SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw
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LowtherCastle
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That was my first thought, but 1) Drama might be more useful for gold trades and 2) since we'll get Feudalism whenever we want it, I'm reluctant to make it cheaper for other AIs to research. Gandhi should have Compass in 4t if he didn't change his rate when bcool saw it 5t ago.
That's what this axe is kind of doing. Next turn he would capture the wkr and be at Marseilles 1SE. Better would be more units, of course, and we do have a couple more swords available. I was planning to keep them in the Mao SoD, but I guess I don't have to.
bcool
Deity
Is it worth a 3 pop of the forge in Bermuda?
In a Golden Age, each pop working Moai ocean tiles produces a net 2H and 4C per turn
We would be ~3 Pop lower for each turn in GA so missing pop produces 6H *12 + 12C*12 = 72H and 144C
Forge would come ~5 turns earlier and library ~5 turns earlier produces ~3H per turn (-15H from not having forge) (-10C per turn no library) (-50 research)
Whip produces 90H raw
So no whip over GA (72 - 105)=-23H And (144 - 50) +94Commerce
Or whip gives us +23Hammers at the cost of 94 Commerce.
(I think we complete the planned confu monastery before scientific method without the whip)
Right now I think 23Hammers instead of 94 Commerce isn't worth it. Plus the longer we go out past the GA the extra pop will help us.
In a Golden Age, each pop working Moai ocean tiles produces a net 2H and 4C per turn
We would be ~3 Pop lower for each turn in GA so missing pop produces 6H *12 + 12C*12 = 72H and 144C
Forge would come ~5 turns earlier and library ~5 turns earlier produces ~3H per turn (-15H from not having forge) (-10C per turn no library) (-50 research)
Whip produces 90H raw
So no whip over GA (72 - 105)=-23H And (144 - 50) +94Commerce
Or whip gives us +23Hammers at the cost of 94 Commerce.
(I think we complete the planned confu monastery before scientific method without the whip)
Right now I think 23Hammers instead of 94 Commerce isn't worth it. Plus the longer we go out past the GA the extra pop will help us.
Mitchum
Deity
Hey, just played the next turn in the test game and I got the failure gold on Moai.
This is my understanding as well. We still get the fail gold but a turn later.
^^ yeah, that's what I think.
LowtherCastle
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hopesa hopesa^^ yeah, that's what I think.This is my understanding as well. We still get the fail gold but a turn later.Hey, just played the next turn in the test game and I got the failure gold on Moai
I agree, it's not worth it. I was trying to take advantage of the 3t of OrgRel. My numbers come out different than yours, but the conclusion is the same.
On T179, my solution has:
+89h
-94c
+13b (but only assuming 100% research for those turns...)
So far, it's a wash, because the hammers could build wealth. But...
-47f
So it's your final sentence that nails that coffin shut.
LowtherCastle
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Are you guys still pondering all this?
I guess I'll sleep on it and see if anything boils up from my subconscious...
I guess I'll sleep on it and see if anything boils up from my subconscious...
Yeah, let's limit the whipping to essential infra in newer cities at this point. I don't particularly like all the whipping in Fish either, but I suppose we need that musket?
Really don't know about NP. I thought about it a long time ago, but didn't see a great option (except back when I was for saving forests in Pigs)... How quickly could we possibly get it with a new city on the south island? Probably take forever and a day, especially without Slavery (and chopping ) Siberia doesn't seem all that appealing - we'd have to give up deer and furs in order to put it to use.
Edit: plan looks excellent to me, LC. You could just go for it when you feel ready, esp. as we may have some unexpected reasons to stop early.
Really don't know about NP. I thought about it a long time ago, but didn't see a great option (except back when I was for saving forests in Pigs
)... How quickly could we possibly get it with a new city on the south island? Probably take forever and a day, especially without Slavery (and chopping ) Siberia doesn't seem all that appealing - we'd have to give up deer and furs in order to put it to use.Edit: plan looks excellent to me, LC. You could just go for it when you feel ready, esp. as we may have some unexpected reasons to stop early.
bcool
Deity
More ideas to contemplate or reject obviously.
You need a galley here now for the galley chain, I think it should be possible to build the monastery before scientific method if you 1 pop whip the 1st galley.
And/or you could focus on workshops here perhaps that would get the 2nd galley faster.
Or you will have more hammers than you think from Fish, so after the settler you could rebuild the fort on the hill SSW of Fish and build a galley there too.
Also Moscow can run 2-3 more scientists to follow in GP population boom. I think you could get Pigs, GP Farm, Moscow, Pigs (not sure if you want to risk getting a prophet or engineer). (or Moscow pops one at the end of the GA)
Or perhaps rock the overflow and get a courthouse in 1 turn when the galley chain backs up and run a spy
Perhaps an alternative to investing into espionage to steal Communism or
if you are very flush with commerce go for Nationalism (and maybe do a dip into Nationhood from turn 6-11 of the GA) (I don't think we will have the espionage to steal it from DeG anytime soon, however researching ourselves and switching to Nationhood gives us a +25% espionage bonus. That could be nice with the plan to invest slider espionage into Mao and is competitive with Bureaucracy in Moscow, as it does save ~30 gold per turn before inflation)
Opens up Taj Mahal too, a way to extend the GA for the switch to Communism if we need extra time.
Probably couldn't do this and invest enough into espionage to steal communism, not sure what that will cost exactly.
I'm pretty sure if you have the gold 100% research would get you all the techs + nationalism (although the test game lies about these things)
You need a galley here now for the galley chain, I think it should be possible to build the monastery before scientific method if you 1 pop whip the 1st galley.
And/or you could focus on workshops here perhaps that would get the 2nd galley faster.
Or you will have more hammers than you think from Fish, so after the settler you could rebuild the fort on the hill SSW of Fish and build a galley there too.
Also Moscow can run 2-3 more scientists to follow in GP population boom. I think you could get Pigs, GP Farm, Moscow, Pigs (not sure if you want to risk getting a prophet or engineer). (or Moscow pops one at the end of the GA)
Or perhaps rock the overflow and get a courthouse in 1 turn when the galley chain backs up and run a spy
Perhaps an alternative to investing into espionage to steal Communism or
if you are very flush with commerce go for Nationalism (and maybe do a dip into Nationhood from turn 6-11 of the GA) (I don't think we will have the espionage to steal it from DeG anytime soon, however researching ourselves and switching to Nationhood gives us a +25% espionage bonus. That could be nice with the plan to invest slider espionage into Mao and is competitive with Bureaucracy in Moscow, as it does save ~30 gold per turn before inflation)
Opens up Taj Mahal too, a way to extend the GA for the switch to Communism if we need extra time.
Probably couldn't do this and invest enough into espionage to steal communism, not sure what that will cost exactly.
I'm pretty sure if you have the gold 100% research would get you all the techs + nationalism (although the test game lies about these things)
LowtherCastle
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IT will cost us somewhere between 330-600EPs depending on how soon we want it.
Nationhood, huh? To go where no LC has ever gone before? To explore uncharted horizons?
(Edited) Now that you mention it, it would cost us about 600EPs to steal on T172, which is doable if we put them all on dG now and use the ep slider at 100% for 1 turn on T171. Then in about 4t we should be able to cover the expensive version of Communism. Of course, it would also mean building a settler in Fish in 3t, settling Moscow-2S1SE by T167 w/spy. If the spy fails in his mission, we're messed up, but we're used to living with that, right? Then we capture M-2S1SE from dg, put the spy right back in, and on T178 gift it to Mao, the Ares, Bellona, Mars, Odin, and all the others willing.
I'm game. Any other takers?
bcool
Deity
So just to make sure I understand, the expensive way is to invest 100% in espionage slider without the spy specialist and courthouse
we would put into DeG. (While in the Nationhood civic?) (edit: or the expensive way is just with 1 turn of stationary spy?)Spies do not get booted out when you gift a city to an AI with whom you do not have open borders correct?
If this is true, can we exploit this to get the spy bonus even before we gift the city to Mao?
We would need a timely ceasefire with Mao to gift him the city.
edit: backup plan for communism steal would be to trigger another GA with the Taj Mahal. Not sure where we would build that...
LowtherCastle
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BY expensive way to steal COmmunism, I meant if Mao is still running Confucianism. That would increase the cost by about 300EPs. That's just answering the question of whether we can get enough EPs, no matter what, if we can get Mao down to 3 cities in time.
I'm going to test this, cuz I can't remember if I only tested it under OBs conditions.
LowtherCastle
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I didn't like this idea from the beginning because we want our culture in there to get the -50% culture bonus. But now I know the REAL reason...
If Moscow-2S1SE hasn't grown to pop2 before we re-capture it, I'll give you 3 guesses what happens... So I tested to see if the spy remains there when gifting without open borders. Yes, the spy remains, yes he automatically has the -50% bonus for stationary spy...
But, I learned two more details about re-capture:
1. City auto-razes if only pop1. (duh)
2. We lose all our plot culture for the inner fat cross when we gift the city. We regain the tiles next turn because we're dumping a ton of culture there, but...we'll need to hav a unit on a galley if we want to re-capture the same turn.
I like the plan to steal Nationalism from De Gaulle. We could build the spy in GP farm before the archer as an insurance in case the first one fails.
I'm not sure that Nationhood would be competitive with bureacracy unless we are running 100% espionage, there is the production bonus to consider, and with Oxford+academy there extra commerce there is much more important than gold saved elsewhere. Maybe we could revolt to nationhood whilst we put espionage on Mao, and then switch back to bureacracy on the final turn of the golden age.
I'm not sure that Nationhood would be competitive with bureacracy unless we are running 100% espionage, there is the production bonus to consider, and with Oxford+academy there extra commerce there is much more important than gold saved elsewhere. Maybe we could revolt to nationhood whilst we put espionage on Mao, and then switch back to bureacracy on the final turn of the golden age.
bcool
Deity
Too bad you can't gift an AI food
xpost
xpost
That was the idea. Who knows we might even want to draft a musket or 2
bcool
Deity
Dude, just tested this! You can get the discount if the spy is stationary there before the city exists!
edit: so maybe build a spy in moscow, the galley chain will be choked a bit anyways
even with a immediate 1 pop of the galley in Paris (which by the way could be followed by a 1 pop of the monastery by T167--maybe even a 1 pop of the 2nd galley?)edit#2: so raze the city the next turn! set up 2nd spy for Mao, gift new city to him! (umm... maybe you already suggested this
)
bcool
Deity
hill II musketman from Fish could raze the city the same turn
Mitchum
Deity
I like the idea too. Getting the Taj would be huge.
Mitchum
Deity
What does this do to the cost of stealing the tech on T0 vs T1 since culture is part of the equation?
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