Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Hmm... I thought we weren't going to do that.
Well, they don't have it anymore. They have 13g.
Well, they don't have it anymore. They have 13g.
SGOTM 12 - Spooks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
killercane
Deity
You mean Japan, they have 13 gold. We keep getting them confused. Anyways, what is the plan for the next turns?
-Build swords and another dromon.
-Wait until Tenoch builds a wonder (GL or Zeus)
-Drop troops on the forest that turn.
-Get new wonder.
-Set up some wars along with alliances? Persian island and Maya-Inca island? Any more? We need gold for this.
-Find the other scientifics
-Build a harbor before the age change
Wars will allow Persia and others into golden age, we can profit by selling them techs for gpt going into the age change. We must research CoL now, so no trading for it.
Even if we get Chivalry we can do useful things with it (gift it to a nearby ironless target to build Knights Templar or Indians to use war elephants to rampage through their continent). Invention would help the other AIs consolidate with their favorite unit, the longbow. And of course we want Theology to get on the road to education.
-Build swords and another dromon.
-Wait until Tenoch builds a wonder (GL or Zeus)
-Drop troops on the forest that turn.
-Get new wonder.
-Set up some wars along with alliances? Persian island and Maya-Inca island? Any more? We need gold for this.
-Find the other scientifics
-Build a harbor before the age change
Wars will allow Persia and others into golden age, we can profit by selling them techs for gpt going into the age change. We must research CoL now, so no trading for it.
Even if we get Chivalry we can do useful things with it (gift it to a nearby ironless target to build Knights Templar or Indians to use war elephants to rampage through their continent). Invention would help the other AIs consolidate with their favorite unit, the longbow. And of course we want Theology to get on the road to education.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Lets see:
production
We have a war going on between them.
We need 4 more turns to produce 1 more dromon and 1 more sword.
That is our attack force.
Our worker is gonna need 8 more turns to mine the hill. (It's will ready be usefull the turn it is done) Turn 9, we can have acces to 20spt at a small cost of research as it allows us to have only 2 scientists.
So we should at least build 2 more swords after our initial minimum attack force. After that, we at least have the option to build a library in 2 turns. It may depend on both the millitary situation and the technologic situation at that time how soon we want to build it.
Attacking the Aztecs
After 4 turns of production and a few more turns of moving, we can attack as soon as Tenochtitlan finishes it's wonder. It can't take long before they finish their wonder, but we may need to wait a little for it. Please do wait.
We may have the aztec capital at the end of the comming turnset. During this turnset, there may also be time to heal the units and end the resistance, but we don't yet need to think of the second city.
Trading and Techonology
We just wait for anyone to research construction and buy it for currency and literature.
Until then, everything but currency and literature can be sold to anyone willing to pay, even if it isn't much.
After that, we can keep drawing gold from everyone, but keep open trade options in case anyone gets CoL.
Edit:
Researching CoL is surely an option, but if we do so, be carefull not to spend gold unless it is very much needed. We will need all the gold we can have to trade techs in the middle ages. Making wars with the scientifics (meaning we need to invest in an embassy) can be done after the MA trade. We can sell our own free tech for the gpt.
This will all be after the next turnset though, so just don't spend gold on embassies that we don't really need, and try to get as much gold out of the different AI's as possible.
Politics
Starting some wars between others may be good, but starting wars costs us reputation points. So we should be carefull doing so and only do it when we are sure to benefit from it. Getting GPT from scientific civs sound interesting, but i think we should also be sure that the sceintific civ actually conquers his enemy.
I don't think i see any more issues for the next turnset.
production
We have a war going on between them.
We need 4 more turns to produce 1 more dromon and 1 more sword.
That is our attack force.
Our worker is gonna need 8 more turns to mine the hill. (It's will ready be usefull the turn it is done) Turn 9, we can have acces to 20spt at a small cost of research as it allows us to have only 2 scientists.
So we should at least build 2 more swords after our initial minimum attack force. After that, we at least have the option to build a library in 2 turns. It may depend on both the millitary situation and the technologic situation at that time how soon we want to build it.
Attacking the Aztecs
After 4 turns of production and a few more turns of moving, we can attack as soon as Tenochtitlan finishes it's wonder. It can't take long before they finish their wonder, but we may need to wait a little for it. Please do wait.
We may have the aztec capital at the end of the comming turnset. During this turnset, there may also be time to heal the units and end the resistance, but we don't yet need to think of the second city.
Trading and Techonology
We just wait for anyone to research construction and buy it for currency and literature.
Until then, everything but currency and literature can be sold to anyone willing to pay, even if it isn't much.
After that, we can keep drawing gold from everyone, but keep open trade options in case anyone gets CoL.
Edit:
Researching CoL is surely an option, but if we do so, be carefull not to spend gold unless it is very much needed. We will need all the gold we can have to trade techs in the middle ages. Making wars with the scientifics (meaning we need to invest in an embassy) can be done after the MA trade. We can sell our own free tech for the gpt.
This will all be after the next turnset though, so just don't spend gold on embassies that we don't really need, and try to get as much gold out of the different AI's as possible.
Politics
Starting some wars between others may be good, but starting wars costs us reputation points. So we should be carefull doing so and only do it when we are sure to benefit from it. Getting GPT from scientific civs sound interesting, but i think we should also be sure that the sceintific civ actually conquers his enemy.
I don't think i see any more issues for the next turnset.
Andronicus
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,672
Builds
Yes to swords and dromons - esp swords - better to have too many and pay a bit of upkeep than too few and run out of gas on the attack
? slip in lib (can we do 20spt once iron mined if not already?)
Yes to harbour but cant trade ivory until sure who will build SoZ so no hurry there
Research
Complete lit -> CoL at max (we need to get out of age researching a prerequisite tech). Construction should be around by then for trade.
Economy
Get change where possible for older techs from AIs - still some to meet
I dont know that we will be able to finance too many embassies which are required to foster war until we have captured 1 or 2 towns to reduce unit support.
Yes to swords and dromons - esp swords - better to have too many and pay a bit of upkeep than too few and run out of gas on the attack
? slip in lib (can we do 20spt once iron mined if not already?)
Yes to harbour but cant trade ivory until sure who will build SoZ so no hurry there
Research
Complete lit -> CoL at max (we need to get out of age researching a prerequisite tech). Construction should be around by then for trade.
Economy
Get change where possible for older techs from AIs - still some to meet
I dont know that we will be able to finance too many embassies which are required to foster war until we have captured 1 or 2 towns to reduce unit support.
killercane
Deity
I disagree. We need to be able to give them techs for alliances vs. whoever. Selling Mapmaking and stuff for 10 gold or whatever here and there isnt what we want to do unless we are going broke. And we need to research CoL ourselves since we traded for HBR.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
By the time this consideration comes into play, we should be in the next age. We have our ally against our current target and no useful ones for the next one.
killercane
Deity
Once construction gets known, we can get alliances like crazy. Sure we need $$$ for the age change, but we recoup that by profiting on the AIs in golden age. Take Persia and Babylon. Neither will be able to research much in MA at only 2 towns apiece. The Dutch are conveniently in the middle of them, Immortals and Bowmen will surely grind them down quick. We wont fight in this war, and just let them do their thing (Rotterdam seems to have expanded borders so it wont autoraze). Then put them on Hittites or Egypt. The more quickly they are at war and have consolidated their continent the more quickly they can be useful research partners. This can happen as soon as we get 100 gold for the 2 embassies. If this delays researching CoL for 2 turns (to get money for age change) then that is not so huge.
And the Inca-Maya continent is in our "core," so we need to start that sometime when we can pin down how long it will take to get rid of Japan, not this turnset for sure but sometime prior to 1000 BC.
Having a -1 AI attitude for war declaration isnt too huge, it is the same for refusing tribute which we will surely have to do until all the continents are consolidated into Scientifics.
And the Inca-Maya continent is in our "core," so we need to start that sometime when we can pin down how long it will take to get rid of Japan, not this turnset for sure but sometime prior to 1000 BC.
Having a -1 AI attitude for war declaration isnt too huge, it is the same for refusing tribute which we will surely have to do until all the continents are consolidated into Scientifics.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
-2 dromons should be enough for the comming while. i dont think this turnset needs to build anything but swords and 2 dromons.
-Sure, we must have techs for alliances, but after trading construction, we will have 3 techs again. Soon after, we will have MA techs to bribe with. So we have plenty to sell and still be able to make alliances. Just sell easy to those who are behind a lot, and sell a bit less easy to those who only lack a few.
-The -1 attitude is not a huge thing, but we shouldnt get alliance happy and just start 5 random wars with alliances. We must do so only with those that actually are gonna win their wars. But as said, that is not within this turnset.
-Again, i would like to try and get as much from those AI's as possible, and wait before spending on those embassies. And don't spread Lit just yet. It will be the only thing that we can take to the MA to trade for those MA techs.
-Sure, we must have techs for alliances, but after trading construction, we will have 3 techs again. Soon after, we will have MA techs to bribe with. So we have plenty to sell and still be able to make alliances. Just sell easy to those who are behind a lot, and sell a bit less easy to those who only lack a few.
-The -1 attitude is not a huge thing, but we shouldnt get alliance happy and just start 5 random wars with alliances. We must do so only with those that actually are gonna win their wars. But as said, that is not within this turnset.
-Again, i would like to try and get as much from those AI's as possible, and wait before spending on those embassies. And don't spread Lit just yet. It will be the only thing that we can take to the MA to trade for those MA techs.
Andronicus
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,672
Some trades that are available now
Japan - 4gpt + 13g for philo
Egypt - 27g for philo
Iroquois - 22g for philo
Spain - 15g for philo
China - 12g for HBR
Greece - 9g for philo
I note we can increase science by 2 switching iBG to plains ivory (loses 1fpt which we can sustain for a little while)
Looking at Teno..., there are 2 tiles obscured - 1 appears to be forest. Of those I see it is likely working the horse hill, mBG, forest and 3 mGrass (ivory)
There may be another mBG hidden but that gives 11spt with max poss of 12spt up to 18-19spt during GA which should come soon).
Normal shields req for GLH is 300, SoZ 200, how many for deity AI? I thought it was 60% ie 180 or 120 respectively
Started 1870BC (turn 47) - so 3 turns so far 33-36shields.
This gives earliest poss GLH in 8 turns if get GA next IT, latest 14 turns if dont get GA (unlikely). If some one else builds GLH (Paris has built collosus, pyramids, ToA and is in GA) then SoZ should be built in between 5 to 8 turns or later if in cascade. My best guess is 10-12 turns, but we should be prepared for 8.
edit - I note Japan is building SoZ in Kyoto. In the 1790 embassy screenshot it was building spear at 8spt. I assume it switched to SoZ following turn. If Aztecs get to build GLH then Japs should build SoZ in 15 turns - timing seems just about right.
Japan - 4gpt + 13g for philo
Egypt - 27g for philo
Iroquois - 22g for philo
Spain - 15g for philo
China - 12g for HBR
Greece - 9g for philo
I note we can increase science by 2 switching iBG to plains ivory (loses 1fpt which we can sustain for a little while)
Looking at Teno..., there are 2 tiles obscured - 1 appears to be forest. Of those I see it is likely working the horse hill, mBG, forest and 3 mGrass (ivory)
There may be another mBG hidden but that gives 11spt with max poss of 12spt up to 18-19spt during GA which should come soon).
Normal shields req for GLH is 300, SoZ 200, how many for deity AI? I thought it was 60% ie 180 or 120 respectively
Started 1870BC (turn 47) - so 3 turns so far 33-36shields.
This gives earliest poss GLH in 8 turns if get GA next IT, latest 14 turns if dont get GA (unlikely). If some one else builds GLH (Paris has built collosus, pyramids, ToA and is in GA) then SoZ should be built in between 5 to 8 turns or later if in cascade. My best guess is 10-12 turns, but we should be prepared for 8.
edit - I note Japan is building SoZ in Kyoto. In the 1790 embassy screenshot it was building spear at 8spt. I assume it switched to SoZ following turn. If Aztecs get to build GLH then Japs should build SoZ in 15 turns - timing seems just about right.
Gentlemen, you seem to be incontent with my gameplay. I have the strong perception that we had the following objectives:
1. get MM as soon as possible without paying gpt or currency. I even waited a turn longer than necessary and even till 1750BC no other civ got MM. What would you be waiting for?
The aztecs won't be able to use the gold for other than trading to another civ (fot what?). We'll get it back when we plunder their towns and rape their girls
2. build forces of 8 land untits and 2 dromons that immediately should go to war to keep unit support low.
3. declare war on Aztecs several turns before we want to join it and ally Japan. I admit I should have waited for them to start SoZ before declaring. But for now they even failed to start their GA in two Jag attacks...
We should have saved a reg warrior to trigger their GA...
I figured it won't save us a turn so I rather had no food loss.
I'd like to have a full granary just in case we want to pop rush our lib.
The Iron mine (necessary to get to 20spt) was started in turn 7. So no chance to pop-rush the lib
I'd like to keep Philo & other stuff rather than selling it for little money. Rather start some wars. These will cause some workers to enter their capitals and we will be able to buy them for these techs.
We don't need to declare these wars actively, maybe it's enough to make some selected aggressive civs angry so they start demanding.
We should figure right now, who are the good, the bad and the ugly guys.
And we should start right now making the bad and the ugly angry by demanding gold immediately.
Just a first draft neglecting the distribution.
Our friends should be:
All SCI: Babylon, Germany, Greeks, Korea, Ottoman, Perisa, Russia, Sumeria.
Also: India, France.
Our natural (aggressive) opponents:
Rome, Maya, Egypt, Arabs, English, Hittites, Celts, Mongols, Portugese, Spain, Vikings, Zulus.
Do we need any special friends due to their preference for special research paths?
If we are indifferent about a civ, treat it as a friend, it's easy to annoy them later
We don't need to declare these wars actively, maybe it's enough to make some selected aggressive civs angry so they start demanding.
We should figure right now, who are the good, the bad and the ugly guys.
And we should start right now making the bad and the ugly angry by demanding gold immediately.Just a first draft neglecting the distribution.
Our friends should be:
All SCI: Babylon, Germany, Greeks, Korea, Ottoman, Perisa, Russia, Sumeria.
Also: India, France.
Our natural (aggressive) opponents:
Rome, Maya, Egypt, Arabs, English, Hittites, Celts, Mongols, Portugese, Spain, Vikings, Zulus.
Do we need any special friends due to their preference for special research paths?
If we are indifferent about a civ, treat it as a friend, it's easy to annoy them later
WackenOpenAir
Deity
"Gentlemen, you seem to be incontent with my gameplay"
It ain't that bad
Not saying you did anything wrong, saying that i have my doubts and think it may have been better to wait and get it virtually for free in 1 or 2 more turns. Doesn't really matter a lot.
Please guys, talking about "starting some wars" like that scares me.
Once more, we should be carefull where we start wars and only do so when we have reason to assume that one AI is actually really going to conquer another. If we are able to gather a few 100 gold and use it in the MA tech trading, we will get our gold back in that trading. Then, we can use it to buy all the embassies we like. That won't be too long from now, and as we first do the MA tech trading thing, we will have plenty techs for them.
Rather than talking about "starting some wars" make specific suggestions about where to start one with what allies. I will today have a look at the map and among others the suggested place with Persia and Babylon.
So again, i strongly suggest selling techs for anything 10+ gold. Just make exceptions for the following:
-No currency and Literature until we have construction
-Don't sell Literature any more than needed to get construction (we could use it for the MA tech trade)
-Don't sell the last tech we have on a civ for too little. While writing and HBR can easillly be sold for 1 single piece of gold, i wouldn't sell poly or currence (after trading construction) being the last tech to trade to a civ for less than 30, or even more if its a scientific civ. Lots of gold can be made i think from selling math, MM and philo.
It ain't that bad
Not saying you did anything wrong, saying that i have my doubts and think it may have been better to wait and get it virtually for free in 1 or 2 more turns. Doesn't really matter a lot.
Please guys, talking about "starting some wars" like that scares me.
Once more, we should be carefull where we start wars and only do so when we have reason to assume that one AI is actually really going to conquer another. If we are able to gather a few 100 gold and use it in the MA tech trading, we will get our gold back in that trading. Then, we can use it to buy all the embassies we like. That won't be too long from now, and as we first do the MA tech trading thing, we will have plenty techs for them.
Rather than talking about "starting some wars" make specific suggestions about where to start one with what allies. I will today have a look at the map and among others the suggested place with Persia and Babylon.
So again, i strongly suggest selling techs for anything 10+ gold. Just make exceptions for the following:
-No currency and Literature until we have construction
-Don't sell Literature any more than needed to get construction (we could use it for the MA tech trade)
-Don't sell the last tech we have on a civ for too little. While writing and HBR can easillly be sold for 1 single piece of gold, i wouldn't sell poly or currence (after trading construction) being the last tech to trade to a civ for less than 30, or even more if its a scientific civ. Lots of gold can be made i think from selling math, MM and philo.
I don't talk about "starting" wars but about using "calculated risk" to get declared. That would not hurt our reputation but imo have the following advantages:
1. war happiness.
2. controlled warfare between aggressive civs.
3. available (urgently needed) slaves.
4. start GAs to fuel research and wonder building.
5. strong AT SCI-civs (Babs, Greece, Persia, Sumeria) might get more town thus research capacity.
disadvantages
1. outdated units are killed encouraging production of newer.
2. balance might get lost and we might face civs with 4+ towns (not our SCI-friends)
1. war happiness.
2. controlled warfare between aggressive civs.
3. available (urgently needed) slaves.
4. start GAs to fuel research and wonder building.
5. strong AT SCI-civs (Babs, Greece, Persia, Sumeria) might get more town thus research capacity.
disadvantages
1. outdated units are killed encouraging production of newer.
2. balance might get lost and we might face civs with 4+ towns (not our SCI-friends)
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Making demands from an AI to get them to declare is a permanent attitude damage for that AI. So we can only do it with AI's that are gonna be destroyed.
You are right. Now I feel bad for donating gold before selling a tech
Bad habit.
Okay, I agree to ignite wars only in preparation of an invasion.
What we need to rule now (because demands can always happen):
Which civs and which demands do we concede and how do we react if a civ declares on us?
While not actively forcing declarations I would still define some targets we would risk to be at war, especially if we can ally those strong AT SCI-civs to get them some kind of predominance on their island.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
When demands are made from us:
If they are scientific, we should give in unless the tech is very important to us.
If they are far away, not in our future conquest plans and we don't know any neighbours to ally against them, we should give in to them unless the tech is important to us.
If a civ declares on us, we see if we want to make any friends nearby and may kill him. Or we just ignore them a bit.
Whom we make war with:
The netherlands is the only oportunity is see for now. It costs 104 gold for the embasies in Persia and Babylon. I prefer waiting till after the MA trade.
After the MA trade, the whole world will start researching invention and then gunpowder. eanwhile, we will have the top part to research.
After the MA trade, we should make sure everyone in the world has literacy so they can get libs and research faster.
Are we going for Free artisry and shakespears?
It costs us 3 optional techs to research.
We are rewarded with a size 21 capital.
The cost may not be a full 3 techs, as the time we take to research that, would give the AI time to research both Invention and Gunpowder for us.
I will be making some calculations on this subject before it becomes really important.
If they are scientific, we should give in unless the tech is very important to us.
If they are far away, not in our future conquest plans and we don't know any neighbours to ally against them, we should give in to them unless the tech is important to us.
If a civ declares on us, we see if we want to make any friends nearby and may kill him. Or we just ignore them a bit.
Whom we make war with:
The netherlands is the only oportunity is see for now. It costs 104 gold for the embasies in Persia and Babylon. I prefer waiting till after the MA trade.
After the MA trade, the whole world will start researching invention and then gunpowder. eanwhile, we will have the top part to research.
After the MA trade, we should make sure everyone in the world has literacy so they can get libs and research faster.
Are we going for Free artisry and shakespears?
It costs us 3 optional techs to research.
We are rewarded with a size 21 capital.
The cost may not be a full 3 techs, as the time we take to research that, would give the AI time to research both Invention and Gunpowder for us.
I will be making some calculations on this subject before it becomes really important.
The Dutch are too nice, they won't ask for gifts... 
I expect demands rather from the most aggressive AI, Mongols, Zulus, Vikings, Celts (once met) and Rome or Hittites. I'd really like to get dowed by one of them to get the war happiness. No matter if we can ally someone against them (that would be a nice add-on).
One at a time would be enough (war happinesss does not cumulate iirc), casual landings on our home island might cause some trouble...
Wouldn't that be funny if we get conquered by an AI?
I also thought about Shakespeares. If the AI keeps researching so disappointing slowly this is definetely an option.
However I hope they get it going once the SCI Civs have literature...
If the AI is still researching Gunpowder while we already got Astronomy and Banking, we should consider to start on Printing Press. When we need to get those IA first tier techs, Democracy might be something to offer. We will know how the Ai values government techs this game when Republic and Monarchy are available.
But Sanitation is just one cheap optional tech to research in IA and the hospital (160g) is quite less expensive than the wonder (450g)...
And hospitals are usable for other cities, too - we will want them anyway.
Of course the 8 content people feature of ST is also huge...
Maybe we let Paris build it the turn before we conquer it and plant our FP there
I expect demands rather from the most aggressive AI, Mongols, Zulus, Vikings, Celts (once met) and Rome or Hittites. I'd really like to get dowed by one of them to get the war happiness. No matter if we can ally someone against them (that would be a nice add-on).
One at a time would be enough (war happinesss does not cumulate iirc), casual landings on our home island might cause some trouble...
Wouldn't that be funny if we get conquered by an AI?
I also thought about Shakespeares. If the AI keeps researching so disappointing slowly this is definetely an option.
However I hope they get it going once the SCI Civs have literature...
If the AI is still researching Gunpowder
while we already got Astronomy and Banking, we should consider to start on Printing Press. When we need to get those IA first tier techs, Democracy might be something to offer. We will know how the Ai values government techs this game when Republic and Monarchy are available.But Sanitation is just one cheap optional tech to research in IA and the hospital (160g) is quite less expensive than the wonder (450g)...
And hospitals are usable for other cities, too - we will want them anyway.
Of course the 8 content people feature of ST is also huge...
Maybe we let Paris build it the turn before we conquer it and plant our FP there
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Ye, i don't think it is gonna be a good plan to build that wonder, but at least i should give it consideration and thus will calculate.
I don't think the AI "gets started" in my experience, the speed at which the AI researches only goes down troughout the game.
I don't think the AI "gets started" in my experience, the speed at which the AI researches only goes down troughout the game.
Okay, let's do not lose view of our short term goals 
beachhead
Should we land, fortify and fight some small battles? With Teno building a wonder, it would be enough to hinder troops to come back into Teno.
We might be able to pick off some units risking to wound our units - or promote them.Wounded units migth be carried to our capital to heal - which takes 3 turns till they can fight again.
stay on board
Safer of course it would be to keep the first wave aboard and the second in our Capital to minimize happiness problems. The landing is on the turn after the GLH (or SoZ) is finished.
Remember the first wave has the spear.
It would be nice to collect some money for trades at the dawn of the Middle Ages.
Okay, nice plan. Two more swords could be compensated with the disband of two curraghs if we run out of money.
wait where?
beachhead
Should we land, fortify and fight some small battles? With Teno building a wonder, it would be enough to hinder troops to come back into Teno.
We might be able to pick off some units risking to wound our units - or promote them.Wounded units migth be carried to our capital to heal - which takes 3 turns till they can fight again.
stay on board
Safer of course it would be to keep the first wave aboard and the second in our Capital to minimize happiness problems. The landing is on the turn after the GLH (or SoZ) is finished.
Remember the first wave has the spear.
I'm not sure if we should quell the resistance before we got both towns. A flip would really hurt us.
Not sure if we should research CoL. Some AI (India, Ottomans) might be about to research it. Maybe we rather make money?
It would be nice to collect some money for trades at the dawn of the Middle Ages.
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