WackenOpenAir
Deity
The irrigation was due next turn. When an improvemnt is due next turn, you will get the benefit of it. So it would have been 10 food.
SGOTM 12 - Spooks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
The irrigation was due next turn. When an improvemnt is due next turn, you will get the benefit of it. So it would have been 10 food.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Sorry. It was due the turn afterwards, and that's with wasting a worker turn to get it from 3 turns to 2 (which I did).
Edit: sorry. Now I see where I went wrong
It has nothing to do with when the irrigation is ready. I should have been working all three cows, the lake and the BG. What a dope. How can I not have seen something as basic as that?
Edit: sorry. Now I see where I went wrong
It has nothing to do with when the irrigation is ready. I should have been working all three cows, the lake and the BG. What a dope. How can I not have seen something as basic as that?
killercane
Deity
Ok my plan, reposted for clarity.
Build Curragh, and then Rax and 3 Swords if we have iron. I plan to get ironworking from India (who has spices and should be our trade partner until we are ready to kill them) for 3 gpt. This will speed them toward Mapmaking a bit. Wacken hates this, but I like it. Alternative is give a lump sum with which they might do something dumb.
Finagle mathematics from our erstwhile friends. Take Currency. If no math by the time philo is set to come in, I will stop and we can then discuss. I will play here after 1 trip to the flower shop so I can fall victim to flower price gouging, and after I get a chance to put some steaks on the barbie.
Build Curragh, and then Rax and 3 Swords if we have iron. I plan to get ironworking from India (who has spices and should be our trade partner until we are ready to kill them) for 3 gpt. This will speed them toward Mapmaking a bit. Wacken hates this, but I like it. Alternative is give a lump sum with which they might do something dumb.
Finagle mathematics from our erstwhile friends. Take Currency. If no math by the time philo is set to come in, I will stop and we can then discuss. I will play here after 1 trip to the flower shop so I can fall victim to flower price gouging, and after I get a chance to put some steaks on the barbie.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
normally in civ when going for fast research, units are better than a library until you are like halfway the middle ages. The cities and ground for ICS conquered by the units simply deliver more science for your shields than a library.
In this situation however, the cities we are gonna conquer are not defended by 2 spears. We will have to fight whole armies for just 1 city. Meanwhile the library is not gonna be build in a 10 commerce town, but a 20 commerce town. Also the lib is half price.
Therefore, a library has priority here. We need it asap.
Assumption:
We can trade math, research philo in 8 turns and get currency for free.
We also get Iron Working and Map map Making in trade soon.
We then research Literature because the AI doesn't like it. IIRC, Lit costs the same as philo so that would be another 8 turns. With KC buying writing this turn, that means 16 turns to Literature.
With Literature we can hopefull trade the remaining AA techs.
We should have the Library finished not long after we research Literature. We will also have the choise to build a market then, but that is not valuable enough to gain priority over units (lib = 10 science, market = 3 commerce max for now)
The Library costs 40 shields. It would be nice if we have 20spt to build it and start the prebuild 1 turn in advance, 15 turns from now. After the Library, we may be in the Middle ages, or we will be there very soon. Producing MDI, we also need 20 spt. For 20spt, we hope the hill has iron for 4 shields, and we could mine one of the ivory plains. We need this job done soon.
However, we have 2 workers, and there is another luxery, so we don't have any excess workers available !
How can we solve this?
-We could simply make a worker now. This would remove one scientist and double the food surplus to 4. It would then take 6 turns to regrow to size 12. This worker would be available to work all 16 turns.
18 commerce for 16 worker turns and more
-We could delay a collony on lux. Since our happiness is now in balance on 20%, we should delay both collonies or none as one collony wont get us to 10%. We can make the collonies when the workers are done. 2 commerce per 2 worker turns.
How many worker turns do we need ?
road hill(6), mine hill(12), mine Ivory BG(6). So while 1 worker we could build now is not enough, the 2 workers from the luxury can do it in 12 turns. It will unfortunately cost is 24 science, being 1 turn. But it will pay back many turns in production speed when we make MDI in a good 20 turns from now.
So the 2 workers we have should first do the hill and mine a plains. They should finish this together and then make both collonies.
Other than that, we can increase production to about 26 before we have engineering. We will however have engineering soon after we enter the middle ages. Also in the range of 20 turns from now. We can then build a forest on the cow, cut both jungles and mine those grasslands. That will get us to 30 spt. That is also a pretty number as it allows us to build dromons in 1 turn. However, it does not help the production of MDI or even Knights.
Therefore, i think we should not go to great lengths to reach this 30spt prodution. It would require great effords to get this in short time.
Instead, i think we should make sure we first produce the dromons we need while we still make 15spt and make only units when we have 20 spt.
However, we should meanwhile keep improving the tiles. If we happen to get a golden age, we will want our tiles improved to produce 40 shields per turn for 1 turn units. We are currently producing a worker due in 13 turns. This worker alone will take like 100 turns though to do all the needed work. I think we should make another worker after this one, not by waiting for the foodbox to be full, but by making it and then growing back the food at 4fpt. We could try and see bewteen turn 13 and 16 if there is a point where it can be done without delaying Literacy. After Literacy, we could maybe even make another one, but we can see that later.
Meanwhile we can produce units:
turn 1: curragh
turn 4: barracks
turn 6,8,10: 3 swords for protection
turn 11: Worker
turn 13,15: Dromons.
turn 17: Library
turn 19,21,..: Dromons while we still can't make MDI ?
Then: MDI
BTW, i aint sure we need to research HBR. I ain't sure, it's been long ago since i was scientific, but i think:
we trade ourselves into the middle ages. Without leaving the trade screen, we bring our new MA tech to the scientific civs. After we close the trade screen, they get their tech, a different one than we got. ?
In this situation however, the cities we are gonna conquer are not defended by 2 spears. We will have to fight whole armies for just 1 city. Meanwhile the library is not gonna be build in a 10 commerce town, but a 20 commerce town. Also the lib is half price.
Therefore, a library has priority here. We need it asap.
Assumption:
We can trade math, research philo in 8 turns and get currency for free.
We also get Iron Working and Map map Making in trade soon.
We then research Literature because the AI doesn't like it. IIRC, Lit costs the same as philo so that would be another 8 turns. With KC buying writing this turn, that means 16 turns to Literature.
With Literature we can hopefull trade the remaining AA techs.
We should have the Library finished not long after we research Literature. We will also have the choise to build a market then, but that is not valuable enough to gain priority over units (lib = 10 science, market = 3 commerce max for now)
The Library costs 40 shields. It would be nice if we have 20spt to build it and start the prebuild 1 turn in advance, 15 turns from now. After the Library, we may be in the Middle ages, or we will be there very soon. Producing MDI, we also need 20 spt. For 20spt, we hope the hill has iron for 4 shields, and we could mine one of the ivory plains. We need this job done soon.
However, we have 2 workers, and there is another luxery, so we don't have any excess workers available !
How can we solve this?
-We could simply make a worker now. This would remove one scientist and double the food surplus to 4. It would then take 6 turns to regrow to size 12. This worker would be available to work all 16 turns.
18 commerce for 16 worker turns and more
-We could delay a collony on lux. Since our happiness is now in balance on 20%, we should delay both collonies or none as one collony wont get us to 10%. We can make the collonies when the workers are done. 2 commerce per 2 worker turns.
How many worker turns do we need ?
road hill(6), mine hill(12), mine Ivory BG(6). So while 1 worker we could build now is not enough, the 2 workers from the luxury can do it in 12 turns. It will unfortunately cost is 24 science, being 1 turn. But it will pay back many turns in production speed when we make MDI in a good 20 turns from now.
So the 2 workers we have should first do the hill and mine a plains. They should finish this together and then make both collonies.
Other than that, we can increase production to about 26 before we have engineering. We will however have engineering soon after we enter the middle ages. Also in the range of 20 turns from now. We can then build a forest on the cow, cut both jungles and mine those grasslands. That will get us to 30 spt. That is also a pretty number as it allows us to build dromons in 1 turn. However, it does not help the production of MDI or even Knights.
Therefore, i think we should not go to great lengths to reach this 30spt prodution. It would require great effords to get this in short time.
Instead, i think we should make sure we first produce the dromons we need while we still make 15spt and make only units when we have 20 spt.
However, we should meanwhile keep improving the tiles. If we happen to get a golden age, we will want our tiles improved to produce 40 shields per turn for 1 turn units. We are currently producing a worker due in 13 turns. This worker alone will take like 100 turns though to do all the needed work. I think we should make another worker after this one, not by waiting for the foodbox to be full, but by making it and then growing back the food at 4fpt. We could try and see bewteen turn 13 and 16 if there is a point where it can be done without delaying Literacy. After Literacy, we could maybe even make another one, but we can see that later.
Meanwhile we can produce units:
turn 1: curragh
turn 4: barracks
turn 6,8,10: 3 swords for protection
turn 11: Worker
turn 13,15: Dromons.
turn 17: Library
turn 19,21,..: Dromons while we still can't make MDI ?
Then: MDI
BTW, i aint sure we need to research HBR. I ain't sure, it's been long ago since i was scientific, but i think:
we trade ourselves into the middle ages. Without leaving the trade screen, we bring our new MA tech to the scientific civs. After we close the trade screen, they get their tech, a different one than we got. ?
I guess I'll have to read that again... 
It might be necessary to make a third colony - if the Iron is out of range.
Maybe we should build the temple to spare that (two) worker(s) if we have to wait till connection that long anyway?
They will get their free tech before we can trade them the first MA-tech
The only way is the way KC described it but without the optional government techs I see no chance to buy those free techs before we get ours. Imo we have to get our free tech, then get the other SCIs to MA, and trade for theirs which should work because they don't know each other.
I hate to leave the discussion but I'm on a business trip till friday night. Carnival in Cologne
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
I hope I can have a look here on friday but I won't bet on being able to read...
Take your time, play thoroughly. Have fun
WackenOpenAir
Deity
We should by the way try to avoid our golden age untill we can really use it (production to 40, possibly even science wonders to multiply the commerce)
Bombarding coastal units / cities wont get us into a golden age. Winning naval battles can be prevented by bombing other ships. Being damaged will cause them to retreat to port rather than fight.
"The only way is the way KC described it but without the optional government techs I see no chance to buy those free techs before we get ours. Imo we have to get our free tech, then get the other SCIs to MA, and trade for theirs which should work because they don't know each other."
Well, we may be able to buy a tech with gpt and then get back our gpt by selling them our free tech. However, i don't know if we can manage to get enough gpt with just our one city (i don't think so) and we may also not get back all of it. I think your idea may be better. There are probably enough Scientific civs that even if we let them all just get a random tech, all techs will be distributed.
Bombarding coastal units / cities wont get us into a golden age. Winning naval battles can be prevented by bombing other ships. Being damaged will cause them to retreat to port rather than fight.
"The only way is the way KC described it but without the optional government techs I see no chance to buy those free techs before we get ours. Imo we have to get our free tech, then get the other SCIs to MA, and trade for theirs which should work because they don't know each other."
Well, we may be able to buy a tech with gpt and then get back our gpt by selling them our free tech. However, i don't know if we can manage to get enough gpt with just our one city (i don't think so) and we may also not get back all of it. I think your idea may be better. There are probably enough Scientific civs that even if we let them all just get a random tech, all techs will be distributed.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Lit is actually 400 beakers while Philo is but 240. This means it will take around 14 turns, depending on exactly how we approach growth. It also means that one worker can do the whole job in time, aside perhaps from a couple turns left on roading the hill. You are quite right that one lux is almost useless; all it does is to allow us to hire a scientist instead of working the lake. Therefore our objective is to get to two colonies ASAP while getting the two mines in place before we get to Lit.
If we don't build a worker, I count worker 28 turns, including movement and overruns, before the colonies are in place. Therefore, the best we can do is 14 * 28 = 392 beakers over this period. If instead we build the worker now, it is 24 * 6 + 31 * 8 = ... 392 Beakers! At the end we have a worker instead of a curragh.
Pretty much a wash.
Edit: actually the no-worker choice is 393 since one colony will be built one turn before the other.
killercane
Deity
Ok playing now.
killercane
Deity
Preturn
Trade Writing from India for 57 gold. It would take 4 gpt. I think that is too much and hope the money will be around in 8 turns.
Trade Writing to Spain for IW and 5 gold. We have iron on the hill. Cant get Masonry too.
Trade Writing to Rome for 7 gold and Masonry.
The hill is not roaded. I cannot connect the incense and then get swords out so I will delay hooking that up.
Turn 1
Contact Persia. They are at tech parity with us so they have writing. Roading on the iron now. Move worker back to connect it.
Turn 2
Not much. Building rax. Yellow borders spotted near Persia. On the interturn Paris completes the Pyramids.
Turn 3
Contact Maya across the bay. We cannot do writing for mysticism with them. Meet Egypt. They dont have anything we dont have. They lack writing.
Turn 4
Build rax and switch to temple as sword prebuild. No news.
Turn 5
Meet Inca. Trade IW for Mysticism and 34 gold. India is down to 12 gold. I will stop here for now. Finish the rest in an hour. No one has math yet.
Trade Writing from India for 57 gold. It would take 4 gpt. I think that is too much and hope the money will be around in 8 turns.
Trade Writing to Spain for IW and 5 gold. We have iron on the hill. Cant get Masonry too.
Trade Writing to Rome for 7 gold and Masonry.
The hill is not roaded. I cannot connect the incense and then get swords out so I will delay hooking that up.
Turn 1
Contact Persia. They are at tech parity with us so they have writing. Roading on the iron now. Move worker back to connect it.
Turn 2
Not much. Building rax. Yellow borders spotted near Persia. On the interturn Paris completes the Pyramids.
Turn 3
Contact Maya across the bay. We cannot do writing for mysticism with them. Meet Egypt. They dont have anything we dont have. They lack writing.
Turn 4
Build rax and switch to temple as sword prebuild. No news.
Turn 5
Meet Inca. Trade IW for Mysticism and 34 gold. India is down to 12 gold. I will stop here for now. Finish the rest in an hour. No one has math yet.
killercane
Deity
Ok. On the interturn the Ottomans finish the Oracle.
Turn 6
Sword built. No new AIs. No new techs. All the AIs have negligible gold. Make the incense colony. Im going to make the wine colony too. Fire a scientist and hire a coast tile to get the food box full in five turns so we can build a worker.
Turn 7
No new AIs. Settle wines. Turn down lux and hire a scientist. Philo in 2. By god, India has math.
Turn 8
See some new borders, contact next turn. Philo in 1. Sword complete. Turn down philo a notch to get 3 gold.
Interturn
We get philo, dial up India. They want 16 gpt and philo for math after negotiation. No other civs have it. What to do? In SP game I would do it, but would have to trade something in a few turns to get the gpt back. I stop here with the window open to let everyone chime in. Some civs have had writing for 12 turns so I would assume that they are nearing on Mapmaking. I wait for input from everyone and take it up in the morning (8 hours).
DEAL.... or No deal?........
Turn 6
Sword built. No new AIs. No new techs. All the AIs have negligible gold. Make the incense colony. Im going to make the wine colony too. Fire a scientist and hire a coast tile to get the food box full in five turns so we can build a worker.
Turn 7
No new AIs. Settle wines. Turn down lux and hire a scientist. Philo in 2. By god, India has math.
Turn 8
See some new borders, contact next turn. Philo in 1. Sword complete. Turn down philo a notch to get 3 gold.
Interturn
We get philo, dial up India. They want 16 gpt and philo for math after negotiation. No other civs have it. What to do? In SP game I would do it, but would have to trade something in a few turns to get the gpt back. I stop here with the window open to let everyone chime in. Some civs have had writing for 12 turns so I would assume that they are nearing on Mapmaking. I wait for input from everyone and take it up in the morning (8 hours).
DEAL.... or No deal?........
Andronicus
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,672
My vote would be to do a deal now - what would you get if not currency? - poly, MM are prioritised by AI, lit is good for us to research next so choice is do deal and get free currency or no deal and get free CoL.
My experience with paying large gpt in this situation is you can trade your freebie tech back for some of the payment but a sig portion of the gpt payment just disappears. The question then becomes do we hold the currency monoploly until MM, poly etc avail to trade or try to recoup our money as best as poss?
btw - how much will 16gpt hurt us (ie how long till our bank balance runs out with max research and then how much can we research paying 16gpt with no cash?)
With the large number of AI and us hopefully having most contacts we should be in position to gain most from being at forefront of tech race.
The reward to India of gpt should help their tech pace and I would have thought the more good teching partners we get the better
My experience with paying large gpt in this situation is you can trade your freebie tech back for some of the payment but a sig portion of the gpt payment just disappears. The question then becomes do we hold the currency monoploly until MM, poly etc avail to trade or try to recoup our money as best as poss?
btw - how much will 16gpt hurt us (ie how long till our bank balance runs out with max research and then how much can we research paying 16gpt with no cash?)
With the large number of AI and us hopefully having most contacts we should be in position to gain most from being at forefront of tech race.
The reward to India of gpt should help their tech pace and I would have thought the more good teching partners we get the better
Andronicus
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,672
It has been mentioned before but I bring it up again now since we are about to get a monopoly tech which the AI could extort from us
We should have a list of AI's divided up into friends (we give into their requests for techs, we aid their wars, we gift them techs that open the tech tree - eg writing & maths), enemies (we refuse their demands - war happiness is welcomed, we keep them backward so we or our buddies can take over their cities), undecided (actions depend on circumstances)
In the first group I would place India at the moment.
In the second group Japan, Aztecs and Rome (all poor researchers and have land near us which will have low corruption) One of Japan or Aztecs should be temporary buddy to ally v the other before we take both their cities.
France looks to have super city with its wonders (thinking like Entremont in the India to the moon saga). Have we come into contact with them yet?
We should have a list of AI's divided up into friends (we give into their requests for techs, we aid their wars, we gift them techs that open the tech tree - eg writing & maths), enemies (we refuse their demands - war happiness is welcomed, we keep them backward so we or our buddies can take over their cities), undecided (actions depend on circumstances)
In the first group I would place India at the moment.
In the second group Japan, Aztecs and Rome (all poor researchers and have land near us which will have low corruption) One of Japan or Aztecs should be temporary buddy to ally v the other before we take both their cities.
France looks to have super city with its wonders (thinking like Entremont in the India to the moon saga). Have we come into contact with them yet?
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Hmm, lets see whats the costs
Construction: 800
Currency: 640
MM: 480
Poly: 480
COL: 400
Lit: 400
What options:
Take the deal and not selling currency immeadiately:
If we would take the deal, our research would be down to 10 or something with no cash reserves. That would mean 30 turns to research Lit.
Meanwhile, we'd be paying India to possibly research construction en less than 20 turns.
20 turns from now, we'd have to hope that we still have a monopoly on Currency and be able to trade it for construction. That won't happen. The AI does not dislike currency that much. We are now researching writing and have no construction while the AI is in MA.
I think we end up with the AI being in middle ages and we being unable to trade all techs.
take the deal and buy back gpt with currency
If we would try to get it back by selling them currency, how much would we expect to get back, indeed part of it always seems to disapear.
Lets assume we can get back 10gpt.
We could now research Literature in 20 turns. With less gpt, they may also need 20 turns for construction or a little less.
We could try and trade HBR, MM, COL, Poly with currency in between.
Then, we would have to try and trade Construction with Literature.
-we risk Lit not being enough for construction.
-we risk an AI even researching Lit.
Decline the deal and take Literature for free
If we do not take the dea, Lit is the clear winner for free tech. The other techs will be researched by the AI anyways.
If we take Lit for free, we can build a Library kind of immeadiately. That is 13 turns earlier than expected (unfortunately not at 20 spt) 13 turns times 13 science makes it worth another 169 extra science.
We should then start researching Currency ourselves at 40 scienc per turn. In this scenario, we will research Corrency in 16 turns and we also have Literarture to trade freely when we want untl that time.
I strongly favor declining the deal and taking Literature for free. Instead of 640 free science, we'd get 400 + 169 from he lib. That is almost as much. (wich translates into the 14turns to research Lit, or the 16 turns to research currency)
We'd have a lot more trading power and less risks.
Edit: Its even much more in favor of taking LIterature for free. I compared it to the expected 14 turns full research. Not to the 20 or 30 turns research after paying gpt. Therefore, it is worth not 169, but 260 or more science.
PS: please give some thought to the HBR discussions.
Construction: 800
Currency: 640
MM: 480
Poly: 480
COL: 400
Lit: 400
What options:
Take the deal and not selling currency immeadiately:
If we would take the deal, our research would be down to 10 or something with no cash reserves. That would mean 30 turns to research Lit.
Meanwhile, we'd be paying India to possibly research construction en less than 20 turns.
20 turns from now, we'd have to hope that we still have a monopoly on Currency and be able to trade it for construction. That won't happen. The AI does not dislike currency that much. We are now researching writing and have no construction while the AI is in MA.
I think we end up with the AI being in middle ages and we being unable to trade all techs.
take the deal and buy back gpt with currency
If we would try to get it back by selling them currency, how much would we expect to get back, indeed part of it always seems to disapear.
Lets assume we can get back 10gpt.
We could now research Literature in 20 turns. With less gpt, they may also need 20 turns for construction or a little less.
We could try and trade HBR, MM, COL, Poly with currency in between.
Then, we would have to try and trade Construction with Literature.
-we risk Lit not being enough for construction.
-we risk an AI even researching Lit.
Decline the deal and take Literature for free
If we do not take the dea, Lit is the clear winner for free tech. The other techs will be researched by the AI anyways.
If we take Lit for free, we can build a Library kind of immeadiately. That is 13 turns earlier than expected (unfortunately not at 20 spt) 13 turns times 13 science makes it worth another 169 extra science.
We should then start researching Currency ourselves at 40 scienc per turn. In this scenario, we will research Corrency in 16 turns and we also have Literarture to trade freely when we want untl that time.
I strongly favor declining the deal and taking Literature for free. Instead of 640 free science, we'd get 400 + 169 from he lib. That is almost as much. (wich translates into the 14turns to research Lit, or the 16 turns to research currency)
We'd have a lot more trading power and less risks.
Edit: Its even much more in favor of taking LIterature for free. I compared it to the expected 14 turns full research. Not to the 20 or 30 turns research after paying gpt. Therefore, it is worth not 169, but 260 or more science.
PS: please give some thought to the HBR discussions.
Andronicus
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,672
I suspect this will not be like usual deity 'pelago game
The limit to number of AI cities will reduce AI research
Feud rather than republic (extra commerce per commerced tile) will limit AI research
Unit costs may limit AI research - no settlers to make - once wonders and buildings gone, AI will make units until it is broke?
Normal play involves using our increased contacts to keep up with / catch up with AI, slowing AI rate with wars and isolating islands where poss
I think the chances of us being left in the dust by AI is small, if at all
Rather I think we may need to speed AI research to be earliest to UN
Some possible ways of doing this
- spreading contacts (pass MM around when avail)
- gifting techs (puts us in the good books with future voters) esp ones leading to multiple techs
- gpt to good AI researchers
- wipe out poor AI researchers
Re current situation
MM and poly will likely be avail very soon, not all will know India so to them currency likely to still be a monopoly even if we have traded it to India.
I think provided we keep focusing on gaining contacts we should have ample trade opportunities, hopefully some gold for techs with backward AI's would fund continued research whilst paying India gpt
Re HBR thingy
If we gain our last AA tech from a trade do we get our freebie tech before we can go to TBP?
If so then the rationale is to research cheap HBR after trading for penultimate AA tech.
If we gift scientific AIs up to MA we would have situation where multiple AI would draw same freebie bring down cost of that tech (eg 3 AIs draw mono - we may be able to trade with 1 of them for mono with lit + small gpt, then trade mono around for feud and engineering, going back to civ we got mono from for regaining gpt for feud + engineering) we would then get a second tier tech as our freebie?
A more complicated and expensive scenario would involve advancing the scientific AIs one at a time, buying / trading the 3 first tier techs when possible, then gifting any remaining AI to MA plus first tier techs - is it possible for them to get 2nd tier tech? - I thought not but am unsure. If possible we could get a different 2nd tier tech as our freebie to trade.
The limit to number of AI cities will reduce AI research
Feud rather than republic (extra commerce per commerced tile) will limit AI research
Unit costs may limit AI research - no settlers to make - once wonders and buildings gone, AI will make units until it is broke?
Normal play involves using our increased contacts to keep up with / catch up with AI, slowing AI rate with wars and isolating islands where poss
I think the chances of us being left in the dust by AI is small, if at all
Rather I think we may need to speed AI research to be earliest to UN
Some possible ways of doing this
- spreading contacts (pass MM around when avail)
- gifting techs (puts us in the good books with future voters) esp ones leading to multiple techs
- gpt to good AI researchers
- wipe out poor AI researchers
Re current situation
MM and poly will likely be avail very soon, not all will know India so to them currency likely to still be a monopoly even if we have traded it to India.
I think provided we keep focusing on gaining contacts we should have ample trade opportunities, hopefully some gold for techs with backward AI's would fund continued research whilst paying India gpt
Re HBR thingy
If we gain our last AA tech from a trade do we get our freebie tech before we can go to TBP?
If so then the rationale is to research cheap HBR after trading for penultimate AA tech.
If we gift scientific AIs up to MA we would have situation where multiple AI would draw same freebie bring down cost of that tech (eg 3 AIs draw mono - we may be able to trade with 1 of them for mono with lit + small gpt, then trade mono around for feud and engineering, going back to civ we got mono from for regaining gpt for feud + engineering) we would then get a second tier tech as our freebie?
A more complicated and expensive scenario would involve advancing the scientific AIs one at a time, buying / trading the 3 first tier techs when possible, then gifting any remaining AI to MA plus first tier techs - is it possible for them to get 2nd tier tech? - I thought not but am unsure. If possible we could get a different 2nd tier tech as our freebie to trade.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Deal or No Deal
No AI is gonna pay us GPT. We can get 10 gold from an AI now and then, but it won't be enough to make up for the gpt we pay by far.
Indeed, they may drown themselves in units. They won't all be alone on islands though, so they can fight with the units.
Fruthermore, even if they drown themselves in units, paying gpt is no sollution, it will just cause them to have more units before being drowned and we are paying their upkeep rather than researching. The best way to avoid this i think is inciting wars. I do not know if this will cause problems for our diplomatic goals.
That is all later in the game however, at the moment, the AI seems to be researching pretty darn fine. They have 3 cities and they pay 60%, surely, they research faster than we can.
And please note, getting Lit for free is almost as good as getting currency for free even if we wouldn't pay a peny for it. And if we want to ensure India keeps researching, we should get thim into war rather than giving up our own research for them. They are not alone on their island. (of course, their enemy should be a weaker one, or there must be a third on the island for a 2v1 war.)
About the horseback riding thing:
It really has been a long time since i did this.
If we research HBR to get into the middle ages, will it be possible to gain more than just the first 3 techs from the AI's free techs ? Can you make each and every scientific civ get another tech until we are halfway trough the middle ages ?
I'd assume, to do that we need to buy the techs for gold. We would first have to gift them the available techs so that they will get another free tech, then we can buy their free tech. Then, we could do the same with the second civ. get back our gold from the first with the tech from the second and proceed to the third. So this would require the gold to buy 2 MA techs. gpt wont really work since we only get back part of it and we will quickly run out.
If you don't think we can get more than the 3 starting techs, i think we can just take HBR in trade, bring ourselves and the scientifics into MA and trade. There are enough scientifcs that we will get all 3 of those MA techs amongst them to trade.
If the AI's are really gonna drown themselves into upkeep, maybe we should kill none of the scientific civs and do that tech cascading thing and buying them with gold when we go into the industrial age. For that, we would need to delay going into industrial and first stash loads of gold, but if we can then get one free tech for each scientific civ, it will be more than worth it.
We cannot likely stash gold before middle ages or the AI's will have done their own trading tricks before we get there.
BTW, if i am gonna be outvoted and you happen to take the deal anyway
, i think the only way to get back a significant part of the gpt is by doing it immeadiately. If you wait a few turns, i think the gpt will be incorporated in their economy, paying their upkeeps and we may not be able to get back any of it.
No AI is gonna pay us GPT. We can get 10 gold from an AI now and then, but it won't be enough to make up for the gpt we pay by far.
Indeed, they may drown themselves in units. They won't all be alone on islands though, so they can fight with the units.
Fruthermore, even if they drown themselves in units, paying gpt is no sollution, it will just cause them to have more units before being drowned and we are paying their upkeep rather than researching. The best way to avoid this i think is inciting wars. I do not know if this will cause problems for our diplomatic goals.
That is all later in the game however, at the moment, the AI seems to be researching pretty darn fine. They have 3 cities and they pay 60%, surely, they research faster than we can.
And please note, getting Lit for free is almost as good as getting currency for free even if we wouldn't pay a peny for it. And if we want to ensure India keeps researching, we should get thim into war rather than giving up our own research for them. They are not alone on their island. (of course, their enemy should be a weaker one, or there must be a third on the island for a 2v1 war.)
About the horseback riding thing:
It really has been a long time since i did this.
If we research HBR to get into the middle ages, will it be possible to gain more than just the first 3 techs from the AI's free techs ? Can you make each and every scientific civ get another tech until we are halfway trough the middle ages ?
I'd assume, to do that we need to buy the techs for gold. We would first have to gift them the available techs so that they will get another free tech, then we can buy their free tech. Then, we could do the same with the second civ. get back our gold from the first with the tech from the second and proceed to the third. So this would require the gold to buy 2 MA techs. gpt wont really work since we only get back part of it and we will quickly run out.
If you don't think we can get more than the 3 starting techs, i think we can just take HBR in trade, bring ourselves and the scientifics into MA and trade. There are enough scientifcs that we will get all 3 of those MA techs amongst them to trade.
If the AI's are really gonna drown themselves into upkeep, maybe we should kill none of the scientific civs and do that tech cascading thing and buying them with gold when we go into the industrial age. For that, we would need to delay going into industrial and first stash loads of gold, but if we can then get one free tech for each scientific civ, it will be more than worth it.
We cannot likely stash gold before middle ages or the AI's will have done their own trading tricks before we get there.
BTW, if i am gonna be outvoted and you happen to take the deal anyway
, i think the only way to get back a significant part of the gpt is by doing it immeadiately. If you wait a few turns, i think the gpt will be incorporated in their economy, paying their upkeeps and we may not be able to get back any of it.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
The HBR issue
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/free_tech.php
So:
-We cannot guide the AI's to get a second level tech.
-We could in theory get a second level tech ourselves, but that requires buying all 3 techs up front. So practically, we cannot get more than 3 techs.
-We need to buy the AI's tech upfront and then try to get our cash back with our own free tech.
We could do the trick as described, we may have the funds to do it with one tech, but we really won't have the funds to buy 2 up front.
We could also just trade HBR then go MA and get our free tech. Then, we gift AI's into MA until 2 of them have a tech that we do not have. However, while doing this, one or more AI's could get the same tech we have. This will decrease the value of our tech. If most of the AI's happen to get the same tech we have, we may not be able to trade another 1 on 1 (the third shouldnt be a problem as we can then trade 2 for 1)
Much here depends on the contacts the AI's have. If they have less contacts than we do, we may still be able to trade 1 on 1 if many get our tech.
Researching HBR and using the trick:
-Lose a few turns on the HBR research.
-Lose gpt to the AI because we have to pay upfront and won't get it all back.
-Risk not even be able to buy up front.
Trade HBR and get random techs.
-risk getting the tech that is known by most AI and thus getting bad trades.
Since the first option is certain to cost us money and the second option MAY cost us money, i prefer the second.
We should also think about making ambasies with our friends, espescially India. This will allow us to see their slider settings so that we know when to get them into a war, and it will show their contacts that may help us in the MA tech trading.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/free_tech.php
So:
-We cannot guide the AI's to get a second level tech.
-We could in theory get a second level tech ourselves, but that requires buying all 3 techs up front. So practically, we cannot get more than 3 techs.
-We need to buy the AI's tech upfront and then try to get our cash back with our own free tech.
We could do the trick as described, we may have the funds to do it with one tech, but we really won't have the funds to buy 2 up front.
We could also just trade HBR then go MA and get our free tech. Then, we gift AI's into MA until 2 of them have a tech that we do not have. However, while doing this, one or more AI's could get the same tech we have. This will decrease the value of our tech. If most of the AI's happen to get the same tech we have, we may not be able to trade another 1 on 1 (the third shouldnt be a problem as we can then trade 2 for 1)
Much here depends on the contacts the AI's have. If they have less contacts than we do, we may still be able to trade 1 on 1 if many get our tech.
Researching HBR and using the trick:
-Lose a few turns on the HBR research.
-Lose gpt to the AI because we have to pay upfront and won't get it all back.
-Risk not even be able to buy up front.
Trade HBR and get random techs.
-risk getting the tech that is known by most AI and thus getting bad trades.
Since the first option is certain to cost us money and the second option MAY cost us money, i prefer the second.
We should also think about making ambasies with our friends, espescially India. This will allow us to see their slider settings so that we know when to get them into a war, and it will show their contacts that may help us in the MA tech trading.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Graph analysis
At turn 40, every team who moved their worker is supposed to have 58 culture. Zoe has 76 here though.
That means either 9 turns of temple, or 6 turns library. Library isn't possible so early.
Between 40 and 50, they gain 52 culture. That means 10 turns temple and 4 turn library.
Ivan would have 60c at turn 41, but they have 86. that looks like 13 turns of temple.
Klarius has 60c at turn 40, 2 more than without any help. So that can only be 1 turn temple.
Zoe built its temple @31 and lib @46
Ivan built a temple @27
Klarius built a temple @39
At turn 50, zoe has had cultural expansion. Cultural expansion should add 16 tiles. However, they gained only 10. So i think the culture from neighbours must be pretty strong. Looking at the borders, i think we may lose the left jungle tile.
At turn 40, every team who moved their worker is supposed to have 58 culture. Zoe has 76 here though.
That means either 9 turns of temple, or 6 turns library. Library isn't possible so early.
Between 40 and 50, they gain 52 culture. That means 10 turns temple and 4 turn library.
Ivan would have 60c at turn 41, but they have 86. that looks like 13 turns of temple.
Klarius has 60c at turn 40, 2 more than without any help. So that can only be 1 turn temple.
Zoe built its temple @31 and lib @46
Ivan built a temple @27
Klarius built a temple @39
At turn 50, zoe has had cultural expansion. Cultural expansion should add 16 tiles. However, they gained only 10. So i think the culture from neighbours must be pretty strong. Looking at the borders, i think we may lose the left jungle tile.
Andronicus
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,672
Culture could be problematic on 2 fronts - both from local AI with nothing to build and from super AI (ie France) who might need to be conquered to prevent cultural victory (Paris has Collossus and pyramids already - in F11 screen at last save it was No 1 city at size 10)
Conquering the encroaching southern cities will hep solve the cultural pressure from there too
edit
Checking the 2550BC save, we would expect to get 10 tiles on cultural expansion assuming we dont take over any tiles already owned by our southern neighbours, so perhaps we are not at risk of losing tiles
Conquering the encroaching southern cities will hep solve the cultural pressure from there too
edit
Checking the 2550BC save, we would expect to get 10 tiles on cultural expansion assuming we dont take over any tiles already owned by our southern neighbours, so perhaps we are not at risk of losing tiles
killercane
Deity
Ok calculation time.
Currency- 640
Lit- 400
Math- 312 currently
Science is 23 with 3 on lux slider.
Library now is 12 science if we add commerce through coast which we can through a harbor (to get 24), or even 13 if we get 27 commerce by working all sea. That is 180/195 in 15 turns. 240/260 in 20 turns. So in 20 turns we get 640 science to even out with Currency at no gpt. But we have to build a library for 3 turns. 2 turns from now if we switch the sword build.
India has 2 freshwater cities I believe, probably they have no corruption in the second city. They can research quite fast. With gpt they will research even faster. They get additional unit support at deity +10 they get from the new rules (they support 38 units= 16 free deity bonus and 4 per city, 2 for Feudalism+10 extra this game). They will get construction quickly I think. It will take the others a long time. We cannot do anything until an AI gets construction so we can trade it. We will probably research lit and have nothing to do but sit around at 0 science.
My idea is to trade mapmaking or poly with math since we have more contacts than them. We can then get the gpt they are not using for science back. We save currency for construction trade and research lit, albeit a bit slow in the beginning. All in all a shaky theory in predicting AI behavior. They also might trade the techs before us.
We also have to set our sights on war, I think we can go to war in the turnset after turn 50. I expect 3-4 spears in a town in Japan after they have been at war for a few turns. Ten swords or even 8 could do it. We need to build 2 workers, at least two dromons, and the 8 more swords= 22 turns, less if we find money to upgrade the regular warrior mps. The sooner to war the better.
Currency- 640
Lit- 400
Math- 312 currently
Science is 23 with 3 on lux slider.
Library now is 12 science if we add commerce through coast which we can through a harbor (to get 24), or even 13 if we get 27 commerce by working all sea. That is 180/195 in 15 turns. 240/260 in 20 turns. So in 20 turns we get 640 science to even out with Currency at no gpt. But we have to build a library for 3 turns. 2 turns from now if we switch the sword build.
India has 2 freshwater cities I believe, probably they have no corruption in the second city. They can research quite fast. With gpt they will research even faster. They get additional unit support at deity +10 they get from the new rules (they support 38 units= 16 free deity bonus and 4 per city, 2 for Feudalism+10 extra this game). They will get construction quickly I think. It will take the others a long time. We cannot do anything until an AI gets construction so we can trade it. We will probably research lit and have nothing to do but sit around at 0 science.
My idea is to trade mapmaking or poly with math since we have more contacts than them. We can then get the gpt they are not using for science back. We save currency for construction trade and research lit, albeit a bit slow in the beginning. All in all a shaky theory in predicting AI behavior. They also might trade the techs before us.
We also have to set our sights on war, I think we can go to war in the turnset after turn 50. I expect 3-4 spears in a town in Japan after they have been at war for a few turns. Ten swords or even 8 could do it. We need to build 2 workers, at least two dromons, and the 8 more swords= 22 turns, less if we find money to upgrade the regular warrior mps. The sooner to war the better.
Andronicus
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,672
I agree with your analysis
This suggests Zoe either got free lit or researched it directly. We are at turn 38 with opportunity to get lit and build lib in ? 3 turns (40s for scientific civ?) ie turn 42.
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