SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

we can generate a great person in Moscow T198 (running 8 specials, might be able to tweak a little) And the next great person T121 in Pigs

With a time warp like that, I don't see how any other teams stand a chance...

Judging from your spreadsheet, that should be T201, right?

 

[LowtherCastle]

In that case I think we should stay in pacifism/state property/caste system for now, and revolt at the start of the next golden age. If we generate our next GP in pigs this should occur in 4 turns time.

Revolt to what exactly at the start of the next golden age?

 

[bcool]

And the next great person T121 in Pigs

okay brain is working correctly now

 

[babybluepants]

Revolt to what exactly at the start of the next golden age?

I think we should go into Slavery now, try to speed up Pigs as per bcool's suggestion above, then switch to Bureau/FM, switch back to Caste on T+5 from there? Does Police State speed up execs, btw? Edit: I think not.

 

[babybluepants]

Off-topic

Fellow psychopaths, Big Brother is happy to report that we are now in sole possession of second place in all time SGOTM post count, with more than a month to go before the deadline. :suicide:

 

[mdy]

Running 8 specialist in Moscow this turn and for 3 more turns + 4 specialist the last turn gets us a great person there T198 even under OR actually it would be T120 T200 under OR
(we give up the gold mines or one gold mine to fish and give up the horses or a workshop)

The problem with this is, that the GP generated in Moscow will probably be a GS, and as the other GP we have generated is also a scientist we won't be able to use it to start our next golden age.

Revolt to what exactly at the start of the next golden age?

Free Market and temporarily slavery/organised religion to whip some infrastructure. I think representation will be more useful than state property. We don't need the unit production bonus, and I can't how see the reduction in war weariness can make up in representation, especially as we can build jails now. Remember representation give us + 3 happys in our biggest cities, where war weariness would be most significant.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Do we need the next GA before we want to switch to FM and spam Sushi Execs?

 

[Mitchum]

OK, so I think we have several options here, but I still like Slavery, OR and SP.

LC wanted our next GP from Moscow, but this isn't required, right? If we run the civics above and if our goal is to get a great person that is least likely to be a GS, we should run all 8 spec slots in Pigs (but not in Moscow). This would give us ~ 85% chance of a non-GS on T201.

Moscow's GP can come when it comes. I don't see the need to speed up Moscow's GP. I would rather Moscow keep pumping out cannons for our wars.

If we do this, there will only be 5 turns between GA's. If we learn Medicine in 4 turns (3 turns is unlikely when not in a GA, even with the failed gold), that would be T199. So we've only really missed out on 2 turns of Sushi.

The slavery/OR combination will allow us to whip granaries, courthouses, banks (i.e. sooner Wall Street) and grocers (for happiness). Mdy wasn't sure if we should whip our mature cities. Well, I would agree if we were only getting 45 /pop. But with forge+OR+slavery, we'll get 71 . And with Sushi around the corner, it won't take long to re-grow our pop.

 

[Mitchum]

Do we need the next GA before we want to switch to FM and spam Sushi Execs?

No. We could switch to FM now. bbp was going to work on a test game to see what the impact to our economy would be if we revolted to FM now. If we're also in slavery, getting courthouses on line quickly in all but Hammer City will not be a problem.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, let me rephrase that... My question is:

Do we need to start the next GA before we are ready to spam Sushi Execs?

 

[bcool]

So options are (feel free to add advanatages and disadvantages)
1) switch to OR, slavery, SP, Representation, Nationhood
--don't accelerate Moscow's gpp
--try to get GM in Pigs with 8 specialists
----if we don't get it switch to FM without a GA (2 turns anarchy right with just FM switch?)

advantages
better whips, save GA for better time?, Moscows makes cannons--> war with Rosey starts sooner
disadvantages
2 turns of anarchy or delayed sushi switch?

1.5) switch to OR, slavery, SP, Represetnation, Nationhood
--accelerate Moscow's gpp
--try to get GM in Pigs with 8 specialists
----if we don't get it switch to FM without a GA

advantages
better whips, better chance at GA makes executives easier to build now faster spread of sushi?,
disadvantages
Moscows makes 2 fewer cannons?

2) switch to Pacifism, slavery, SP, Representation, Nationhood
--don't accelerate Moscow
--try to get GM in Pigs asap
-----Switch to FM with GA if get GM, or switch without GA

advantages
Starts GA likely near time we would like to spam Sushi, Moscows makes cannons--> war with Rosey starts sooner

3) switch to Pacifism, slavery, SP, Rep, Nationhood
--accelerate Moscow (even though the odds are GS there are significant odds it won't be)
--try to get GM in Pigs asap as well
-----Switch to FM with most likely guaranteed GA

advantages
Most likely GA, GA timed to Sushi start spreading executives easier
disadvantages
, Moscows makes 2 fewer cannons

4) switch to OR, slavery, FM, Rep, Nationhood now
--don't accelerate Moscow
--try to get GM in Pigs (not that important) still important since we need to get out of slavery and OR

advantages
starts Sushi the earliest, guarantees we avoid 2 turns of anarchy
good but not the best whips
+1 trade route earlier

disadvantages
Moscow builds fewer cannons (needs to whip courthouse, spam executives in 3-4 turns?)
higher maintenance costs
loses production bonus of SP, food from workshops

 

[Mitchum]

Corp costs attached for reference.

I'm having trouble understanding this spreadsheet. Is it saying:

1. It will cost 70 gold to spread a corporation to one of our cities and 139 gold to spread it to an AI city.

2. Mantenance, with a CH, will be 14.5 gold/turn for Mining and 29.6 gold/turn for Sushi.

3. The net figures (where you subtracted 12 from the CH column), take into acount the gold gained in Fish due to the extra 200% multiplier on commerce there.

So if this is true, it tells me that as long as we can put those extra 20/turn and 22.5/turn to some use that generates more than 20.09 gpt and cover the initial spread cost of 70 gold/city, we're golden.

Did I interpret things correctly?

 

[mdy]

Another option is to revolt to free market immediately which would allow us to delay the next golden age without suffering any anarchy.

 

[Mitchum]

Do we need to start the next GA before we are ready to spam Sushi Execs?

No. As long as we're not in SP, we can found Sid's in Fish and spam Sushi Execs. We should have both Medicine and Corporations in the next 3-4 turns. At that point, we could begin spamming execs.

Fish could interupt the WS builds and build (whip?) a quick exec for Moscow. Moscow could build one or two execs in place of cannons and spread Sushi to one or two other hammer-rich cities, which could then start pumping out execs non-stop.

So, our options are:

1. Revolt to FM now and found Sushi in 3-4 turns.
2. Stay in SP, spawn a non-GS great person, trigger a GA, revolt to FM, found Sushi.
3. Stay in SP, revolt to FM with 3? turns of anarchy, found Sushi.

 

[Mitchum]

I'm going to take a quick crack at a FM vs. SP test game right now. I hope no one else is working on it in parallel...

The hardest thing to get right will be the trade routes, which are out of our control. But I think it's possible to force OB with the AI in the test game, right?

 

[bcool]

Another option is to revolt to free market immediately which would allow us to delay the next golden age without suffering any anarchy.

I think we would want slavery--that is pretty hard to give up with the Kremlin.
So even with an immediate switch to FM we would still want to switch out of slavery (and possibly OR) so we couldn't delay the GA too long or would get anarchy when we went out of slavery.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

lurker's comment:

Fellow psychopaths (...)

Yes?
...
Congratulations (though if was pretty clear after a few days of discussion....)

 

[bcool]

The hardest thing to get right will be the trade routes, which are out of our control. But I think it's possible to force OB with the AI in the test game, right?

In diplo section you can artificially give us diplo bonuses and thus make a open borders agreement, but the slider for giving those artificial diplo bonuses is a bit buggy (at least for me)

 

[babybluepants]

I'm having trouble understanding this spreadsheet. Is it saying:

1. It will cost 70 gold to spread a corporation to one of our cities and 139 gold to spread it to an AI city.

2. Mantenance, with a CH, will be 14.5 gold/turn for Mining and 29.6 gold/turn for Sushi.

3. The net figures (where you subtracted 12 from the CH column), take into acount the gold gained in Fish due to the extra 200% multiplier on commerce there.

So if this is true, it tells me that as long as we can put those extra 20/turn and 22.5/turn to some use that generates more than 20.09 gpt and cover the initial spread cost of 70 gold/city, we're golden.

Did I interpret things correctly?

1. Yes, spreading to foreign cities is twice as expensive.
2. Maintenance is proportional to number of resources being consumed by the corp. Hence, higher for Sushi. (# of reso is a rough estimate in my spreadsheet)
3. Yes

The total investment in spreading is 200h for execs and 140-180g for spread (changes with inflation). Otherwise, yes, we just need to cover the turn costs and spread cost for it to pay off, I guess. Though, you could argue for more in opportunity costs from running execs out of top cities. In any case, it easily pays off in the long term.

 

[babybluepants]

How many turns of anarchy is FM?

Edit: The other reason we don't really wanna delay the next GA is all the Slavery-Caste Bureau-Nat OR-Pac switching, though.