SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[Mitchum]

I'm getting funky numbers for poprushing using the test save, as in:

With 1.25 hammer multiplier:
1pop = 55h
2pop = 110h
3pop = 167h

With 1.5 hammer multiplier:
1pop = 65h
2pop = 134h
3pop = more than 199h

ANyone else getting this?

Here are the numbers I got when running this test several days ago. I did this by whipping 2, 3 or 4 pops, but I didn't run every single combination.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I have to say, I'm a bit uneasy about our general strategy for this turnset. We're talking about switching soon to FM but we haven't resolved anything with Versailles/FP/Palace. mdy's idea about building Versailles somewhere makes sense. I'm thinking GP Farm . Meanwhile we move our Palace (Beijing, GUangzhou?). That leaves FP for Hastings.

Problem with moving our Palace is it screws up St Nick. But the problem with Versailles and FP is that we only have one site which is appropriate for a permanent decision: GP Farm. Beijing is useful now, be mediocre long term. Is this one of those situations where we just put FP in Beijing asap and forget about optimizing it? Or Versailles in Beijing? Or FP in Beijing and Versailles in GP Farm? MOve the Palace much later, when we're not stealing techs any more?

I'm also uneasy about starting our GA so soon if we're still poprushing left and right.

I guess I can see flipping to FM now, if it's not too expensive and starting to spread Sushi asap, but starting the next GA only after we're thoroughly done poprushing.

 

[Mitchum]

Are you sure that you didn't get 111h for 2 pop at 1.25 multiplier? That would make sense:

55.75 * 1 = 55
55.75 * 2 = 111
55.75 * 3 = 167

 

[LowtherCastle]

Here are the numbers I got when running this test several days ago. I did this by whipping 2, 3 or 4 pops, but I didn't run every single combination.

How do you get fractions? What I'm trying to do is figure out how many hammers have to be in the build before we go from a 2pop to a 1pop, etc.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Are you sure that you didn't get 111h for 2 pop at 1.25 multiplier? That would make sense:

55.75 * 1 = 55
55.75 * 2 = 111 120 - 9 = 111 => 3poprush
55.75 * 3 = 167

What I got was that I could only 3pop a forge in Cuba with 9h in it, and 2pop the forge with 10h in it.

See for yourself:

 

[Mitchum]

I have to say, I'm a bit uneasy about our general strategy for this turnset. We're talking about switching soon to FM but we haven't resolved anything with Versailles/FP/Palace.

This was an oversight on my part by leaving it out of the PPP. Sorry.

I'm open to recommendations on where to put FP/Versailles/Palace and I can work it into the plan. I agree that we don't want to run another GA right away and revolt out of Slavery if we still have a lot of pop-rushing to do. Can't we finish the FP (or Verseilles) in Beijing, for example, in the next 7 to 8 turns? It may not be optimized long-term, but is solves the immediate issue with revolting to FM and it's not a horrible location.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I think the problem with the poprushing numbers is truncation and we simply don't know when what's getting truncated.

 

[Mitchum]

How do you get fractions? What I'm trying to do is figure out how many hammers have to be in the build before we go from a 2pop to a 1pop, etc.

I whipped 3, 4 or 5 pops, figured out how many total hammers I got, and divided by the number of pops that were whipped.

EDIT: x-post with LC. Yes, it must be a truncation issue.

 

[bcool]

Paris should build one of our banks since it has a religious shrine.

 

[babybluepants]

I have to say, I'm a bit uneasy about our general strategy for this turnset. We're talking about switching soon to FM but we haven't resolved anything with Versailles/FP/Palace.

I guess I can see flipping to FM now, if it's not too expensive and starting to spread Sushi asap, but starting the next GA only after we're thoroughly done poprushing.

I agree with you, but what you say in the two sentences seems kinda contradictory. It seems we're flipping opinions a lot and I'm also uncomfortable with that. This is probably a bit of a problem in going Sushi ahead of Mining (which I'm not questioning, btw - it's justified by resource availability). The transition period is slightly easier to handle with lots of hammers potentially going into wealth.

Are we too worried about losing turn to anarchy?

frankly, I don't really understand the mechanics of distance maintenance. Does anyone know the math? Intuitively, something like NYC-Canterbury seems better than Beijing-Hastings.

Edit: my inclination is to go with less than optimized on this, because we could benefit from it earlier. I.E. put FP in Beijing asap.
Edit2: also worried about Roosevelt building Versailles in a stupid spot (like maybe Seattle right now).

 

[Mitchum]

Paris should build one of our banks since it has a religious shrine.

I needed that input 40 hours ago...

We can always build another bank, our seventh one, in Paris. Or we could drop a bank out of one of the other cities that I so carefully planned with hammer overflow last turnset.

EDIT: I'm all for not building a bank if we don't need it.

 

[babybluepants]

Yeah, Paris makes sense for that reason, if it doesn't slow things down. Drop one of the others, I think - we really only need 6.
Edit: looks like we could 3pop it in Paris on T197 if we start now. Delays CH, esp. if we wanna complete the knight right now.

 

[Mitchum]

Yeah, Paris makes sense for that reason, if it doesn't slow things down. Drop one of the others, I think - we really only need 6.
Edit: looks like we could 3pop it in Paris on T197 if we start now. Delays CH, esp. if we wanna complete the knight right now.

Of the six bank cities, I think taking it out of GP Farm makes the most sense. I'll add it to the next version of the PPP.

I'll update the PPP once we zero in on the three key open items:

1. War plans for Churchill (hasn't been discussed much yet)
2. Where to put FP/Versailles
3. Which civics we're going to switch to on this turn
4. Anything else?

EDIT: I would go bank -> CH -> knight in Paris. We can delay the knight with no major issues or lost hammers.

EDIT 2: I'm waiting for General LC to hand me my war plans (assumes mine are too slow again) ...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Anyway, Mitchum, thanks for the PPP. I can't do it justice tonight, but here's a dump of thoughts I've gathered that seem to relate to it.

1. I don't think Marseilles will work for Steam Power. Too expensive. Instead I suggest we scrap Copper CIty for now and settle Rheims-4E instead. But we don't want to settle it till we have a ConfuMiss standing there ready to spread Confucianism (both Judaism and BUddhism are closer than Confu ...fool me once, shame on you...). But this doesn't necessarily delay your plan to capture Marseilles, because we could CF, gift Marseilles, then 4E, whenever we're ready. But we wouldn't want to wait too long with the ConfuMiss, just because of Steam Power.
2. Bahamas could use a ConfuMiss asap. I'd do it between Kremlin and the bank, if we decide to go OR.
3. Let's scrub the two Galley CIty/GP Farm river tiles while Galley CIty is still in revolt. Maybe Gandhi will farm them for us.
4. I'd rather skip the bank in GP Farm, if we can find some other place to build it. Rather NatPark-Versailles. GP Farm should run sci anyway, if possible. And I would go max production in GP Farm.
5. Send the medic axe to the Orleans battle zone (meant to suggest this last go-around...).
6. I agree with whoever said we need research multipliers in every city. Ultimately, our Max Research Capacity will determine how fast we finish. We might consider proprushing a mess of unis. Of course, Mining, Inc will also enable cities to build them.
7. Absolutely agree with bcool on seeing Roosy's current research before stealing Corporation. We MUST know if he's researching RepParts, or alternatively, if he's almost done with whatever else he's researching. We'll need plenty of cash to spam Sushi, so we might consider gonig 0% research, as you said.
8. Moscow and Fish also need courthouses. Build ch in Fish this turn instead of Versailles failed gold. Idea: Maybe a ch poprush overflow into Sushi Exec #1 can get him done in 1t?
9. You can poprush multiple buildings in Fish on the same turn and put them in the queue. It just depends on whether you want to grow back faster (smaller granary) or want more population for working some hammers or whatever.
10. The Cuban settler will be too late for this poprush cycle, I'm afraid. So...maybe better to 2pop a forge, then 3pop the bank. Without the forge bonus, we'll have to 4pop the bank, so basically we're getting the forge for 1pop. But my testing shows you'll have to put 10h into the forge this turn to be able to 2pop it next turn. That means a couple of citizen specialists (big deal--it saves a pop).
11. Bahamas: maybe jail before the market. That's a healthy 50% EP bonus. Same thing for Bermuda sooner or later.

That's as far as I've gotten. Time to crash and burn.

 

[babybluepants]

I'm not sure about taking Marseilles. We'll take some time to reduce him to 3 cities, so keeping Marseilles-Copper open for tech stealing seems like the safer way to go.

Edit: xpost Ok, so gift back if needed. I keep forgetting we can gift it regardless of distance.

 

[bcool]

I'm going to address option #4

Switching to FM, Slavery, OR, Nationhood, Rep

I propose FP in Beijing, Versailles in Bermuda, and move the capital as needed later in the game to make the maintenance costs a bit better.
Beijing can whip 5 pop? the FP next turn and still run 3 spies and its food. Cuts our maintenance by ~29 gold in the test game (less I suppose if we whip those courthouses in nearby Chinese cities)
Versailles in Bermuda because it can build it fast and it will be close to several new cities that will have big maintenance costs and no courthouses for some time. Plus it is spread out from Beijing.
eventually will help with maintenance if we want to keep Stalin's cities for ourselves.
Option of moving the Capital into Churchill's area for maintenance reduction then into Rosey then into Gandhi to keep maintenance costs low.

Immediate savings in maintenance perferred over more ideal locations later in my opinion. Plus moving capital option is on the table for later ideal coverage.

This option comes with a heavy upfront cost though
Maintenance is 440 initially in test game compared to 302 SP, Pacifism, Nationhood, Slavery, Rep (my 2nd choice)
Commerce goes up by 51 though

Production goes down a bit with bonus hammers lost from not being in SP

Has OR and slavery can stay with this for some time so that we can whip everything that we want.
Sushi spread starts as soon as possible.

 

[Mitchum]

I'm not sure about taking Marseilles. We'll take some time to reduce him to 3 cities, so keeping Marseilles-Copper open for tech stealing seems like the safer way to go.

Edit: xpost Ok, so gift back if needed. I keep forgetting we can gift it regardless of distance.

I think bcool suggested that we just skip Marseilles for now. I think this makes the most sense. I'll keep 3 muskets at Marseilles-2W in case he tries anything funny. All other units can head to the war, either walking south or heading east and hopping on galleys to hit Churchill's western cities.

 

[Mitchum]

I'm going to address option #4

Switching to FM, Slavery, OR, Nationhood, Rep

I propose FP in Beijing, Versailles in Bermuda, and move the capital as needed later in the game to make the maintenance costs a bit better.
Beijing can whip 5 pop? the FP next turn and still run 3 spies and its food. Cuts our maintenance by ~29 gold in the test game (less I suppose if we whip those courthouses in nearby Chinese cities)
Versailles in Bermuda because it can build it fast and it will be close to several new cities that will have big maintenance costs and no courthouses for some time. Plus it is spread out from Beijing.
eventually will help with maintenance if we want to keep Stalin's cities for ourselves.
Option of moving the Capital into Churchill's area for maintenance reduction then into Rosey then into Gandhi to keep maintenance costs low.

Immediate savings in maintenance perferred over more ideal locations later in my opinion. Plus moving capital option is on the table for later ideal coverage.

This option comes with a heavy upfront cost though
Maintenance is 440 initially in test game compared to 302 SP, Pacifism, Nationhood, Slavery, Rep (my 2nd choice)
Commerce goes up by 51 though

Production goes down a bit with bonus hammers lost from not being in SP

Has OR and slavery can stay with this for some time so that we can whip everything that we want.
Sushi spread starts as soon as possible.

I like this plan a lot because it gives us flexibility on when to run our next GA without delaying Sushi. I've always wanted Slavery/OR (in case you couldn't tell) but have been too busy to compare SP and FM with the test game.

I also like your proposed locations for FP and Verseilles. I can whip the bank to get overflow hammers into Versailles in Bermuda (I had planned on building it without whipping initially).

Whipping 5 pops into the FP is a bit steep. I wonder if we can whip 3 pops into one building and 2 pops into some other unit/building and use the overflow to build the FP while getting a "free" building and unit/building out of the deal. This needs to be tested and would slow down the FP a bit as we build a building and a unit/building for a turn each so as not to whip from scratch.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Whatever you decide to do with Marseilles, it has walls now, so it would be wise to keep an musket-escorted treb around to bombard its walls back to 0% every two turns... Saves a hassle later on.

Also, another possibility would be some drive-by terrorism: Since you know there's only one lb fortified (you sure?), this is really a good time to attack, but you could just bash him down to a unit or two and keep redlining him. Nah, that's WW points. I don't know. I thknk your original idea was pretty good. Always nice to catch him with his pants down. He'll just keep building/rushing more and more lbs there. If we've got a cannon in the area and muskets passing by every turn, why not take it out before he fortifies and reloads?

Don't forget his SoD could also retreat if you damage it enough. Not sure about the code on that, of course.

 

[bcool]

Maintenance in real game is worse than test game in pacifism (I think we have 100 gold in unit maintenance right now so Pacifism costs at least 50 gold I think) So at least for the comparison btwn civics I did above option #4 in the real game comes out slightly better.