit--allows you to bombard the same turn you move the stack adjacent to the city)
--Although the other options for a GG promotions are probably better ( the leadership promotion gets a very powerful unit quickly and might get us a maceman with city raider 3, combat 1, & cover-- those kind of macemen can take even protective leader's longbows down)
We might want to give Rosey more than just CoL. CoL alone won't be enough for a +1 fair trade bonus (at least that was the case in the test game)
Mitchum
Deity
This looks good to me. I have a few questions:
Where is this settler headed? Bananas or Bhamas?
When you say all three units, I assume you are referring to the sword in Delhi plus the sword and mace from Pigs, right? That is in addition to our existing chariots, axes and sword built last turn, right? This should be more than enough to take out Rheims and start marching northward toward his capital.
Arrival by T133 should give you enough time to caputure another worker or three too!
Mitchum
Deity
Do the AI get one roll that is applied to all leaders? I thought it was a more complex thing where each AI rolled a number vs. every other AI, creating a matrix. Or are the rolls you mentioned above each AI's roll vs. us?
LowtherCastle
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@bcool: I like that idea the best. We could attach the GG to a warrior in the same tile as other units we want to increase the XP, such as 5-5-5-5, assuming that the warrior-mace wins a battle and then has 10XP, or 7-7-6 for the guaranteed HE. That kind of gives us the best of both worlds, plus we're ready for Paris sooner too.
@Mitchum: Bermuda! I was planning to settle on the hill, btw, but first we'll see what else the warrior exposes. The hill gives more hammers and coastal tiles in the long run. I would be sending a third worker over to help scrub.
Each AI rolls a random number from 0-2 at the beginning of the game. It's call ed his "PeaceWeightRand." That's his random value and it's used in calculating his "peace weight" in relation to each other AI. Here's the formula. It's this formula that makes Gandhi hate de Gaulle so much, because Gandhi's BasPeaceWeight is 10 and de Gaulle's is 0. They basically guaranteed to hate each other. It's also why Roosy and Gandhi like each other as much as they do.
Edit: PPP edited with rationale for settling at Sheep-1SW.
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@Mitchum: Bermuda! I was planning to settle on the hill, btw, but first we'll see what else the warrior exposes. The hill gives more hammers and coastal tiles in the long run. I would be sending a third worker over to help scrub.
Each AI rolls a random number from 0-2 at the beginning of the game. It's call ed his "PeaceWeightRand." That's his random value and it's used in calculating his "peace weight" in relation to each other AI. Here's the formula. It's this formula that makes Gandhi hate de Gaulle so much, because Gandhi's BasPeaceWeight is 10 and de Gaulle's is 0. They basically guaranteed to hate each other. It's also why Roosy and Gandhi like each other as much as they do.
Edit: PPP edited with rationale for settling at Sheep-1SW.
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Mitchum
Deity
PPP looks good. When can you play, assuming you get approval from mdy and/or bbp?
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