SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

I missed something important...

Spoiler :

De Gaulle's borders!

It turns out his borders popped in 2840 BC (Turn 29) - Buddhist holy city. Didn't occur to me to fog gaze unless we discover new tiles. Thoughts? Does this change our opening? I think we need to test for attacks in the 2000-1500 BC era...

I sent the warrior an extra turn north, wanting to reveal the last tile of second city's BFC before I get exploring.

Turn 28 - 2880 BC
Churchill learn a tech
Hinduism is FIDL
Roosevelt seems to grow to 4

Turn 29 - 2840 BC
Churchill converts to Hinduism
Mao grows to 5

Turn 30 - 2800 BC
Gandhi learns BW

Turn 31 - 2760 BC
Stalin learns a tech

Turn 32 - 2720 BC
Roosevelt grows to 5
De Gaulle grows to 4

Turn 33 - 2680 BC
Roosevelt learns a tech
Churchill grows to 5

Turn 34 - 2640 BC
De Gaulle learns a tech

Turn 35 - 2600 BC
See De Gaulle's borders just west of us!
Mao grows to size 6

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2920 BC to 2600 BC:

Turn 27, 2920 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 28, 2880 BC: Churchill converts to Hinduism!

Turn 30, 2800 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 33, 2680 BC: Moscow has grown to size 2.
Turn 33, 2680 BC: Moscow has become unhealthy.

Turn 34, 2640 BC: Moscow has become healthy.
Turn 34, 2640 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Edit: I took all the screenshots, and have all the saves - to follow...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Ignore this, sorry. I forgot to give Gandhi 140% for two prereqs on Masonry...

Spoiler :

We can see Gandhi's graph now. If someone has time, we could do a pixel analysis of his MFG, GNP and Crop Yield. Should be able to determine exact tile yields.

Okay, I've got this done. Now I've got a problem. How does Gandhi fo from pop1 to pop2 with these stats, including city center:

pop1 5f1h2g
pop2 7f2h4g

We know his city center has only 1h, but it could have 3f or 2g. Furthermore, we know he researched fishing-masonry, telling us he prioritized stone or marble over a land-food resource. Finally, we know that his worker built 2 quarries and/or mines. So he doesn't seem to have a land-food resource.

Did he settle on a luxury for +1 food or +1 gold? THen he could work a fp and a grass forest luxury, giving him
2 1 2
3 0 1
2 1 1
-----
7 2 4

Any other ideas?

xpost with bbp

 

[babybluepants]

Screenshots...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well, this is very interesting. Good news, I think. We'll get a free capital only 9 tiles from our capital. bbp could you attach the T33 2680bc save? (We grow to pop2 then.)

 

[bcool]

I was updating the test game, and so I incorporated De Gaulle's new location (putting Gandhi where De Gaulle was).

I updated the capitals to get the right starting land tiles, and attempted to get the same life expectancy (following LC's advice) but it's off slightly off for Roosy (not sure why). 80 instead of 77. Might be off by one for another AI too.

Took out a lot of land and isolated Stalin on his own island (which will require astronomy to get to).

I didn't make sure the production totals were accurate, but I attempted to add a luxury resource in Gandhi's capital as LC suggested to get Gandhi's production total to match the graphs.

Changed Stalin's starting techs to Military science, fishing, and sailing.

I updated the local area for the revealed tiles.

I left the test game at 4000 BC. Won't be too hard to advance to the current game status, and we can further edit it to better model the AI's early development if so desired later.

 

[babybluepants]

Alternate options:
- Hooking up horses ahead of the second gold mine, so we can grow to 5 on a chariot. Worker stealing alone would probably make this a good move. It isn't a major concession at all, in terms of early micro.
- Straight Alphabet. This is big, as we'd delay stuff like Pottery, Sailing...

Well, this is very interesting. Good news, I think. We'll get a free capital only 9 tiles from our capital. bbp could you attach the T33 2680bc save? (We grow to pop2 then.)

We can do a chariot every 2t at size 5-6. Taking his capital with chariots will be taxing to our development, though. This definitely needs some testing...
Save's attached.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Alternate options:
- Hooking up horses ahead of the second gold mine, so we can grow to 5 on a chariot. Worker stealing alone would probably make this a good move. It isn't a major concession at all, in terms of early micro.
- Straight Alphabet. This is big, as we'd delay stuff like Pottery, Sailing...


We can do a chariot every 2t at size 5-6. Taking his capital with chariots will be taxing to our development, though. This definitely needs some testing...
Save's attached.

I was thinking of continuing as planned until we complete the library, then squeezing in 1 chariot before Fish City. This chariot's first priority is to pillage dG's metals, as he gets them. Doubt we'll be able to worker steal, unless the fallout screws up the worker's ability to escape, which is entirely likely, since the AI is stupid. We wouldn't be able to capture his capital till he settles a city, so that may take a while. AIs will attack and kill chariots with an archer pair, in my experience, so the chariot has to be wise.

bbp, if you open the Turn 32 - 2720 BC save, you can check whether Stalin (EDIT: could be Mao instead of Stalin, I guess) or Roosy teched Masonry.

Btw, all 6 AIs have fishing now, so if we tech at 0% till T40, then we get an extra bpt on Fishing (@11base-bpt).

 

[LowtherCastle]

I see tundra in the northern fog. Maybe that warrior should go SW 1t to peak at dG, then loop up north to see if there's any marble up there. Otherwise it's probably a dead end, is my guess. Btw, I think our explorers should also expose coastal tiles for eventual trade routes.

Once our chariot sees Paris, we'll be able to monitor his builds, and watch if he's building a wonder or something big.

 

[Soirana]

Given fact we see border but zero units and the general dislike to give for people second cap, i would guess it won't be easy land route towards Paris.

Does "threatening" city work over body of water?

 

[Mitchum]

I don't know if its too late (I don't have access to the game right now), but if we build a library then a chariot after the two warriors but before the settler, we may be able to work the improved horse tile rather than an unimproved food tile and still be able to grow to four before starting the settler. I'd like to work improved tiles as much as possible.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Does "threatening" city work over body of water?

Good question.

If our warrior is land-connected to dG, we get the discount, even if there is water between the warrior and Paris and our warrior has to walk 30 tiles and go over an unpassable moutain to reach Paris...

If our warrior is not land-connected to Paris, no discount.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I don't know if its too late (I don't have access to the game right now), but if we build a library then a chariot after the two warriors but before the settler, we may be able to work the improved horse tile rather than an unimproved food tile and still be able to grow to four before starting the settler. I'd like to work improved tiles as much as possible.

Looks like a toss-up:

T46         HorsesAtpop3   HorsesT40
Pottery     39/124         48/124
Food        7/28           6/28
Settler     24/100(4t)     20/100(4t)
Treasury    58gold         58gold
Chariot     T45            T45
Library     T42            T43
Pop4        T43            T42
Fish City   T51            T51
            mine           road
            gold           horses
            then road      after
            horses         connecting cows

worker turns work perfectly between roading horses and scrubbing Fish City

Our current plan gets a 9 more beakers in in exchange for 1f and 4h.

 

[bcool]

I think it would be worth playing a turn to see if De Gaulle is on a different landmass or not.

 

[babybluepants]

You guys think he's across water... Doesn't really look like that to me, but maybe, I guess...

Btw, all 6 AIs have fishing now, so if we tech at 0% till T40, then we get an extra bpt on Fishing (@11base-bpt).

I'd prefer teching full-blast here. We need a lot of techs in the next period.

I don't really see a reason to change anything before the library. The first thing I would change is to road the horse ahead of clearing/mining second gold.

 

[Soirana]

I think it would be worth playing a turn to see if De Gaulle is on a different landmass or not.

This is good idea. Not like we would change something in this or next turn. Checking if we are land connected to Paris makes some planning easier.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'd prefer teching full-blast here. We need a lot of techs in the next period.

Tested and I agree.

I tested two variants to 1400BC: 1) ORacle/Currency slingshot and 2) Moscow Development project. The Moscow Project gets us about 150 into Currency (in the save below, I researched Sailing, but changed my mind and started building a granary in Fish City instead, so those beakers could have gone into CUrrency).

So the ORacle gives us:

• ~450
• Myst-Medit-Phood
• +20% prereq bonus on CoL (~50)
• Risk that we miss Oracle
• Earlier chance to DoP Gandhi, get some tech trading

The Moscow project gives us:

• +2.5 workers
• Rice hooked up ~6t sooner
• Agri-Pottery
• No risk on Oracle
• Greater risk of getting attacked

Do we want Pottery after Fishing or not? Or do we bee-line Phood and do an Oracle slingshot?

----------

In any case, bbp might as well play till Fishing is done, imo, because we have no major decisions before that.

Just beware of the workers turns:
T42 Library = road horses sooner
T43 Library = finish gold mine then road horses with both workers on T43

In either case, one worker then goes to scrub FIsh CIty, the other goes to GOld N.
.
.

 

[Soirana]

Tested and I agree.

I tested two variants to 1400BC: 1) ORacle/Currency slingshot and 2) Moscow Development project. The Moscow Project gets us about 150 into Currency (in the save below, I researched Sailing, but changed my mind and started building a granary in Fish City instead, so those beakers could have gone into CUrrency).

Honestly 450 for Oracle is not terribly a lot.

Can't we move warrior to coast and take na glance at Paris, really?

Overall:
1400BC is good date for immortal. Sure you miss sometimes but there is no bastards like Pacal arround. Given Ghandi probably did not went for early religion we can plan something at 1000BC or tad later.

Value of currency depends on cities available. So we back to moving warrior. Currency on two cities sucks honestly, if land connected to French i rather oracle construction and stomp Paris with elephants.

So can we somehow move that stupid warrior instead of testing something 1000 years away?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I can't. Not my turnset. While I'm testing, I mentioned to bbp:

In any case, bbp might as well play till Fishing is done, imo, because we have no major decisions before that.

Just beware of the workers turns:
T42 Library = road horses sooner
T43 Library = finish gold mine then road horses with both workers on T43

In either case, one worker then goes to scrub FIsh CIty, the other goes to GOld N.
.
.

It's bbp's turnset, he'll play when he's ready. Meanwhile, I think it's useful to try variants. That's how we optimize, rather than philosophize.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Honestly 450 for Oracle is not terribly a lot.

Well, it's 450+50 plus any other techs we get from Gandhi instead of teching them ourselves, such as ALpha+BW+IW+..., plus a chance to DoP dG if we want, or anyone else, like ROosy before they get a ton of plusmods with other AIs for a common war against us. Edit: To say nothing of all the cash we can get from AIs for cheap techs.

I believe I've mentioned these items before.

 

[Soirana]

Well, it's 450+50 plus any other techs we get from Gandhi instead of teching them ourselves, such as ALpha+BW+IW+..., plus a chance to DoP dG if we want, or anyone else, like ROosy before they get a ton of plusmods with other AIs for a common war against us. Edit: To say nothing of all the cash we can get from AIs for cheap techs.

I believe I've mentioned these items before.

Before and now you forget to substract the stuff like priesthood which is not so usefull as a lot.

I am on point playing should stop next turn. Founding we are on same land as France changes stuff.