SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[killercane]

Yes switch all knights to granaries, and if we already have a granary in the city, like Thebes, it needs to be on wealth. We also need to disband the MDI at Thebes, and all the other troops sitting around Lisbon and places doing nothing. We have no need of knights, explorers, or any other units besides workers! If gold is a problem, add some in. We need 4700 more beakers for Rep parts, this should take 5 turns.

Workers need to be stacked to irrigate, and the galleons need to be in place to move the workers from Const the same turn they are produced. There are currently 2 galleons at Thebes, and one at Teno.

Nice work on the southern island .

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Workers:
Japtec: 20+4
India: 2+10
Egypt: 17
South: 8+4
Paris: 10+7

Work to be done:
Trontheim: a little
Spain: more
South: a lot

Transport capacity:
Japtec-Egypt: 6*4 (including the one above carthage)
India West: 1*4
India East: 1*2
Paris: 1*4

I just posted about workers near orleans. That is for half the workers there. Half can mine and reirrigate for orleans and then join the city when the buildings are done. The other half can go to Paris, irrigate 3 more tiles so that paris can grow 3 more citizens at 1 turn growth. Paris can build 2 galleons, while building these, it can grow 3 sizes and then still build workers every turn.These extra boats are needed both to transport workers from Paris and those that are too many at orleans. Half of these go to spain, the other half to Southland.

On japtec island, 12 workers can join in Osaka and Teoti. 3 boats can go from Teno to Trontheim to work there. Stop railing hills there. Irrigate, board and sail.

Egypt workers can go to south when they are done.

Workers from India can be brought to Spain.

 

[Paul#42]

Half can mine and reirrigate for orleans and then join the city when the buildings are done.

There are still some tiles to do some forestry actions for Paris, Trondheim and Orleans.

The other half can go to Paris, irrigate 3 more tiles so that paris can grow 3 more citizens at 1 turn growth. Paris can build 2 galleons, while building these, it can grow 3 sizes and then still build workers every turn.

Pars needs two turns for a galleon (~43 < 50)
Okay, one can add a rifle on one of those builds.

These extra boats are needed both to transport workers from Paris and those that are too many at orleans. Half of these go to spain, the other half to Southland.

On japtec island, 12 workers can join in Osaka and Teoti. 3 boats can go from Teno to Trontheim to work there. Stop railing hills there. Irrigate, board and sail.

I thought some production was nice...
You guys are certainly right, sorry for being distracted here.

Workers from India can be brought to Spain.

Still have to wait for the dromon to reach Oporto

I won't disband the MDI in Thebes, Persians tend to be hostile... .
Not sure if a stack of three drafted rifles will hold the line...

If Mark does not show up in 24 hours, I'd say Wacken is up.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

10 turns from now, we should not be paying any more unit support.
Not paying unit support should bring us to a balance where we can be at 100&#37; science with some cities on wealth. The 351 gold we have can be the last gold we pay to unit upkeep.

I expect to run 100% science from here. It would be nice if we could do rep parts in 5 now (25 more bpt) and then the cheap ones in 4 (100 more bpt)

The 25 more bpt should easilly come from worker joining in Osaka and Teoti. The remaining 75 that we need 5 turns from now will partly come from natural growth, and partly from more workers can join by then.

Should we take out Russia or not ? (I don't know, KC ?)

I will take a look at individual cities and rushbuilds later today. Mecca looks pretty screwed up not having built its market first.

 

[Andronicus]

Should we take out Russia or not ?

Russia would appear to be a good UN opponent. (Caveat -I have little experience of diplomatic wins)
If we gifted 4 or 5 cities to Russia the turn or 2 before UN elections then dow them and ally everyone else against them this would appear to ensure a) they are clear choice as our opponent and b) most AI would vote for us. Mongols perhaps most likely not to vote for us - getting Persians and Babs to eliminate them (with a little help) after peace treaty expires may remove a potential abstainer.
I recall there is a delay of a set number of turns after UN built before elections are held. If UN completes turn we get fission, then science can be effectively turned off and those extra cities are no longer required (eg southern continent and or ex Spain - Portugal).
Anyone know for certain the turns after UN built before elections?

To win elections we require a clear majority - currently 17 civs, we require 8 AI to vote for us.

 

[Andronicus]

Looking ahead it appears we could be in modern age with fission in about 40-45 turns (9 techs plus 3 free with ToE and scientific freebie - hopefully fission)

These are
Rep Parts 4710 beakers remaining
Corporation 4000
Sci Method 4000
Steel 5600
Refining 6400
Combustion 6400
Mass Prod 5600
Mot Trans 5600
Atomic (8000 - free with ToE)
Electronics (7200 - free with ToE)
Flight 7200
Fission (11200 - lets hope we dont need to research it!)

This leads to the question of prebuilds for ToE (600 shields) and UN (1000)
Paris is our only good producer with 39spt.
The palace pre build is only worth 600 shields so Suffrage at 800 shields is best bet (but Babylon and Istanbul are already building it) next best is battlefield medicine at 500 shields.
With factory and coal plant Paris gets to 78spt, with all tiles re-mined (the scientists gained from growing will be of only small benefit overall) this becomes 67spt and 134 with factory + plant. In practice we cannot rely on this high production as pollution is sure to cut it back to some extent.

Paris could build both wonders using 800 shield Hoover as UN prebuild (if time Paris to go from under 800 shields to something over 880 on turn of age change it can be switched via TBP to UN and would complete only 1 turn later).
I make it 7 turns prebuilding UN up until age change, ? completes ToE 2 turns earlier for 9 turns to research MT and flight (could build / rush coal plant in these 2 turns), 5 turns for ToE (or 6 if no coal plant), ? build factory immed prior to ToE build to minimise pollution risk.
Naturally we would need to keep Sci Meth away from AI until ToE complete.

Well, UN should come in 5th turnset from now - decisions need to be based on a fairly short term benefit now.

edit
Progress graph looks good FWIW, territory and score suggest we have emphasized pop more than most.
I note Klarius's team have played another turnset (their latest save is 50 turns from where we are now, Team Zoe however appear to have finished (no activity 3 weeks now) a further 20 turns on.

 

[killercane]

Currently I think America would be the candidate, they have the most land/pop and I assume score (cant find their score in CA2).

Paris would be put on the Palace for the prebuild, someone needs to see if Carthago, Mongols, Maya, English and Inca cities are enough for the 1000 shielder. I forget how many cities one needs to have. Probably we take out Russia as well, they will never be a candidate but losing their free tech (which will cost more, if they have a monopoly on Rocketry I dont think we will be able to get it).

Will vote for us for sure:
Korea
Germany
Zulu
Celts
Ottomans

We will need to eliminate Carthage quickly. Having the workers sitting there kind of hurts since it will delay us a couple of turns. Carthage's units are all down south though, so we should roll through them quickly. All of our units need to be moved into so that they can eliminate Carthage quickly in 3 turns. Then we need to ship them back up north to Inca/Maya/England. If we cannot get a 1000 shield prebuild with the civs available, we can eschew any more fighting. If we do have to eliminate Inca etc., the armies can be disbanded in Paris for a 1 turn factory. Or use a leader for it. We need workers there to turn it back into a production center, these are probably the workers who are going to transform Trondheim, and can be moved right back over.

 

[Abegweit]

Like everyone else here I have no experience with a diplomatic win but the consensus of the community seems to be that it's pretty simple. Simply bring everyone into war against them. That will be particularly easy in this game where we have such a dominant science position.

The idea of gifting a few cities in order to select our opponent is a good one and we should definitely do it. A scientific civ is probably the best choice as we will be gifting as at least some of them into the next age. There is no reason for it to be Russia, though.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Someone get in the books to see how many towns we need for 1000 shields palace

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Rep Parts 4710 - 5*942
Corporation 4000 - 4*1000
Sci Method 4000 - 4*1000
Refining 6400 - 6*1067
Steel 5600 - 5*1120
Combustion 6400 - 5*1280
Mass Prod 5600 - 4*1400
Mot Trans 5600 - 4*1400
Flight 7200 - 5*1440

Total 49510 - 42 turns

It would be cool if we can swich steel and refining around and do both in 5, but i don't see that happening. I think it will be hard enough to make the list as it is now.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/c3c_palace_cost.php
We need 34 towns for the palace to cost 1000 shields. We have 23 now.

11 extra towns would cost us about 40-50 beakers possibly in orleans and trontheim when those are maxed out. We should easily be able to get those back in the 11 towns with scientists.

Southern island provides 5 more towns.
It may be nice to conquer america and remove that liability for paris.
3 Mongol towns would make it complete then.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Paris needs the following builds: Factory(240s), Coal Plant(160), ToE(600), UN(1000). 2000 total.

With everything irrigated, it will produce 34 spt.
That is 7 turns for a factory with a warrior disband or something. (now 51spt)
It needs 4 turns for the coal plant. (now 68 spt)
It then needs 9 turns for ToE.
And finally 15 turns for UN.

We should complete ToE right after Steel. We can expect this to be 24 turns from now.

Galleon 2
Galleon 2
Factory 7
Coal plant 4
ToE 9

So thats no more workers from paris.
After ToE, we have 18 more turns to finish UN.

 

[Paul#42]

We will need to eliminate Carthage quickly. Having the workers sitting there kind of hurts since it will delay us a couple of turns.

They won't be there for more than half an interturn - I used to get units teleported south because Carthaginians always booted them immediately.

However this might be the first time I have no combat unit in the stack but to get the boot command, simply move any combat unit into their territory now and our workers will go south by magic

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I added a little excel file, renamed .zip

"extra " Is the maximum amount of citizens we can still draft or whip without getting into problems at max size. The number of citizens already whipped was hard to determine for some cities as the cities do not show unhappiness. I used the turnlogs and the buildings that are completed, but it may not be 100&#37; accurate in all cases. I can't know what the AI has whipped before we captured the towns.

N. Falls could support 8 scientists max, but i choose to go for 6 only. We could whip a hospital, but i think it is better to draft instead and send those units to be disbanded in cities that need it more, or draft not at all. It would be a high investment for only 2 extra specialists.

Orleans and Trontheim are now around 50% corrupt. Conquering 11 more towns will make these towns much more corrupt. The courthouse and university are optional in these towns.

Now this needs to be worked out further. The builds are in no particular order yet. Also, cities don't have to whip only for themselves, units can be drafted in cities with a big surpluss and disbanded in cities that need it most. That i will look further into tomorrow.

 

[Abegweit]

Paris would be put on the Palace for the prebuild, someone needs to see if Carthago, Mongols, Maya, English and Inca cities are enough for the 1000 shielder. I forget how many cities one needs to have. Probably we take out Russia as well, they will never be a candidate but losing their free tech (which will cost more, if they have a monopoly on Rocketry I dont think we will be able to get it).

Cost of the Palace from the War Academy:

standard map
up to 13: 300
14-16: 400
17-19: 500
20-23: 600
24-26: 700
27-29: 800
30-33: 900
34 or more: 1000

We currently have 23 cities. Even getting the count up to 30 would be helpful.

Carthage: 4
Mongols: 4
Maya: 2
English: 2
Inca: 2

So it would take Carthage and Mongols to reach 900 shields. Add two of the others to reach 1000.

Will vote for us for sure:
Korea
Germany
Zulu
Celts
Ottomans

It's possible that not all the civs will know our intended victim. For example, Abe only knows 7 of the 15 remaining civs.

the armies can be disbanded in Paris for a 1 turn factory. Or use a leader for it.

There is no rush to build a factory. The issue is timing the UN, not the ToE.

 

[Andronicus]

900 shield palace pre build would be sufficient if Paris is brought up to over 100spt (134spt with mining, factory and plant). Therefore need 7 more cities. This would save 1 turn on UN build (and hence on victory date) as 800 shield Hoover prebuild would not allow UN build on turn we discover fission.
Agree there is no immed rush on factory / plant. Paris has the capacity to hand build factory, whipping if required. Better to spend leader on shield poor city.

Good point about not all AI knowing each other. We can always sell contacts that we want when the time comes.

Current diplo position
Polite - Carthage, Monguls (surprisingly), Inca, Korea, Maya, Celts, England, Rome, Germany, Sumeria, Ottomen
Cautious - Persia, Babs (presumably related to the trade embargoes)
Annoyed - Americans (they worry me), Zulu
Furious - Russians (naturally)

Suggest some trade with America to improve relations. perhaps ally them in our next war

War with Monguls - have 15 turns peace treaty to run
War with Carthage - have 10 turns of trade deal to run, but only receiving gpt for goods so no rep hit unless we also received cash.

Re unis / courts - civassist shows the current builds in Oporto, Trondheim, and Lisbon would each only add 3 science - getting more scientists avail would appear to have more return on investment (ie granaries in Lisbon and Oporto)

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Cost of the Palace from the War Academy:

standard map
up to 13: 300
14-16: 400
17-19: 500
20-23: 600
24-26: 700
27-29: 800
30-33: 900
34 or more: 1000

We currently have 23 cities. Even getting the count up to 30 would be helpful.

Carthage: 4
Mongols: 4
Maya: 2
English: 2
Inca: 2

So it would take Carthage and Mongols to reach 900 shields. Add two of the others to reach 1000.

It's possible that not all the civs will know our intended victim. For example, Abe only knows 7 of the 15 remaining civs.

There is no rush to build a factory. The issue is timing the UN, not the ToE.

Could you please read my post. ?
The factory certainly is an issue. If we don't build ToE in time, we don't have time to build the UN.
I also posted about the shields and 11 towns to conquer.

 

[Abegweit]

Could you please read my post. ?
The factory certainly is an issue. If we don't build ToE in time, we don't have time to build the UN.

You yourself state that there is time to hand-build it. Obviously we have to time tings so that everything is build in time. KC was talking about rushing the factory.

I also posted about the shields and 11 towns to conquer.

again. You asked about how many towns it takes to reach a 1000-shield palace. So I looked it up.

Edit: I see where you talked about this. I suppose I cross-posted. I had prepared the post and then my Internet connection went down. I only actually made it several hours later.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Looking at the numbers from the recently posted excel file:

The leader should imo go to Mecca. Mecca should complete its market next turn, then leader rush the hospital. It can then get going at 2 turn growth. Mecca can then at size 6-7 draft every turn for 8 turns. Providing 160 shields for another city.

Medina should just rush a granary and it's done. When enough work is done at medina, it can also get drafts every turn at size 6-7 for 6 turns, providing another 120 shields for another city.

Sparta needs a lot of improvements. In order: Granary-Library-Marketplace-Hospital. It can do 6 whips itself and needs 240 shields from Mecca / Medina

Athens, needs the same improvements. It can do a bit more whipping itself. It can use the remaining 80 shields from Medina.

N. Falls, St. Peters, Salamanca each need only a Granary. These can easilly be whipped. They may be able to provide drafts for other cities later.

Pyongyang doesn't need a lot, it can get operational at small size.

Barca and Madrid need a lot of improvements and will not be able to rush it all. It is probably best to have 1 of these cities support the other with drafts and make only 1 farm here. I don't think we get them both running before the game is about to finish.

Oporto and Lisbon also need a lot of help from outside. A little of that could come from Delhi's and Bombay. When these have their granaries done, they could do a few 1 turn drafts for Oporto and Lisbon.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

You yourself state that there is time to hand-build it. Obviously we have to time tings so that everything is build in time. KC was talking about rushing the factory.

again. You asked about how many towns it takes to reach a 1000-shield palace. So I looked it up.

Edit: I see where you talked about this. I suppose I cross-posted. I had prepared the post and then my Internet connection went down. I only actually made it several hours later.

Ok, no problems.

So what do you guys think we should conquer?
And KC, how do you expect to conquer Carthage so fast with all their units in our territory ?
Armies won't be attacked normally, but does that work when they are in a city as well ?
We also have Moscow on a hills to be taken.

If it's ok with you, i could play tonight. I think conquering Carthage will take all 10 turns though.

 

[Andronicus]

We also have Moscow on a hills to be taken.

Do we need to take Moscow?
900 shield palace is sufficient for Paris's UN pre-build- thats 30 cities
Carthage (4)) and Monguls (3) provide that
This would leave Russia avail for change of age freebie (you never know, all other scientific civs could get non fission and Russia gets it)
Russia would be good UN opponent if after researching to modern age and building UN we then gift southern continent to Russia. This should give it sufficient pop to ensure it is UN opponent (largest pop AI is opponent). Then just a matter of dow the turn before elections and MA everyone against them. Since no other AI on southern continent (assuming we have eliminated Carthage) Russian cities cannot be taken in inter turn (as they would be if we gifted Mongul cities for example) ensuring they remain our UN opponent

Peace ASAP with Russia would also free up forces to eliminate Carthage quicker.
Re Carthage forces - there appears to be a trail of them heading east ? barb camp in the fog SE of Sparta. 14 units in all - half are NMs. This would appear to be opportune as easier to kill them in the open than fortified in cities. Unfortunately I dont see us being able to take all 4 cities whilst avoiding fighting these forces.