SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[WackenOpenAir]

I don't know.

With their GA, they may build TGL before we get there anyway. (would take us 12 turns to attack aztecs)

When they are fighting, we should backstab the one who is winning so that the weakest opponent will be left for destruction later.*
A golden age makes the aztecs stronger, A wonder hurts them millitary though. So i don't know what to expect here either.

Aztecs seem safer to attack without open ground to cross.


Edit * : Looking back at your post, i see you suggest attacking the weakest target. I have a slightly different view.
There is 2 forces fighting eachother. One is producing units faster then the other, they send everything to their battle. Both their capitals will be poorly defended.

If we attack the weak one, the strong one may even capture the other city of the weak civ, and we now are left with the strongest of the 2 opponents (still in golden age?) with 3 cities.

While if we attack the strong one's capital, the battle will become more even between them, and they can keep eachother weak.

 

[Paul#42]

I strongly oppose to backstabbing any of those two.

This is a diplo game and we should not trash any of our reputations until the very final turn.

I think we should decide whom to attack and then watch the battle.
I think whoever tries hardest to keep the grass tile SW of Teotihuan will lose this one. However with all those Aztec units around there, the battle field might also shift further to west...
I think the Aztecs will have the edge because of their Jags.

Anyway, this will be fun to watch - but we need to chose our side before.

 

[Abegweit]

Neither capital has fresh water but Kyoto clearly has a duct. If the Atzec's don't, that could be an important consideration. We'll know this next turn.

 

[Paul#42]

Neither capital has fresh water but Kyoto clearly has a duct. If the Atzec's don't, that could be an important consideration. We'll know this next turn.

How can they have a duct before Construction?
I guess all (most?) Capitals are next to a river or lake.

 

[Abegweit]

Good point.

I had assumed the irrigation around Kyoto had come from the lake between it and Osaka. I guess there must be another lake in the tiles we can't see to the west.

I'm pretty sure that there nothing around Tenoch-whatever, though. There is no irrigation and I can't see where the lake would go anyway. Both invisible tiles are either coastal or on the coast. All this implies that the capital must be a town.

Consequently, I would be in favour of attacking them. The GA-driven jags should be better able to keep their remaining out of Japanese hands, meeting Wacken's point. At the same time, the capital will be much easier to take. And if they do get a wonder, it'll make a better prize.

An ideal combination.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I don't really worry about that aquaduct, we will capture both cities in quick succesion anyway.

Backstab may have been the wrong word. What i meant was attack the capital where there are no defences while they are concentrating on the war between them.

As i explained, i think we should attack the strongest one first. In fact, i think everything speaks for attacking Aztecs except that wonder that may not be completed in time.

In their golden age however, that wonder can may very well be completed before we can attack them. If it is not, waiting for 2 more swords to attack (then they will very surely have it) may not be all that bad anyway. It will only really cost time on the first capture, not much on our subsequent conquest as i don't think we will have the power to steamroll over them all in very quick succession anyway.

Therefore, i vote war on the aztecs.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

BTW:
The last post i can find from Mark is at page 3.
He's up next.

Mark, are you still out there?

 

[killercane]

You think conquering Japan will be tougher then Aztecs?

8 turns for them to be at war, then our ships have to travel 4 turns (if they arent out soon enough), then they have to walk a tile inland. Count time to heal and its almost 20 turns. Not harder just a longer type of operation. But really, it has to be done sooner or later; it really shouldnt matter too much unless one or the other gets ancient cavs.

Edit: I vote Aztecs too. What turn do we declare? 3 turns if we get MM?

 

[Paul#42]

An ideal combination.

So you also vote on attacking Aztecs first?

BTW:
The last post i can find from Mark is at page 3.
He's up next.

Mark, are you still out there?

He's sneaking by every now and then. But he's a bit shy.
If he does not post, he's content with what's been said.
Markh, we need a decision here!

8 turns for them to be at war, then our ships have to travel 4 turns (if they arent out soon enough), then they have to walk a tile inland.
Edit: I vote Aztecs too. What turn do we declare? 3 turns if we get MM?

It would just make a difference of 1 turn. We should declare as soon as we have MM, then build 2 dromons (~3-4 turns), let them sail, then 2 swords - mid into the second we can land our troops, that's 3 turns after the second dromon was built and started. If I made a mistake, it's 2 turns later than an attack on Aztecs, but it should be just one.

One turn is also the extra time our reinforcements would need to reach the Japanese soil - plus one turn extra to get to the capital. We hope we don't need to send a second wave...

Also a setback (of attacking Japan) would be the extra walk on a grass tile - an extra opportunity that might cost us a sword - and that could be crucial in this battle.
I'm closed to convinced to go after Aztecs first.

I pray that someone gets MM next turn

 

[WackenOpenAir]

One turn is also the extra time our reinforcements would need to reach the Aztec soil - plus one turn extra to get to the capital. We hope we don't need to send a second wave...

Also a setback would be the extra walk on a grass tile - an extra opportunity that might cost us a sword - and that could be crucial in this battle.
I'm closed to convinced to go after Japan first.

extra turn for aztec soil, extr to get to capital, you are mixing some things up here. If that is consistent troughout your story here, that would mean you agree on attacking the aztecs ?

 

[Paul#42]

I just calculated our dromons would have a movement of 7, not 6 due to our trait. That would take our ships just 3 turns to the point marked with a 4, so both landings could happen on the same turn - it just the single step on grass we had to do in Japan. But that is a huge step for mankind...

 

[Abegweit]

It would just make a difference of 1 turn. We should declare as soon as we have MM, then build 2 dromons (~3-4 turns), let them sail, then 2 swords - mid into the second we can land our troops, that's 3 turns after the second dromon was built and started. If I made a mistake, it's 2 turns later than an attack on Aztecs, but it should be just one.

One turn is also the extra time our reinforcements would need to reach the Aztec soil - plus one turn extra to get to the capital. We hope we don't need to send a second wave...

By my count, it is seven turns to Kyoto and three to Tenothing. The difference is not nearly so bad for reinforcements. I would also say that we need more than two boats-full as well, even for the easier target.

Also a setback would be the extra walk on a grass tile - an extra opportunity that might cost us a sword - and that could be crucial in this battle.

True. Another point in favour of Japan.

 

[Abegweit]

I just calculated our dromons would have a movement of 7, not 6 due to our trait. That would take our ships just 3 turns to the point marked with a 4, so both landings could happen on the same turn - it just the single step on grass we had to do in Japan. But that is a huge step for mankind...

True. It would be seven but I don't see your math. That makes it two turns to Teno and five to Kyoto.

 

[Paul#42]

By my count, it is seven turns to Kyoto and three to Tenothing. The difference is not nearly so bad for reinforcements. I would also say that we need more than two boats-full as well, even for the easier target.

That does not mean, we would attack 4 turns later. Our dromons would already have sailed 3 turns when we could start the landing.
But of course: The final sword would take one more turn to reach the boat, we need that extra step on open soil... Small disadvantages that add up and easily weight up the Aztecs' strength...
Plus a small margin of miscalculation on my side

True. Another point in favour of Japan.

You mean in favor of saving Japaneses' worthless lives (at least a while)?

 

[markh]

I am around, guys, but most of the discussion is happening during my working time and at the moment it is quite busy (the flu in northern Germany took out two colleagues). I am following the thread, but I am not that experienced as all of you are, so I even would not know what to say other than I agree to this or that. I need to check the save to be able to give any statement and up to now I did not find the time to open the save and have a look, yet.

I just can say that I would not trash our rep so soon. Whether we should take on Japan or Aztecs first I would slightly favor the Aztecs as their cities are nearer, so less corruption and the sooner we get these cities up and running the better our research should be.

 

[Paul#42]

Okay, Aztecs it is!


1. I will wait for MM or CoL to arrive without paying Aztecs gpt.
2. If it's not from the Aztecs, I'd like to gift them Maths to make them start SoZ (for what's it worth).
3. I dow Aztecs, ally Japan immediately for tech without taking lump money from them (in that trade) not to hurt our rep if we finish the Aztecs too early.
4. I start building two dromons. First should sail to the battle fields to bomb the holy s..t out of the Aztecs and recon.
5. Timed with the final sword build we attack.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Guys, i have the feeling some of you keep mixing up Japan and Aztecs.

It looks like you are all summing up all those reasons to attack the Aztecs and not Japan, only now and then the Aztecs are called Japan. :S

Edit: Ok, gogo paul.

PS: When aztecs are destroyed while we still have an alliance against them with Japan, in what ways can our reputation be harmed? I am never so subtle with my reputation as we have to be now, so i don't know the details about this.

 

[Abegweit]

Small disadvantages that add up

Let's summarize them.
1. Teno is a town while Kyoto is a city.
2. Aztecs will be better able to protect their second city than Japs
3. Step on the grass.
4. Teno is closer.
5. We should get a wonder from taking Teno.
6. Less corruption.

Are there any arguments in the opposite direction?

Just to throw a monkey wrench in the works, what about Delhi instead?

Advantages:
1. Bigger island with more stuff to conquer
2. The Dromons can get into the action.

I'm still in favour of Teno but this option hasn't even been considered.

 

[Abegweit]

Guys, i have the feeling some of you keep mixing up Japan and Aztecs.

It looks like you are all summing up all those reasons to attack the Aztecs and not Japan, only now and then the Aztecs are called Japan. :S

True. Good reasoning. Sloppy posting.

PS: When aztecs are destroyed while we still have an alliance against them with Japan, in what ways can our reputation be harmed? I am never so subtle with my reputation as we have to be now, so i don't know the details about this.

AFAIK the only way your rep can be broken by the extinction of a civ is if it causes you to break a per-turn deal with another civ. That couldn't possibly apply here.

 

[Paul#42]

Just to throw a monkey wrench in the works, what about Delhi instead?

Nice idea! Where is it?
Too late
(unless you make a detailed plan that shows some advantages...
apart from being able to buy MM immediately)

AFAIK the only way your rep can be broken by the extinction of a civ is if it causes you to break a per-turn deal with another civ. That couldn't possibly apply here.

Imo it could apply if we do the alliance and get lump sum from Japan in the same trade.
Like we give techs and maybe 3gpt (edit: The gpt of course is essential for this example) and get the alliance and 10g.
In that case, when Aztecs fall the deal is canceled robbing Japan of the counter value of the 10g.

That's why I would avoid getting lump sum (or worker or tech) in the same deal. I could make a different deal on the same turn.
right?

Trading a tech for lump sum and alliance should be unproblematic, right?