SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

Ok, that makes sense. Edit: nvm

Can we each think just about this (Moscow vs. Pigs next) for today, and have a vote later? It seems each of us has flip-flopped a few times in the last week.

 

[LowtherCastle]

If we build the Parthenon somewhere by T160 (just a thought), then Pigs alone can pop GP4/5/6 by T190, without Caste Systems.

T140 10gpps @14/t
T150 150
T153 192 (NE) @30/t
T160 402 (parthenon) @37/t
T174 920
T190 1512

Of course, it won't be 100% odds, but that's NE. Plus, we'll probably want to run castes, so that will change the odds and also the numbers.

So this tells me, bbp, that you can plan this turnset to optimize our priorities and not do backflips to pop the GS in Pigs.

-----------------

Bear in mind, guys, that not getting GE is not the end of the world, imo. To me, the most important need for Mining, Inc, is the final final push to build the engines and (I forget the other one). Fusion will not be the very last tech we get, so we'll get a GE then. It's just that we might get screwed by where he spawns, but we'll have railroads so he should be pretty close to where he needs to be.

-------------

Okay, I finally figured it out.

LC's posts per day = 7.91
Posts still needed to break MW's SGOTM 7 record = 2,097 (33.29 per day until deadline)
Posts for LC to break his SGOTM 7 record = 661 (10.49 per day)

bbp stands for Big Brother p. That's what I can't figure out; what's the p stand for?

From now on, I'm posting everything for each day in one loooooooooooooong post.

 

[babybluepants]

If we build the Parthenon somewhere by T160 (just a thought), then Pigs alone can pop GP4/5/6 by T190, without Caste Systems.

T140 10gpps @14/t
T150 150
T153 192 (NE) @30/t
T160 402 (parthenon) @37/t
T174 920
T190 1512

Of course, it won't be 100% odds, but that's NE. Plus, we'll probably want to run castes, so that will change the odds and also the numbers.

That sounds excellent.

Bear in mind, guys, that not getting GE is not the end of the world, imo. To me, the most important need for Mining, Inc, is the final final push to build the engines and (I forget the other one). Fusion will not be the very last tech we get, so we'll get a GE then. It's just that we might get screwed by where he spawns, but we'll have railroads so he should be pretty close to where he needs to be.

Not really. I would think the primary use of Mining Inc. is in:
1) Building infrastructure in immature future cities, at low pop without Slavery ('cause you want Caste-Pac as much as possible).
2) Building wealth (in, say, 20-25 cities x 15-18hpt x forge/factory = circa 600-800gpt) for dozens of turns, to sustain 100% slider.
Reason one is why the top HOF players go for Terra - they can get 40+ hpt Mining Inc. and set up 25 instant cities in the new world. In our case, that applies only marginally (lesser hpt, maybe some island cities remaining), but still.

Edit: this is maybe counter-intuitive, but corporations proportionally benefit a new size 1 city the most, and a NW metropolis the least.

Okay, I finally figured it out.bbp stands for Big Brother p. That's what I can't figure out; what's the p stand for?

From now on, I'm posting everything for each day in one loooooooooooooong post.

You do realize you could have easily split this post into two, don't you?

 

[Mitchum]

Bear in mind, guys, that not getting GE is not the end of the world, imo. To me, the most important need for Mining, Inc, is the final final push to build the engines and (I forget the other one). Fusion will not be the very last tech we get, so we'll get a GE then. It's just that we might get screwed by where he spawns, but we'll have railroads so he should be pretty close to where he needs to be.

Not entirely true. In my last space race game, having Mining Inc. in every city let me build so much wealth that I had my slider at 100% for the final 75+ turns. Without Mining Inc, I'm not sure that it would have been possible.

Plus, with Mining Inc, all infrastructure (e.g. factories, power plants, laboratories, etc.) is built that much sooner, contributing further to our increased science (labs) and wealth building output (powered factories).

Finally, if we wait for the final GE to found Mining Inc, it could take away one mutt from a possible late golden age plus it will take some time to spread Mining Inc for it to be totally effective. It could speed up a few space ship parts, but I think we'd be behind in other areas as mentioned above.

I think having a GE available as soon as we research Railroads is a very strong play, expecially with all of the Mining Inc resources on this map.

Edit: x-post with bbp.

 

[bcool]

Bear in mind, guys, that not getting GE is not the end of the world, imo. To me, the most important need for Mining, Inc, is the final final push to build the engines and (I forget the other one). Fusion will not be the very last tech we get, so we'll get a GE then. It's just that we might get screwed by where he spawns, but we'll have railroads so he should be pretty close to where he needs to be.

This from the guy who was just recently orgasmic about the failure gold we could get from all those wonders we are going to build. Just think about all the failure gold we could get from Mining Corp Hammers ...

edit: he always spawns in the capital.

2) Building wealth (in, say, 20-25 cities x 15-18hpt x forge/factory = circa 600-800gpt) for dozens of turns, to sustain 100% slider.
Reason one is why the top HOF players go for Terra - they can get 40+ hpt Mining Inc. and set up 25 instant cities in the new world. In our case, that applies only marginally (lesser hpt, maybe some island cities remaining), but still.

Failure gold of course not wealth

edit: x-post

 

[bcool]

I'm swinging over to trying for the GE in Moscow (then maybe the 3 GS in Pigs as LC proposed with the Parthenon and/or switch to caste/pacifism)

The hammers from mining corp also let us build the corporation executives that much faster as well... Of both Sushi and Mining Corp


edit: bbp (Big Brother Police?) I hope we are posting enough to keep him happy.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Of course, I understand the benefits of MIning, Inc. earlier. Of course, we're going to do everything we can to pop one in time. I'm just saying there's always another way. For example, Kremlin + wkshops + slavery or USuff for short stints during GAs gets us our infra more or less instantly. We'll have biology + Sushi for sure, so there'll be plenty of population.

Don't forget all those Corporate execs cost hammers too. There's no guarantee whatsoever that Mining, Inc. is the fastest route here. Furthermore, we'll have hundreds (thousands...millions) of workshops.

I just wouldn't view missing the GE as the end of the world is all.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Think this is pretty close. Let me konw if I missed something significant.

Defects:
+1h in Pigs
+1b overall
+1t scrub on silver tile

Trade routes, etc., all messed up as usual. Didn't bother with techs either.
.

 

[babybluepants]

Great, thx LC!
Been busy tonight. I'll have a closer look over all the discussion tmr morning and try to synthesize a plan...

 

[babybluepants]

Pre-PPP

Education timing: we need about 570 base beakers, with 11g in treasury, 38bpt / +15gpt @ 0%, and +18bpt / -15gpt per 10% after, 218bpt / -132gpt @ 100%.

Trades:
Roos - Currency for HBR+30g+Map
Mao - Lit for 70g
Gandhi - HBR for 60+ (next turn)
DG - HBR for 60+ (next turn)
Stalin - Aest if and when he gets to 50-60g
Edit: Sign OB with Churchill. Also spy on his progress in Tours as possible.

The short-term trades should give us about 5-6t to Education.

Moscow: we'll hire an Eng, and go with the pre-build sequence.
Edit: I think that Education is 1-2t ahead in LC's proposed sequence, so I'll see how I can adjust for that. Really, it's just a matter of maxing OF hammers we get into Oxford, since Moscow can obviously build everything quickly.

Siberia/Pigs: as per LC's plans, I think.
Where is the second settler from Siberia going? (I'm assuming we want Corn/Fish with the first). Should we look at giving DG an ice city already?

GP: CH or fail-cash after lib?

Bermuda: whip WB next turn - start granary

Cuba: grow into a 2pop granary whip
Edit: Moai location?

Rheims: should it be working gems until Edu, then corn?

Bahamas: is the intent to finish the forge, then lib?
Edit: I seem to get Uni done T152 with forge, or T150 without. T150 is more our schedule.

Workers:

• we seem way behind roading to Corn/Fish; do we really need to be scrubbing grass in Siberia?
• why do we need 5 more grass farms in GP?
• Rheims: stone > irrigate corn > second gems
• can we do some grass farms for Bananas?
• Moscow gets a river farm next
• not sure where to find workers for Fish
• do we want silver asap? i think we can delay.

Edit: btw, guys, the TS got handed over at a bad time, as I've got a pretty full slate yesterday and today. I'm intending to get the proper test runs in tmr morning, iron out a final PPP for discussion on Saturday and play a mini-set to roughly Paris/Educ on Sunday.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Pre-PPP

I've got a pretty full slate yesterday and today.

I can understand your schedule for today, but can't you just postpone everything from yesterday?

-------------

I like your focus on worker MM. That's important, imo. I'll post my response in detail later but I wanted to point out one detail. My Siberia plan appears to be confusing. There is only one settler produced:

T142 2poprush settler (150/100h) then put into the build queue behind MoM, IMMEDIATELY switch build to MoM Parthenon. Do NOT complete the settler next turn!!!
...
T145 build settler with overflow into uni, that is, move settler to the top of the build queue for completion next turn​

Sorry for the confusion. This is a trick to 1) get the population growing back up sooner by abusing the smaller granary size at lower population and 2) save the overflow for the uni.

Also note, bbp, that all my city MMs assume Educ completed on T145. Of course, if Educ gets delayed, we can always build wealth for a turn to preserve our overflows into the uni.
.

 

[babybluepants]

T142 2poprush settler (150/100h) then put into the build queue behind MoM

You can do that?! Can't believe it's never occurred to me before.

 

[LowtherCastle]

You can do that?! Can't believe it's never occurred to me before.

CHeck Fish in the current save: mdy 1popped the mace (75/70), then put the cat in front of it in the build queue.

 

[babybluepants]

If we build the Parthenon somewhere by T160 (just a thought), then Pigs alone can pop GP4/5/6 by T190, without Caste Systems.

Should we? If it potentially gives us an extra GS bulb pre-Lib, it's easily worth more than a few extra turns of Oxford. It would dilute GE odds further, though.

Also note, bbp, that all my city MMs assume Educ completed on T145. Of course, if Educ gets delayed, we can always build wealth for a turn to preserve our overflows into the uni.
.

Yeah, I know. It's no big.

 

[bcool]

Could some other city build the Parthenon? (Perhaps Rheims or Fish?)

Edit: Also we could whip a galley in Cuba in 5 turns? Would it be worth delaying its development to get a confu missionary to Bahamas?

 

[babybluepants]

Are we assuming it's safe from AI? How?
I would think we want Fish just spamming units (aside from a Uni, ofc).
Smaller cities (Bermuda could maybe do T161-162 in a very suboptimal way?) seem too slow to me.

 

[bcool]

Are we assuming it's safe from AI? How?

You think we are going to lose Rheims? I would imagine we would be able to defend it relatively easily with the units we have in the area, no?

 

[babybluepants]

No, I meant lose the Parthenon, assuming we want it.

 

[Mitchum]

I'm opposed to adding more gpp pollution (other than Oxford) in Moscow until we've popped the next great person from there at least. Has anyone done a great person workout through the next 4 great people with and without the Parthenon? Could we build it in Paris or Beijing or would that be too late?

Be sure to renogotiate our trades with Roosevelt, especially those where we're giving away the resources.

If we're still planning to steal Communism, I think we want a CH in GP Farm rather than failed gold.

I would work the corn in Rheims rather than the gems unless working the gems can speed up Education by more than one turn.

Bahamas: I prefer forge before library for more efficient whipping, but it all depends on the timing of Education and Oxford.

I agree on your worker sugestions. I don't think we need the silver mined right away since happiness is not an issue at the moment. We need to start improving tiles around Bananas and roading toward Corn/Fish as you suggested.

We were planning to leave De Gaulle in Tours while we took the rest of his cities. Now that Churchill is attacking him too, that may not be too smart. If he loses Tours, we will not meet the constraint that all AI other than Stalin must be alive at the end of the game. It appeared that there is some wiggle room here, but I don't think we want to chance it. So our options are to prepare and ice ball for De Gaulle now or leave him with Lyons in case he loses Tours. I assume that his capital would jump to Tours if all he had left were Lyons and Tours, so Lyons should not put too much cultural pressure on Paris.

 

[bcool]

If we lose the Parthenon, I would imagine we would switch to Pacifism and Caste System.