WackenOpenAir
Deity
Ok, i would like to start discussing the long term.
To keep things organised, please lets keep discussions only on the long term issues until those are resolved.
Paris is better than i though, i didn't know the tourism bonus gets added to commerce for science.
Finishing MA
Before we get to IA, we need 13563 beakers. We currenly make 320 bpt.
With some universities finishing and paris growing, this will increase.
We will need about 35 turns with an average of 400 bpt to finish the middle ages.
At this point, we have the ability to build railroads.
Possibly we will also have Sanitation(3600), most likely we will have to research it.
This would take another 7 turns or so for a total of 42 turns.
railroads
I don't think we will be needing a whole lot of production in the future.
We can however increase our commerce in the core by making loads of food with irrigated and railroaded grasslands and supporting scientists on top of the 21 productive citizens.
Also, in our science farms, every irrigated and railroaded grassland can support a scientist. Irrigating and railroading costs 10 turns.
During those 10 turns, we pay 3 gpt in upkeep, the scientist that is made now will pay back 3bpt for ever. So workers to irrigate and railroad grasslands are well worth their upkeep.
This means, we want even bigger loads of workers !
We should irrigate the core towns last because there we ruin production by irrigating. In the farms we lose nothing by irrigating. And of course, a scientist is no better in a core town than it is in a farm.
This, i think in our core we should start only by making a line of railroad to use for defence first, then irrigate and railroad the farms we will have, then finish the core.
Golden age
We are busy delaying our golden age until we have 20+ citizens. This would require us to build our next wonder not earlier than some 45 turns from now. A little later even for maximum benefit.
The golden age could also propel our current research though. This could get us to hospitals some 10 turns sooner.
This by itself would be almost as valuable as the later GA providing commerce for more citizens if we can gather the workers 1 turns earlier.
With the added benefit of the earlier science wonders in a very powerfull Paris (each wonder will be worth 50 bpt or so), an earlier GA is actually preferable.
It will make life more difficult for us though. We will now have a shorter time to gather the needed workers while Paris is building a wonder and thus not producing workers every 2 turns at size 12.
In this shorter time, we can also conquer fewer cities, and thus have more difficulty paying support for the workers. Certainly since if Paris was not producing workers, it would probably produce units between those workers to conquer some more.
This is a difficult decision. I am not sure yet about the GA.
conquest
To pay as little upkeep for all these workers as possible, we need more towns. until the point of worker joining, our unit number will be rising strongly. We should try to have and keep some cities below size 6.
We are producing infrastructure and not a whole lot of units. We have plenty of infrastructure to build, so i think we won't be building a real lot of units in the future either.
Therefore, unit count is the limiting factor in our conquest. Not so much travel time or healing time. We should use the few units we have as good as we can.
We should not be afraid to sail some distance to their targets.
Portugal could make a good science farm. It will however hurt our second core. Water can hopefully be brough to spain from portugal.
persepolis could be an addition to our core, but if we don't eliminate the scientific Persians, we will always have a flip risk.
Greece and Russia also have very good farms for us, capable of holding many scientists. Both are also scientific though.
Other than that, there is very little of interest for us. Towns without fresh water won't support scientists.
We may be able to bring water to Spain though, and we may be able to play with water on the persian continent a little.
I don't think the persian continent is gonna be very productive for us though.
So we have 2 areas to take: Spain/Portugal and The southern continent.
We could take out some of the scientific civs after getting their IA tech maybe.
If we are to take whole big southern continent except Carthage someday, that would provide a whole bunch of good science farms and this may be worth more than having those 2 still around for Modern Age.
But we don't want to do this before we got into the Industrial age.
Arabia is on the bottom of the corruption rank list.
Conquering these will not hurt our corruption in any of our other towns.
Arabia is not visible, but judging their Greek neighbours, Arabia may very well provide us good science farms.
I think we should choose between two orders of conquest:
-Vikings - Arabia - Iroquis - Greeks after IA trade - Then Portugal and Spain.
-Vikings - Portugal - spain - southern island after IA trade.
The first would be better for corruption in our scandinavian towns and somewhat better for the corruption in our French towns.
The second is a little more conveniently placed to conquer.
The next worker join
Population in our strong core cities is the most important thing for our research.
We should get them to size 21 as soon as possible.
Hospitals are costly things. We should make prebuilds to finish these in 42 turns in all our core cities.
Constantinopel, Teotihuacan, Osaka, Tenochtitlan, Kyoto, Thebes and Delhi should certainly be grown. Thats 7 cities.
Bombay, Orleans, Bergen and Trontheim should also really be considered. Thats 4 more cities.
Even Chichen Itza and Persepolis may be captured by then and ready to be grown. And another 2 cities.
If we want to join 8 workers in each city, we will need between 56 and 104 workers.
Obviously, we can't support the upkeep for that many workers. We should however try and get as many as possible at that point.
If we can have 40-50 workers then, we can join those in the best cities already and have the capital produce more workers to be joined in the other cities.
Constantinopel can produce workers in 1 turn. It can start doing this whenever we like. The cost is 30 beakers per worker.
Orleans can produce workers every 2 turns. If we start doing this in 13 turns, it can alternate warriors and workers per turn. The cost is 30 beakers per worker.
Paris can build workers every 2 turns while being size 12. It can do this whenever it is not building wonders and the like. The workers cost no research.
We should soon start producing these workers wherever we can. When our hospitals are ready, we keep producing workers. We don't join them all, we join part of the workers in the towns, starting with the best towns first.
We keep another part of the workers to irrigate and railroad. We keep producing new workers, and we can find a balance between producing and joining them that fits our support bill.
Before we can start joining workers in 42 turns, i expect we will conquer 8-10 more cities. We should try and keep most of them small for a while. Lets say we can expect 40 extra unit support for a total of about 70.
At the moment, we have 24 units and 14 boats. I think we should try and stay around 40 military units. Maybe up to 50.
If we would build 50 workers before the join, we'd have to pay support for 20-30 of them at its worst. I think that may be just bearable.
If we are to have a golden age and join in 32 turns, we will have 2 fewer cities for unit support.
While building up these worker stacks, they can work extra tiles for our core that is about to grow and in the last 7 turns before the join, they can make some railroad in our core.
To keep things organised, please lets keep discussions only on the long term issues until those are resolved.
Paris is better than i though, i didn't know the tourism bonus gets added to commerce for science.
Finishing MA
Before we get to IA, we need 13563 beakers. We currenly make 320 bpt.
With some universities finishing and paris growing, this will increase.
We will need about 35 turns with an average of 400 bpt to finish the middle ages.
At this point, we have the ability to build railroads.
Possibly we will also have Sanitation(3600), most likely we will have to research it.
This would take another 7 turns or so for a total of 42 turns.
railroads
I don't think we will be needing a whole lot of production in the future.
We can however increase our commerce in the core by making loads of food with irrigated and railroaded grasslands and supporting scientists on top of the 21 productive citizens.
Also, in our science farms, every irrigated and railroaded grassland can support a scientist. Irrigating and railroading costs 10 turns.
During those 10 turns, we pay 3 gpt in upkeep, the scientist that is made now will pay back 3bpt for ever. So workers to irrigate and railroad grasslands are well worth their upkeep.
This means, we want even bigger loads of workers !
We should irrigate the core towns last because there we ruin production by irrigating. In the farms we lose nothing by irrigating. And of course, a scientist is no better in a core town than it is in a farm.
This, i think in our core we should start only by making a line of railroad to use for defence first, then irrigate and railroad the farms we will have, then finish the core.
Golden age
We are busy delaying our golden age until we have 20+ citizens. This would require us to build our next wonder not earlier than some 45 turns from now. A little later even for maximum benefit.
The golden age could also propel our current research though. This could get us to hospitals some 10 turns sooner.
This by itself would be almost as valuable as the later GA providing commerce for more citizens if we can gather the workers 1 turns earlier.
With the added benefit of the earlier science wonders in a very powerfull Paris (each wonder will be worth 50 bpt or so), an earlier GA is actually preferable.
It will make life more difficult for us though. We will now have a shorter time to gather the needed workers while Paris is building a wonder and thus not producing workers every 2 turns at size 12.
In this shorter time, we can also conquer fewer cities, and thus have more difficulty paying support for the workers. Certainly since if Paris was not producing workers, it would probably produce units between those workers to conquer some more.
This is a difficult decision. I am not sure yet about the GA.
conquest
To pay as little upkeep for all these workers as possible, we need more towns. until the point of worker joining, our unit number will be rising strongly. We should try to have and keep some cities below size 6.
We are producing infrastructure and not a whole lot of units. We have plenty of infrastructure to build, so i think we won't be building a real lot of units in the future either.
Therefore, unit count is the limiting factor in our conquest. Not so much travel time or healing time. We should use the few units we have as good as we can.
We should not be afraid to sail some distance to their targets.
Portugal could make a good science farm. It will however hurt our second core. Water can hopefully be brough to spain from portugal.
persepolis could be an addition to our core, but if we don't eliminate the scientific Persians, we will always have a flip risk.
Greece and Russia also have very good farms for us, capable of holding many scientists. Both are also scientific though.
Other than that, there is very little of interest for us. Towns without fresh water won't support scientists.
We may be able to bring water to Spain though, and we may be able to play with water on the persian continent a little.
I don't think the persian continent is gonna be very productive for us though.
So we have 2 areas to take: Spain/Portugal and The southern continent.
We could take out some of the scientific civs after getting their IA tech maybe.
If we are to take whole big southern continent except Carthage someday, that would provide a whole bunch of good science farms and this may be worth more than having those 2 still around for Modern Age.
But we don't want to do this before we got into the Industrial age.
Arabia is on the bottom of the corruption rank list.
Conquering these will not hurt our corruption in any of our other towns.
Arabia is not visible, but judging their Greek neighbours, Arabia may very well provide us good science farms.
I think we should choose between two orders of conquest:
-Vikings - Arabia - Iroquis - Greeks after IA trade - Then Portugal and Spain.
-Vikings - Portugal - spain - southern island after IA trade.
The first would be better for corruption in our scandinavian towns and somewhat better for the corruption in our French towns.
The second is a little more conveniently placed to conquer.
The next worker join
Population in our strong core cities is the most important thing for our research.
We should get them to size 21 as soon as possible.
Hospitals are costly things. We should make prebuilds to finish these in 42 turns in all our core cities.
Constantinopel, Teotihuacan, Osaka, Tenochtitlan, Kyoto, Thebes and Delhi should certainly be grown. Thats 7 cities.
Bombay, Orleans, Bergen and Trontheim should also really be considered. Thats 4 more cities.
Even Chichen Itza and Persepolis may be captured by then and ready to be grown. And another 2 cities.
If we want to join 8 workers in each city, we will need between 56 and 104 workers.
Obviously, we can't support the upkeep for that many workers. We should however try and get as many as possible at that point.
If we can have 40-50 workers then, we can join those in the best cities already and have the capital produce more workers to be joined in the other cities.
Constantinopel can produce workers in 1 turn. It can start doing this whenever we like. The cost is 30 beakers per worker.
Orleans can produce workers every 2 turns. If we start doing this in 13 turns, it can alternate warriors and workers per turn. The cost is 30 beakers per worker.
Paris can build workers every 2 turns while being size 12. It can do this whenever it is not building wonders and the like. The workers cost no research.
We should soon start producing these workers wherever we can. When our hospitals are ready, we keep producing workers. We don't join them all, we join part of the workers in the towns, starting with the best towns first.
We keep another part of the workers to irrigate and railroad. We keep producing new workers, and we can find a balance between producing and joining them that fits our support bill.
Before we can start joining workers in 42 turns, i expect we will conquer 8-10 more cities. We should try and keep most of them small for a while. Lets say we can expect 40 extra unit support for a total of about 70.
At the moment, we have 24 units and 14 boats. I think we should try and stay around 40 military units. Maybe up to 50.
If we would build 50 workers before the join, we'd have to pay support for 20-30 of them at its worst. I think that may be just bearable.
If we are to have a golden age and join in 32 turns, we will have 2 fewer cities for unit support.
While building up these worker stacks, they can work extra tiles for our core that is about to grow and in the last 7 turns before the join, they can make some railroad in our core.
