SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

mdy · Dec 13, 2010

spy is much better because it's the most overpowered specialist when you're running any sort of espionage economy. 4bpt+4eppt = 8 commodities versus 6 for scientists and eps are more valuable than beakers at this point in the game.

I don't think this is really true, yes a spy does produce more raw commerce, however as far as I can see we are at the point where we can produce all the espionage we need without it, so the extra espionage is effectively useless. We would effectively be trading 1 base beaker for 2 hammers.

We do want both spys and engineers, however if the RNG decides to screw us I feel we should keep the option open of generating a GE with as high odds as possible. It would be a pity to miss out on a golden age because the RNG gave us 3 spys and no engineers. By far the easiest place to get a GE is Siberia which suggests hiring an engineer there instead of a spy.

LowtherCastle · Dec 13, 2010

Mitchum said:
Playing in 30 minutes. I'll check back here before I do for any last words of wisdom.

Enjoy!!! Not only is this the most important turnset of the whole game, it's also the most awesome. I can hardly wait. And I'm not even talking about the war plans which are affected by the RNG. Very complicated turnset... Go for it!

LowtherCastle · Dec 13, 2010

mdy said:
I don't think this is really true, yes a spy does produce more raw commerce, however as far as I can see we are at the point where we can produce all the espionage we need without it, so the extra espionage is effectively useless. We would effectively be trading 1 base beaker for 2 hammers.

We do want both spys and engineers, however if the RNG decides to screw us I feel we should keep the option open of generating a GE with as high odds as possible. It would be a pity to miss out on a golden age because the RNG gave us 3 spys and no engineers. By far the easiest place to get a GE is Siberia which suggests hiring an engineer there instead of a spy.

I was comparing a spy to a sci. A spy compares even more favorably to an engineer. 1b+4ep versus 2h. We still need eps as fast as we can get them to be able to get Steam Power and for all we know RepParts, Astro, Democracy, and even possibly Rifling, depending on how fast we beat Roosy down. But we don't really need to compare them because we can also hire both, if we want, especially after Sushi.

But mdy, a GSpy is also more valuable than a GE, as I see it. I posted this earlier:

Code:

GAge  GM GS GA GP GE GSpy
  2   no ye 
  3   no no no
  4   no [COLOR="Blue"]ye[/COLOR] no no                 [COLOR="blue"]Physics[/COLOR]
  5   no no no no no  
Total  4  2  3  2  1     = 12 GPs


  6   no no no no [COLOR="blue"]ye[/COLOR] no           [COLOR="blue"]Fusion[/COLOR]
Total  5  3  4  3  1  1  = 17 GPs

Note: Prophets/GEs/GSpies are interchangeable. We need them in any useful combination.

If we got 3 GSpies and no more GEs, your hypothetical scenario, that's no problem for us whatsoever. We don't need another GE for GAs 2-5. We'd only need it for GA 6, and for that we'll get a free GE with Fusion anyway. And that's not a trivial thought, btw, because it's precisely for the two engines that we most need the final GA.

We would of course need at least 1 GE or 1 GProphet for GA 5.

-------------

Also, eps will be useful throughout the game, especially if Roosy gets Democracy, because we'll want to knock him out of Emancipation every 5t or so.

babybluepants · Dec 13, 2010

I agree with mdy on GE in Siberia. We'll have at least two spy farms (Beijing and Bermuda), with some odds elsewhere (esp. Bahamas if we want to). GE will be basically impossible to get anywhere but Siberia or Moscow (with very low odds).

Some more turns of 1 spy won't affect a 2000+ gpp too, too much, though. If it helps move us along, let's stick with original plan.

Good luck, Mitchum!

Edit: xpost w LC

Mitchum · Dec 13, 2010

Playing now. Anything said from here on will be duly ignored until the last segment of my turnset. You've been warned.

LowtherCastle · Dec 13, 2010

babybluepants said:
I agree with mdy on GE in Siberia. We'll have at least two spy farms (Beijing and Bermuda), with some odds elsewhere (esp. Bahamas if we want to). GE will be basically impossible to get anywhere but Siberia or Moscow (with very low odds).

Some more turns of 1 spy won't affect a 2000+ gpp too, too much, though. If it helps move us along, let's stick with original plan.

By my calcs, if we work only engineers in Siberia, it will reach 2000gpps around T238. I haven't done precise calcs on how fast we'll reach the 2000GP level, but I assume it will be before that. I wouldn't be surprised if Siberia doesn't produce a GP before we working on GA#6, if we work only engineers. Maybe Mitchum will do some GP calcs on that after his turnset.

I don't disagree with mdy's basic idea at all. It's just that we've already slotted the 1000 and 1100gp GPs for Moscow and Pigs, and after Sushi, we'll be producing GPs from cities that are working 15 or more specialists. So I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect Siberia to pop any GP working a limited amount.

That's why I looked at it from the perspective of how we can satisfy the requirements for GAs. For the 6th GA, a GE is the one GP we don't need to create (Fusion). That tells me that the smartest thing we can do is have cities that are not GE or GP or GSpy specialized, but rather cities that are GE+GP+GSpy specialized. Such cities can compete with CS-specialized GP farms.

We need 6 GE/GP/GSpies for the 4th, 5th, and 6th GAs.

THe other consideration is that artist specialists are what we least want to run, but we'll need 4 of them to get to the 6th GA, or 3 to the 5th. Unless...we work work lots and lots of GE/GP/GSpies, which are all better than artists. The more GE/GP/GSpies we produce, the fewer artists we'll need to run. Ideally, we only need one Great Artist--for the 6th GA.

bcool · Dec 13, 2010

Anyone else worried about Mitchum? :scared:

no news is good news I suppose...

This will be an exciting turn report...

LowtherCastle · Dec 13, 2010

Nah, I don't think anything can go seriously wrong. More likely seriously right.

I think he's just playing carefully and concentrating. No news is good news.

Mitchum · Dec 13, 2010

Whew. Save uploaded for those of you who can't wait. I'll post a better report soon, but here is the log:

Spoiler :

babybluepants · Dec 13, 2010

Can't wait a few hours? Relax, boys. :cool:

Edit: xpost w Mitchum :lol:

Mitchum · Dec 13, 2010

Turnset report:

T192:
Roosevelt finished Angkor Wat. No fail gold. :cry:

Our spy was "found" in Troy. :cry:

Sell PP to CHuchill for 140 gold (should have been Education?)
Gandhi has no gold, so no map selling.
Rax in GP Farm. I could have sworn I cancelled that. :blush:

T193:
Gandhi asks for Guilds. Nope. He's still cautious.
Lost a cannon at 97.5% odds. :cry:

Lost a musket at 97.1% odds... vs. a catapult! :cry:

Can't take Tours because he moved several units in IBT. :cry:

I attack anyway getting the city down to a single defender.
Gandhi still has no gold.
Churchill moves his stack to Marseille-SE to threaten 9 workers! :eek:

I play cat and mouse with him.

T194:
Troy's culture discount is down to 41%. Vlad's is still 50%.
Lost another cannon at 94.1% odds. :cry:

Tours is now ours.
Churchill moves his stack back to Marseilles and moves 2 LBs and an axe toward Orleans, which I left defended with a single archer. :eek:

Don't worry. I had it covered. Killed 2 LBs and an axe in the open. :goodjob:

Our spy near Tours was "found" so one of our two eyes was just poked out! He wasn't even near any units or cities...
Sell maps to Roosevelt (70g) and Gandhi (75g)

T195:
Stalin settles Novgorod.
Churchill gets a GProphet (please settle him!!).
Churchill will talk.
I F'ed up and can't complete the Kremlin next turn. :blush:

Total failed gold from the Kremlin will be 600, on the nose. :cool:

Medicine should be ours in about 3 turns. :goodjob:

Can't wait to whip a few executives!!
I'm building wealth temporarily in a few cities until we decide what to build there.
We can sabotage Gandhi's monument in Galley city at 95% odds.

Mitchum · Dec 13, 2010

LowtherCastle said:
Maybe Mitchum will do some GP calcs on that after his turnset.

I have no idea how to do the match once we start spreading Sushi. :crazyeye:

LowtherCastle said:
I don't disagree with mdy's basic idea at all. It's just that we've already slotted the 1000 and 1100gp GPs for Moscow and Pigs.

The GP after next will be 1200 gpp, btw.

bcool · Dec 13, 2010

I F'ed up and can't complete the Kremlin next turn.

sure you can with the OR bonus

bummer on the those battles but we are in a good position to slaughter those axes, spears, and catapults.

I'll have to take a closer look for any more feedback.

babybluepants · Dec 13, 2010

War's looking good. :goodjob:

Too bad about the cannons, but what can you do? Edit: too busy to take a closer look right now, but it seems like crushing that stack this turn will basically do the trick. I'm sure we'll see some resistance moving on York-London, but nothing we can't handle. As LC would say: Onward!

~~We should be able to complete Kremlin if we revolt to OR.~~ Edit: xpost w bcool

babybluepants · Dec 13, 2010

GP math: I don't have experience with this kind of massive Sushi game either. 6-GP golden age sounds insane (even a 5-GP one does, frankly). Also not sure how to even calculate. I'll look into it this week. I don't disagree with what you're saying, LC, just need to think further about the math involved.

LowtherCastle · Dec 13, 2010

Well, this is awesome. The war with Churchill will unfortunately plod along a bit since we'll have to rake up a pile of dung he left in France. It should fertilize Moscow with another GG quite well, though. Throw in a stable and Moscow will produce 10XP Knights.

Unfortunately, things didn't really get any less complicated. We need to sort out all our buildings now. What we need, what we don't need. Whether we really need slavery or not. All that. I was hoping we'd be a bit closer to capturing Hastings so we could see if we could squeeze an FP poprush in there. Doesn't look like it now.

Mitchum, do you have a pretty good idea of how our infra will go during the slavery period?

babybluepants · Dec 13, 2010

Wonder if we wanna use the brief OR spell to build a Grocer in Moscow. It would be quite useful at this point for +4 health.

With 600g in Kremlin failure coming, maybe we can upgrade some more trebs and still finish Medicine on good schedule?

I don't think Slavery is necessary, but it would def. be quite useful. I'm still in favour.

bcool · Dec 13, 2010

Not sure how this works, but Rosey is cautious with us and in war prep mode (does it show the fist if he at war already? or does this mean he is preparing to hit someone else (like us?))

edit: gandhi is in war prep too, does that mean he is gunning for someone (or has he been in this mode for a loooooong time?)

Rheims might want to build another caravel (Churchill has a CII trireme which could kill our existing caravel)
Do we want to blockade London? With our wounded trireme with caravel support?

Kamchatka might want to run an artist to pop borders closer to the time we will likely get mining corp (and thus give us access to the iron) Scratch that, culture from Sushi will do that for us...

Fish might want to take a Gold mine from Moscow so Moscow can run a farm or specialist?

In 2 turns we will get a glimpse of Rosey's research and a shot at corporation in Vlad.

bcool · Dec 13, 2010

Those units approaching Hastings are actually under some threat. Churchill's C1 macemen have favorable odds against our city raiding macemen. Maybe retreat one turn upgrade some treb and approach again?

I guess we can pull back our spy to see if there are any other units in the area. If it is only that nearby crossbow and macemen then they will be okay.

bcool · Dec 13, 2010

editted

Since we are so close to medicine we have to consider going to Free Market (+ slavery, OR, Bureaucracy?)

I know we are not ready for FM but whipping buildings we could get ready fast.

Looking at it we have a lot to whip (courthouses needed in Fish and Moscow, banks, WS, FP, )

but Sushi food would accelerate our recovery from whipping and really boost our population for the next GA. It would boost our production and accelerate production of WS (maybe even opening up the possibility of whipping WS)

Right now Sushi +10 food I think
Maintenance cost estimates for corporation Inflation doesn't increase these costs
40 gold for a pop 14 city (-1 * 4 + 20resources * 1 std map) * (14 pop +17)/18 * 1.3 (emperor difficulty * 0.75 free market)
Courthouse!!! -50% or 20 gold with courthouse

-8 for market, grocer, bank in Fish by the time we fish medicine
12 gold for 10 food!!!

It isn't obvious that state property is better than free market.

Every population we get from Sushi will be magnified by the next golden age. We even could dip into State Property if we find that the Sushi costs are too much initially.

We might take a slightly less than ideal location of FP (but could whip it like LC suggested) in Shanghai or something else. Or if we stay in Nationhood we could build the Palace there and FP in GP Farm? So we could move the Palace later to more Ideal location.

I'm not entirely convinced by my own arguments but a earlier Sushi is definitely something we have to consider.

SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

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