SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks

[hydraculas]

I fixed my computer and I started enjoy Civ5. U know what, Civ 5 is awesome!!!

Just try for Civ5 in these days if I have spare time. I don't have much time for simulation in next 3 days. But I will surely be back soon.

 

[kossin]

Ok, thanks for notification!

Happy Civving.

 

[nishant1911]

nishant, alive?

alive and miserable (exams)

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Kossin, am I right assuming you'd prefer :
a) a plan to the GLH with 2 cities only ;
b) to get Priesthood asap to put some hammers into the Oracle ;
c) having a chariot soon.

??

Those are Duckweed's macro suggestions that I'm about to include in the plan (today, but later in the day...).
No opinions were voiced on points b) and c).


If you did not take time to analyse the testruns :
a) gains 5-10 turns to the GLH. Doesn't change much about the Oracle. Delays 3rd city by 5-10 turns.With 3rd city, GLH is around T96-98 and with only 2 cities, around T90.
b) loses us some commerce but nothing big, really.
c) Loses us 1 turn working the gold mine but gains us 1 chariot. Overall b) + c) delay the Oracle by 1 turn (safety measures).


@ Duckweed, @ 3-4 workers&library :
Haha ! You're right, my wording was ambiguous. Your "correction" got me really confused, though. No big deal, that's understood, now !

 

[kossin]

Yes I'm fine with Duckweed's plan. Play when you want there's a voting majority and we've waited long enough for votes. (plus you can probably count dingding's vote as pro-GLH from his last post)

I tried it quickly. Getting a Chariot is for safety measures which is good (but perhaps unnecessary if we can buy Peace before we get in trouble).
Building 3rd city delays Wonder dates further more - we're already playing with fire so let's not.

@nishant
Thanks for notification !
Good luck!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I won't have time to re-write the plan tonight, but I intend to incorporate all of Duckweed's suggestions in post 267.
I'll do so as soon as possible tomorrow afternoon GMT time. So morning for you all in America. Hopefully, I'll be able to play in your evening. I'll be fully available at that time.

Questions :
What about the warrior near De Gaulle ? Fortifying him on the hills is ok with me.
What if an archer comes by ? Shall it avoid him ? Follow him ? Accepting combat won't be an option on a non-forested hill.
I'm thinking maybe start mapping to the west, circling around the coast, would be both safe and useful...


Are there any "to check every turn" tricks ? I can't think of any.

 

[kossin]

Don't fortify the warrior, either skip turns or put him on Sentry.

Move away if an Archer comes by, we'd have losing odds against C1 even with full fortification.

His duty is to alert of us of incoming units more than anything else...

Mapping would be good (trade routes with a possible other AI on our landmass although I think there's only 1 from what Erkon said).

Every turn: check what tech Gandhi might have acquired.
Also useful but not crucial: check when an AI meets another, if a network becomes available.

 

[Duckweed]

Forum server lags very often in these days. CIV5 is somewhat full of bugs (imagine one can win deity in a week), although some new concepts are pretty good.

@all
How do you feel about the peace with Gandhi (I mentioned specially in one of my previous post) when Sailing is done as no one expresses his opinion on that.

 

[kossin]

Peace with Gandhi: if he has PH take the Peace deal. If he doesn't, wait longer.

I'm gonna try the Civ 5 demo whenever I get some time... from the horror stories I've read I don't feel like buying the game before a year or so... once the bugs start getting sorted out.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@all
How do you feel about the peace with Gandhi (I mentioned specially in one of my previous post) when Sailing is done as no one expresses his opinion on that.

Getting Bronze working and Alphabet from him is very good. It's even better if he has Pottery.
I think that the earlier we make peace, the earlier we will have the +1 modifier for "years of peace" (= 50 turns ?). But maybe we don't care in this case.

We should definitely make peace before we Oracle CS. I don't mind when we do so exactly, though.


We've done very little long term plans until now... hmmm...

 

[kossin]

I stand by my post... No need to hurry up his path to PH unless he already has it or we are almost done with Oracle.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Plan to T55 :

Spoiler :

T47-- Worker in St Petersbourg heads straight for the Rice (available T51).
Warrior1 1W and stay, also checks for approaching archer every turn

Research to 0%

T48-- Worker on gold goes to second gold.

Research to 100%

T49-- Worker on gold roads.
Worker from Moscow goes 1SE.

Moscow works silk and resumes warrior.

T50-- Warrior 3 1NW1SW.
Worker 1SE of Moscow roads.

Moscow starts library.

T51-- worker on gold clears fallout and cancels.
worker on Rice roads
warrior 3 continue scout south along the coast

T52--worker on Rice finish road 1st, 2 workers go to Rice clear fallout.
Moscow works cow, cow, horse. That means Moscow works the silk for 2 more turns than in Duckweed's plan, where it starts working the horse on T50.
Consequences : St Pet will be able to work the fish as soon as it will be improved (possibly earlier GLH + Academy ; also greater overflow from Library to Warrior ; 1 turn later library, hence research set to 0% for 1 more turn and Priesthood coming in 1 turn later. Not a bad deal, imho)

T53--3rd worker clears fallout on rice.

T54--2workers farm the rice
Moscow is size 4. Works Cow, cow, rice, gold.
St Pet completes workboat (to fish). Starts lighthouse.

Peace with Gandhi(with AH, Sailing,Writing)
Research set to Priesthood. Slider at 0% science.

T55--3rd worker farms rice.
The fish is improved. St Pet works Fish.
Moscow works Cow, Cow, Rice, Gold.

Now going to triple check Duckweed's moves to improve the horse + gold. 11 worker turns needed near Moscow... I'll keep the 3rd worker around for a bit. Better gain 1 turn of gold mine than 1 turn of healthiness in St Pet.
Would you approve the change made above ? Indicated in bold.

 

[kossin]

I don't think it's necessary to turn off the research for 1 more turn... We just need togrt to PH ASAP.

I think the tradeoff is good... That's what I tested with anyway.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Well, I just gone along with that plan and, in fact, we don't delay Priesthood at all
What we do, however, is lose some hammers in Moscow, hence delaying the 4th worker, but I really don't think it's an issue seeing how we should still be aiming at maximizing beakers.

Turns 56 to 63 :

Spoiler :

T56-- 3 workers to Gold clear fallout. 2 of them cancel.

Research set to 100%.

T57-- 2 workers to Horse Road
Moscow starts chariot. Warrior stays around.

T58--2 workers mine Gold.
Moscow works 2Cow+gold+2sci

T59--1 worker goes to Cow near St Pet.
2nd gold is complete.

Moscow works 2 gold + 2 cows + scientist.
Research Meditation.

T60-- 1 worker goes to road desert tile.
1 worker goes to SW ivory of St Pet.

St Pet is size 2. Works Fish + Gold.
Moscow works cow, cow, 2 scientists.

T61--1 Worker roads desert.
1 worker on ivory.
1 worker roads cow (we lose a little food in St Pet, here, because we left the workers around the 2nd gold for longer).

Chariot done. Moscow starts Worker (3 turns later than in Duckweed's plan ; no big deal imo since we gained 2 turns of 2nd gold).
Research set to Priesthood (same turn as in Duckweed's plan.

T62—Worker on ivory roads.

T63— worker on Cows clears fallout.

Moscow starts Oracle.
Research set to Masonry.

I'd suggest a stop here.
We will want to do some cash saving at that point. And the next set could go to the end of the Oracle. Knowing how much we need to save is much more important than acquiring Masonry.
+ That's already a 20 turns set. More than honourable.

I'm a bit hesitant about the worker turns on T60-61... Trying to please everybody... Is it bad to start roading everywhere first ? We lose some food but gain on worker moves... No strong opinion on that matter, even though I'd have group moved the workers on the cow to clear the fallout asap.


EDIT : I'll be away for a few hours (2-5). Time for you to check the 2nd part of the plan and make suggestions for the final worker moves
Intending to play tonight.

 

[Duckweed]

@BIC

Try to run a longer test, the short of worker turn will affect the growth in SP. 2 turns of earlier 2nd gold mine won't change the oracle date (will it be worked before SP grows to size 2. I prefer 4th worker before chariot.

 

[kossin]

Sorry I can't test at all today so mind my posts with a grain of salt

4 turns of worker is good, better than a Chariot we might not need right away

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BIC

Try to run a longer test, the short of worker turn will affect the growth in SP. 2 turns of earlier 2nd gold mine won't change the oracle date (will it be worked before SP grows to size 2. I prefer 4th worker before chariot.

Right, I didn't realize that.

So...
T57 : Moscow size 4 starts chariot.
T58 : Moscow size 5 starts worker.
T63 : Moscow starts Oracle.

Is that ok ?


EDIT : About St Pet (not used to SP, yet) : by using the fish 1 turn earlier, the current version is on par in food with your version even if it has 5 more turns of unhealthiness. Maybe it is the case... meaning we don't gain food as I thought... But maybe it isn't : you send a worker on T56 to St Pet and have it clear the 1st fallout alone (done on T65) ; this version sends the first worker on T59 but the first fallout is also cleared on T65 because we can group use the workers on the roaded cow.
And we still gain 2 turns of gold mine. Even if they don't affect the Oracle's date, those turns working an additionnal gold will affect something.

 

[Duckweed]

If you road the Cow 1st, there is shortcoming later. You will waste turns moving to other tiles since a road on the SW Ivory IS necessary and important, so you lose quite a few worker turns later. As a result, you could not clear both ivory fallout in time (for healthy SP of size3) and then both hills, you will lose both food and hammers in SP and that's important for the GLH date. The emphasis of plan is to secure both wonders as soon as possible plus a chariot for a little safety and possible surprised stolen worker. IIRC, improve 2nd gold mine earlier and work on it delays the GS date. If you follow my play a little longer to T82, you could be clear about my worker micros on SP.

 

[kossin]

This start is such a headache! Can't wait to see what the map looks like and if our gambits work.

We've been idling on this set for long enough, hoping the set is done within 24 hours.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Ok, I'll play this following Duckweed's micro...

If I can...

I cannot...


I can open the save (any wonder ?) but can't modify/touch the slider (science, espionage, nothing).
Other menus seem to work, though.

I'll post this issue in the maintenance thread. If any of you (captain ?) wants to play the set, no big deal with me Go along !

I'll edit this post with Duckweed's plan written in a more litterary way.

Plan :

Spoiler :

Every turn :
Warriors : clear city ruins when available.
Gandhi : check techs every turn.
Check AIs meeting one another. Trade networks becoming available.

T47-- Worker in St Petersbourg heads straight for the Rice (available T51).
Warrior1 1W and stay, also checks for approaching archer every turn
Warrior 2 will scout south first, to the coast, then westwards.

Research to 0%

T48-- Worker on gold goes to second gold.

Research to 100%

T49-- Worker on gold roads.
Worker from Moscow goes 1SE.

Moscow works silk and resumes warrior.

T50--Worker 1SE of Moscow roads.

Moscow starts library. Works cow, cow, horse.
Warrior goes explore the south east.

T51-- worker on gold clears fallout and cancels.
worker on Rice roads
warrior 3 continues scout south along the coast

T52--worker on Rice finishes road 1st
2 other workers go to Rice clear fallout.

T53--3rd worker clears fallout on rice

T54—2 workers farm the rice
Moscow works 2Cow, Rice, Silk

Workboat is complete in St Pet. Will improve the Fish.
St Pet starts Lighthouse.

Make peace with Gandhi if he has Priesthood (with AH, Sailing,Writing)
Research set to Mysticism. Slider at 0%.

T55--3rd worker farms the rice.
The fish is improved.

Library is done in Moscow. Starts a Warrior.

Research set to 100%

T56-- 1 worker goes to the cow near St Petersbourg to clear fallout
2 other workers go to Gold, clear fallout and cancel

Moscow takes the gold tile
St Pet works the fish

T57-- 2 workers road the horse
Moscow completes warrior (stays around). Starts a chariot

T58--2 workers clear fallout on gold
St Pet worker clears fallout on cow

Moscow works 2Cow+gold+2scientists.
Moscow starts a worker.

Research set to Med

T59--1 worker mines the gold.

T60--1worker mines the gold

T61--2nd gold mine done.
1 worker to ivory 2W of St Pet
Research set to Priesthood
St Pet is size 2 and works the gold
Moscow works the other gold (+2cows +2scientists)

T62— Last worker near Moscow goes to the ivory tile 1SW of St Pet

T63-- Priesthood is in. Research set to Masonry.
Moscow starts Oracle.