SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[Abegweit]

If we could get Paris on wonder duty again...

Could we get Theology to them (maybe in exchange for gunpowder) without being bound to a 20 turn peace?

Only way would be via a third party, which currently would have to be the Ottomans. Guns for Theo + Monarchy would be a likely trade. Unfortunately, she only knows the Celts, Vikes and Yanks. Poss through the Americans if they research something stupid.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Stopping worker production in Const is the very last option that comes to my mind.

A) We set up a ship chain to France, heal the units at location and capture Paris a bit later. We would have to make peace with Egypt and send the units from there as well as maybe something else produced wherever we can. (And when do we get the next AC?)

Paris would be ours in like 10 turns or so. Our core will be ready to start producing units by that time as well. We would still need to conquer 3 more cities. Our ship chain could be used to bring more troops to France to also take scandinavia. If scandi have been fighting them all this time, they may be soft enough to take them on. It would take at least another 10 turns though before we have them down, most likely more like 15 or so.

-Paris in 10 turns.
-3x Vikings in 25 turns.
-Paris FP 25 turns.

B We sail back the survivors from Paris. Mission failed, too bad. We make peace with France as soon as scandinavia does and trade Gunpowder from them.

While our units sail back, we take egypt with our AC's. 10 turns from now, the French units could be near India, we join them up with egypt survivors and rougly 15 turns from now, we have both egypt and India.

France has no salt and thus should not be tougher than it was already. We now have our totally productive core to set up a new and stronger mission. With our size 12 cities, it should not take long to gather a 20 unit force to take both France and Scandinavia.

-Egypt: <10 turns. (should be possible right ?)
-India capital: 10-15 turns.
-India 2: 15-20 turns.
-Paris including FP: 30 turns.
-Vikings: soon after.

 

[Abegweit]

Stopping worker production in Const is the very last option that comes to my mind.

OK. How many do you want? It'll take 3 for Const, 6 for Teo and about 8 for each of the other three cities or 33 total. We currently have 13 local workers and 12 slaves. Best case, 8 more turns and I'm not really in favour of folding in all the workers.

We set up a ship chain to France, heal the units at location and capture Paris a bit later. We would have to make peace with Egypt and send the units from there as well as maybe something else produced wherever we can. (And when do we get the next AC?)

AC due next turn. I assume that is the fifth unit Paul was talking about. We also have a a vet warrior in Teno and another one due soon but little capacity for upgrades. BTW, the scientist there should be fired. Border expansion due next turn

 

[WackenOpenAir]

So the T4 an T9 are correct now for the AC's ?

 

[Abegweit]

I think so. Killer mentions one on T9.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I don't think we need to bring all that many workers to the area's we are gonna capture. Egypt seems to be very well developed. India has loads of irrigation, so we could simply build workers there at location and quickly grow back the city.
Paris probably doesn't need a lot of help either.

So i think we can join some of the slaves.

kyoto should build that library very quickly. After it has had culture growth, it will get acces to extra food alowing it to grow every 5 turns. I would like to plant and cut forests here for the library. Unfortunately, most of our workers are stacked on the other side of the island. If we could do 1 plant and cut within 9 turns, the lib would be done in 9 and have its culture expand in 14. If we then irrigate an extra tile, we could grow from 4 to 7 in 12 turns and then join 5 workers. During these 12 turns, it would be working irrigated tiles and fish, so theres pretty much no production. This would make it 26 turns for it to be ready.

We could also simply join in 8 workers when the culture has expanded in 13 turns and have it ready then. At the cost of 3 workers, we could have this city ready and productive 12 turns faster. This is worth about 100 shields and just as many beakers. The cost of producing a worker in the capital = 20 shields and 20 beakers. So producing 2 extra workers for this is worthy.


Teno: the aqua could hopefully be done in about 15 turns with forest cuts while using only 2 food tiles. The city can be size 5 in 19 turns from now. Joining an extra worker 4 turns earlier will allow us to fill it at size 15 when the aqua is done. This will give us the city 4 turns earlier. This is worth slightly more than the cost of a worker, but allowing the workers to work 4 extra turns also has value. I think we should use the 19 turns option and join 7 workers

Teoti could als get some help from an extra forest cut or 2. Another option would be to make this a 2 turn worker factory after the capital goes back to size 12. using a cow from the capital. so we need 0 or 5 workers here.

Osaka is a problem.....

I'll think more and go into greater detail tomorrow. Gotta go now.
This is not gonna be as easy as i had thought.

 

[Paul#42]

homeland
I made up my mind about joining slaves.
Const should stay on worker duty for another 4-5 turns. Military builds won't solve the French situation

To get population into our towns is more urgent and native workers work harder. We will get plenty of slaves offered once we established footholds in Egypt and Indian continents. So I'd even join slaves first unless we are about to pay unit support.

Most of the workers in Teo are ment to improve Kyoto area. It was simply way quicker to ferry them to Teo (4 workers per turn) then to anywhere else.
They should first clear at least one jungle at Osaka and then head on to Kyoto.
The next workers from Const will be brought to Kyoto area directly.

Paris
Would it make sense to wait another turn till the galleys moved out and then attack again, with dromons' support? I doubt that. We'd face 3 spears or 2 spears and a LB with the same forces.
Right now I think to get back on dromons.
It obviously was a mistake to draw three dromons to Viking Iron, too.

Abegweit, did your attack calculation take the capital factor into account? If not, could you recalc?

If we gave the Vikings Theo and Monarchy, wouldn't they make peace with Joan and give at least one wonder-tech for gunpowder? I think that might be worth a try. If our forces leave immediately, wonder addicted Joan won't be able to resist...

So here's my plan:
turn 0
a) draw back units from Paris.
b) MM to get Theo next turn
turn 1
c) trade it for monarchy.
d) trade both to Vikings

edit: however if the Vikings got two sources of salt or French colonize a remote source we are dust...
I cannot believe Gyathaar being so mean to Joan (and kindly to us) to put salt that far out of reach. That does not fit the pattern.
And we'll keep flying blind till we get gunpowder ourself...
I guess that's part of his evil plan to create some drama at the gates of Paris...

Thebes
We would certainly need mor units in Egypt to solve the situation there. If we can't reinforce we'd better leave it.
Leave Egypt for now or get Thebes in a quick attempt (~5 turns)?

I saw Dutch are at peace with Babs and Persia again - should we relight that war on occasion?

 

[Abegweit]

There is no capital factor. It would be irrelevant anyway because two boats with god knows how many troops just entered the city.

As for there rest, I suggest we wait a bit.

 

[Paul#42]

There is no capital factor. It would be irrelevant anyway because two boats with god knows how many troops just entered the city.

As for there rest, I suggest we wait a bit.

Are you sure that there is no capital factor?!? I don't know where I got this from but my whole gameplay in Civ is based on the thought "take capital last so you don't have to take it twice..."

The units on board did not attack so I think they are frozen there and will leave again as soon as the galley is rested. So if the Vikings manage to kill a spear and the galleys leave again, the odds might be good, especially if we do some dromon shelling...

Wait where? How long? For what?

What do you think about the Monarchy + Theo to Vikings idea?

What about Egypt?

How many workers to build in Const?

 

[Abegweit]

Are you sure that there is no capital factor?!?

Yes.

What do you think about the Monarchy + Theo to Vikings idea?

I see no reason to give up a valuable monopoly to two civs in the hopes that they might give it to a third. Just keep her at war. It's the same effect anyway.

What about Egypt?

Memphis is a high flip risk and the troops it would require to defend it are needed in Paris. Possibly we should gift it? In any case we have no near-term prospect of taking Thebes.

How many workers to build in Const?

I like switching to 2-turners out of Teo fairly soon.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Could we first set our mind on Paris. Reenforce now, or retry later ? (the possible plans i posted before)


Then, lets look at the micromanagement and see how many workers we want. I think we want more than 2. 4-5 and joining some slaves as well sounds good to me.
2 turn workers from Teoti sure could feel like a relieve from using our capital for this. However, it would still not have an aqua for ages to come and thus be unable to grow for ages to come. We also need to see what it costs our capital to stop using the cow.


We could also get gunpowder from Persia maybe. And there is no hurry in getting it for our tech process. If we have it by the time Education is reasearched, we are happy.



I hope you can try to make a plant and cut for Kyoto's lib.

 

[Paul#42]

Could we first set our mind on Paris. Reenforce now, or retry later ? (the possible plans i posted before)

reinforcements for Paris
we now have at home / in Egypt: 2 AC, 2 MDI, 2 dromons.
we can mobilize quickly: 1 MDI (90g), 1 dromon(45g), 1 AC should be due soon.
If three dromons start we would have to build another soon to ship workers.
edit: withdrawing units from Egypt would force us to gift Memphis to another civ. At least we would gain 4 slaves out of this act of frustration...

So that's two / three dromons that can start almost immediately, arriving in ~6 resp. 7 turns (~turn #100 or #101) with a ship chain. All Paris "veterans" have to go to Orleans (with rop) or on neutral land (without rop).
The ship chain for three dromon loads spares a total 2 turns per dromon plus 2 tiles (=4-6 movement points) if the dromons are on adjacent tiles at the relay.

That long ship chain would enforce us to do the second approach by land again as our ship capacity will be insufficient. Again we would have devided forces or our "Paris veterans" would have a longer march to the landing spot.
landing them near Orleans would slow things down. for units to come from Egypt (the south way).

So if my calculations are correct we would have a total 7+6 (or 4) units for the second attack ready in turn #103 (#102), 9 (8) turns from now.

Is that sufficient?
What do we do if Vikings and French sign peace?

I hope you can try to make a plant and cut for Kyoto's lib.

That should be possible.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

we still have techs on the vikings iirc. So we can buy them to war again if needed.

7+6 sounds reasonable but depending on what the Scandinvians do, it may still not be a guaranteed win. (if they rebuid spears and scandy does kind of nothing)

Are you sure about the chipchain, did you make detailed plans ?

 

[Abegweit]

Could we first set our mind on Paris. Reenforce now, or retry later ? (the possible plans i posted before)

I misunderstood you. Sorry. I thought there was one plan with success/fail options. OK.

A) We re-enforce. That gives us 12-13 troops at the front. If we are lucky, the dromons can help. Bombard. If the unit which takes damage is not a galley then fire away! We have discovered that pinging galleys is not always a good idea. I think that there are pretty good odds that we can get the dromons into battle, in which case this is almost a certainty. There are decent odds even so. OTOH, if we fail, we are in really bad shape.

In the meantime, what do we do what to do about Egypt if we take this line. We would have no troops. Even if we go to peace, there is a danger of a flip.

B) Withdraw.

Advantages:
1. Paris is not urgent. Had we known that the French didn't have salt. we would never have done this.
2. It reduces the pressure to switch the capital back to military.
3. It would resolve the Egypt issue, although I think that you are somewhat optimistic about the time it would take to get home. It's more like 10-11 since stuff is out of position.
4. It would allow us to expand a bit faster.
5. We can take home our French slaves. Let's get something out of the adventure
6. We should be able to get guns from France. Poss for Theo and Mono.

Disadvantages:
Swallowing our pride?

2 turn workers from Teoti sure could feel like a relieve from using our capital for this. However, it would still not have an aqua for ages to come and thus be unable to grow for ages to come. We also need to see what it costs our capital to stop using the cow.

Working two cows, the iron, the mined BG, four ivory, the irrigated BG and the lake, the capital makes 20 spt and 3 fpt at size ten. In short it costs growth. When fully forested, Teo will take 13 turns for its duct. As it currently stands, the duct is due in 16. I don't see any huge problem with switching. It's ages either way.

 

[Abegweit]

we can mobilize quickly: 1 MDI (90g), 1 dromon(45g), 1 AC should be due soon.

At 0 science, it will take 4 turns to come up with the money. If we take the deal with Ragnar, it's 2 turns. Not bad. I'm for the deal either way.

 

[Abegweit]

7+6 sounds reasonable but depending on what the Scandinvians do, it may still not be a guaranteed win. (if they rebuid spears and scandy does kind of nothing)

We can expect the same force at home next time as this. As Paul noted earlier, if she has nothing else to do then she'll just burn the shields on Lbows. It doesn't really make much difference what Raghead does. The more serious issue is what to do if Orleans flips?

 

[Paul#42]

We can expect the same force at home next time as this. As Paul noted earlier, if she has nothing else to do then she'll just burn the shields on Lbows. It doesn't really make much difference what Raghead does. The more serious issue is what to do if Orleans flips?

I bet she will be building spears till she feels save and then LBs till she got Orleans back or peace with Ragnar...
The flip would be no problem if we sign rop with Ragnar and stay right next to Orleans which I would prefer right now.
I don't really feel like attacking Vikings after this adventure...

 

[Abegweit]

I bet she will be building spears till she feels save and then LBs till she got Orleans back or peace with Ragnar...

Agreed. So then we give her wonders to work on. Or, better, get Ragnar back on The One True Path.

The flip would be no problem if we sign rop with Ragnar and stay right next to Orleans which I would prefer right now.

Each flip would, on average, cost us one troop.

I don't really feel like attacking Vikings after this adventure...

Me neither. Which is another reason to withdraw.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

The disadvantages of withdrawing:
-It will take longer before we have Paris complete with FP.
-During that time, Orleans will likely flip.
-France may get the opportunity to trade salts


We should try and avoid spreading gunpowder. If others have no gunpowder, i guess they can't sell salts to France.

I don't really know whats best here. I guess i'll just see what you guys choose to do.

 

[Abegweit]

The disadvantages of withdrawing:
-It will take longer before we have Paris complete with FP.
-During that time, Orleans will likely flip.
-France may get the opportunity to trade salts

1. I'm not sure about this. We still need to get to ten towns. All we really want before our return to France is Thebes.
2. True. Maybe not everyone should head home? Leave perhaps four behind?
3. This would be hugely unlucky. She only knows three civs, none of whom even know Feud. It will also be a long long time (20 turns?) before anyone has guns at all. Then they would have to hook up two salts and trade to her. In that regard, no ships should be allowed to leave harbour.

I don't really know whats best here. I guess i'll just see what you guys choose to do.

Jeez, dood. It ain't over until the fat lady sings. And if there ever was a time we needed our leader, this is it.