SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[WackenOpenAir]

Indeed, the alliance doesn't tie us down. Only the lux for gpt. I don't think we should get ourselves stuck for another 8 more turns. I actually hate not being able to attack now. As soon as they get nationalism, it is over and we won't get the best science farm on the map.

Mecca can draft one guy for defence when it grows size 7.
Paris could also draft when needed. It will grow back the same turn. I think it is good to draft 1 guy there and bring it to Trontheim. We can draft another to defend Paris when enemies are knocking on it's door. Railroads should soon connect Paris and Orleans so that those can be defended together. (Of course the other islands also need a railroad around them asap) Defences in our home area should also be improved a little. Maybe 2 knights from that extra production before the delayed hospitals is not a bad idea.

The 12 turns peace with Greece will probably be needed to conquer the Iroqs anyay. We barely have anything left there, just the armies. I aint even sure if we will succeed conquering the Iroqois. We can only kill 4 units in 1 turn, and then we have to go home for healing our armies. If we don't succeed here within 12 turns, i think we could leave them alive and take Greece instead. Athens is a much more important city for us. That is of course if living Iroqs won't pose any thread to our victory condition.

In spain, we can either fight all the spanish troops, or we will have to gift the next city we take as well. Since our wounded units can safely find cover underneath the army, i think have enough strength there to kill all those spanish units without too much losses.

It would however be nice if we could send some reenforcements from Spain to the southern island. If they leave now, they will be there in 10 turns. If we are to fight those spanish units, we will probably be able to send units only after fighting and healing, in 4 turns or so.

 

[Abegweit]

I suspect they are attracted to a barb camp in the fog (there was a barb in Abegweit's last save) like moths to a light.

I'm pretty sure that's the case. You can see that they are moving towards the camp. The knight has been busy killing barbs (there have been three) so he hasn't been able to take out the camp. Next turn probably and then the Koreans should go home.

Did we sell the harbor in Barcelona before gifting it? If Sparta should fall (or a MW cuts the route), our deal could end before 12 turns are gone...

Nothing was sold. I was hoping that it would still be there when we re-take the city.

 

[killercane]

Well I will have a look at it in a few hours. Play sometime this weekend.

 

[killercane]

Alright I had a look. We certainly are nearing the point where workers from Constantinople are not desireable; 10 more I think will have to be enough since it will not affect the research for the next 10 turns. It is not how much science can we generate at end game, it is hitting the tech benchmarks to shave turns off every tech from here on out. We are going to have to use wealth in Constantinople to help out the money situation.

I think the tech order should be (assuming no gold shortage):
Medicine should take 6 turns.
Sanitation- 5
Corporation- 5
Electricity- 7, perhaps 6
Sci Method- 4 or 5
Rep Parts- 6. This is delayed due to its high cost. We may switch this up if the science works out.

At this point we should mass add in workers if it helps our science marks. We will only have 6 techs left. This gives us the UN around 1100.

Someone mentioned our unit support problems being lessened when we have metros. In Feudalism unit support is worse, with only 1 supported by a metro.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I don't expect we should stop making workers in 10 turns. In fact, i kinda expected 25 turns or so, but we can see later.

Replacable parts should imo be our primary goal after hospitals, the worker speed can be of good help. Unless we will have the world railroaded that is. You don't need to think of turns for a tech untill we can run 100% science consistently. Instead, just think of 60k beakers to go. So that should not be a reason to have RP later.

To reduce unit support, we should disband units in our farms to help production after we have Spain and Greece. I hope we can have these soon. We can also add some workers in the cities as soon as we have hospitals if that reduces support. If we are getting near zero unit support, we should leave the rest of our workers for irrigating and railroading first though.

 

[killercane]

Well part of stopping workers is adding to our ability to run 100% science (wealth, less upkeep). This is an area of diminishing returns since we are limited on cities. Really we only need the 9 core cities with less than 20% waste immediately railroaded and grown to size 20. Outside of those 9, Oporto and Orleans will be railed since they are close to where the workers will be and can be easily workered.

I will stop several of the worker jobs by Oporto and Lisbon and rail back to Delhi/Bombay to set those up to grow. I think many of the workers in Portugal should then travel to Paris as soon as possible. Skip all of the hills and mountains in railroading and rearrange tiles for commerce.

Can we produce 1 turn workers at size 12 in Constantinople with everything railed and irrigated? I do believe we can.

It looks like Klarius finished between 1050 and 1150 AD. Or they are still playing.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Well, we can always keep producing workers, if we immeadiately join them, they don't cost upkeep. If we can do it at size 12, that is certainly worth investigating and could be a good thing.

I think our workers should first make railroads across our islands that will help our national defence, then railroad the rest. They should do most islands simultaniously, but pay a little attention to the hospital builds and have those finish in time.
Hills can indeed be skipped for now, and so can Plains. We should also bring a bunch of workers to the southern islands somewhere in the future.

Only 9 extra population are really important in Paris. After that, they are just scientists. Paris will grow pop in 2. joining 6-7 workers into Paris should bring us a long way. The scientists can then grow naturally.

We have 40 more units than we can support now. In the next 11-12 turns, we will have sanitation. We will then have 11-12 extra workers and probably 3 extra knights ? (I have never seen any reaction on the knight vs granary issue in the mentioned cities that have excess production before hospitals)

We will also have 3 more towns hopefully to make up for that extra 15 unit support. If we join 20 workers when hospitals are ready, and we can disband 20 units, we can get rid of our unit support right there.

That would probably mean joining 7 workers in Paris, 6 in Teoti and 6 in Osaka. From there, we can just keep producing workers at 1 per turn and keep joining 1 every turn.

20 units is a lot, but i think we can get rid of quite some boats. We should bring a bunch of units to the southern island and then a bunch of workers. Other than that, we only need a few ferry services:
1. Const - Japtec - Egypt.
1. Const - India.
1. Paris - Spain.
1. Spain - Portugal (until we eventually railroad that pass, but that is of course last priority)
1. Paris - Trontheim
3. Core - Southern island.

That should be about enough i think for serving around some workers and in the far future, some tanks

We have still 11 turns to go before hospitals. I don't think you really need to stop worker jobs now at portugal. If we plan to make these cities better than science farms, they need some worked lands i guess.

 

[killercane]

We can produce 1 turn workers at size 12. We grow in two when we are a metro. My thinking now is to produce them every other turn at the highest size we can achieve, with wealth on the other turn or units if we can support them/need them. Edit: We can maintain a 2 turn growth cycle at size 25.

Or we can keep Const size 12 for the next 40 turns if we can get a ship chain to move workers directly to cities to add them in.

When should we declare on the Greeks?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I won't be near my civ game for another day.

I guess for now you can at least just continue making workers every turn and start improving the island to enable 1 turn workers at size 12.

We can then either join workers in to become size 12, or we can let the city grow every turn until it is size 12. It doesn't matter for workers, but the second option allows us to build something in those 6 turns. It won't be something big though with all the irrigation. Maybe a knight or something. If we go on to size 25, we can decide later.

I think we should declare on greece when our lux deal with them expires.

 

[killercane]

Preturn

Alright I have been avoiding this management fest! Our Knight in
Portugal goes to 1/4 attempting the barb camp. There is still a horse
there. Stop several workers there, roading tundra and mining.

Rearrange tiles at Bombay and Delhi; Bombay benefits more from the
spices than Delhi for 2 of them (4 bpt vs. 2).

Kill Iro pike by our town. We cant really take their cities with so
few troops. Kill another mountie. Attack Madrid. I do not take the city on purpose, just killed 2 pikes. Lost one AC to the last pike and it surely only has one there now. The city could be taken but it would leave us open for counterattack.

Slow some of the bank builds.

Gunpowder to America for 12 gpt and 18 gold. Invention to Hannibal for
19 gold. Spices, Furs and gems to Germany for the 6 gpt after I
investigated trade options in everyones posts. I intentionally didnt
give them wool since there is a spanish galley headed down the coast
and we dont want it to block the harbor at Paris.

Switch Paris to the lake tile from a plains.

Attack and kill the Iro pike by Mecca. Ship workers back to Const. that were on the ferry.

Turn 1

Take Madrid after bombarding and unload the troops there. Kill some
Spanish units around. Kill some Iro units in the south. The Spanish land by Orleans so kill those units there; there is a Mongol galley creeping around Paris as well.

More micromanagement of the railing crews. The barbarians kill our knight.

Turn 2

Paris completes Newtons. We are at 718 bpt. An MGL produces a leader at Athens. I set it to a Frigate to protect the bay there since it needs to build something now before the hospital. It will also build a worker soon.

Invention to England for 1 gpt and 12 gold. The units at Madrid have to heal (there is a barracks there).

Turn 3

Clean up more Spanish units by Madrid with Dromon bombards. Workers

are moving along with the rails. Ivory for 24 gold from the Germans. We have nothing to give Korea

besides Industry (they have only 29 gold).

Turn 4

Im going to prepare to ship some workers to Paris with the dromon fleet available. They will arrive a bit after Sanitation.

The attack begins on Pyongyang with our Knight army. The Iro horses are pillaged.

Turn 5

Pyong is ours and Spanish destroyed. Medicine in 1 turn at only -58 gold! Set up the troops to ship south. Might have to upgrade to galleons for this.

Spices and furs to korea for their gold (33).

Turn 6

We take Niagara Falls with no losses. The troops in Spain are going to have to be shipped south as they are costing too much for us. Paris will have enough workers for add in I believe.

The workers in Portugal are almost done. I will ship some of these back to Japtec land.

Const. begins on a hospital with a factory prebuild.

Turn 7

I have to take the 60 gold from Greece for Medicine. I sell it to Babs and Russians as well so Greece doesnt trade anything.

2 galleons are upgraded for the armies. Dromons are sent south with some troops.

Turn 8

Kill some Mongol units by Trondheim and Orleans. Kill some more Iro archers. Ship some workers to Teno.

Niagara Falls is holding some taxmen while rioting.

Paris' hospital begins. All of the banks are due in 3, so Paul you need to change these hospitals on the interturn of course.

Chemistry to Abe for 8 gpt and a bit of lump sum.

Ottos chip in 15 gold and 2 gpt for Medicine.

Turn 9

Industry to Greece for 30 gold. Mecca is a bit unhappy. I am drafting to keep these towns under size 6; These rifles can be disbanded into the marketplace when the Iro are done.

Const will need a couple of forest cuts but it should get the hospital built when it hits size 12.

Turn 10

COntinue roading and move troops to Iroquois capital. All hospitals are set to build next turn. I think we should then add in 20 or so workers, esp. in Paris. I did not check the trades available for this turn.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Looks very good.

We are running out of gold, and next turn we have hospitals. I have made a little list with workers, jobs and joins.


Besides Paris, Teoti and Osaka have priority for worker joins because they won't have their own growth and they are closest to our capital. In Paris, only the joins up to size 20 are valuable. After that, its just sceintists like in all core towns. So each of these towns need 6-7 workers.

Lots of work has to be done on the Japtec Island. Also most worker joins are needed here. 3 workers are on there way in a boat. The 12 from const will soon be ready there and can go to japtec as well. That makes 30 total workers. 18 if we join 12. These could do 240 worker towns of work in 14 turns. Sounds good to me.

France has 15+8 workers. 8+8 after joining 6 in Paris. These will need 11 turns to conplete all the work in France. Sounds good to me.

After their work in France, (part of) these workers can be transported to Trontheim. They can railroad Trontheim in 8 or so more turns. Tronheim is ready 20 turns from now.

Workers in Port-India have jobs for only 4 turns.

I would like the workers from Port-India to move to Egypt. They can Irrigate and railroad there in 10 turns. Some may join in there later, or we send them to southland.

The slaves from Port-India can go to Spain. They will have 20 turns of work there.

When all those jobs are done, the workers could move to southland. But that will be 20 turns from now, a little late, but we can't have everything done tomorrow. We could have Rep parts ready by then to speed up the work in southland.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Another option would be not to join 12 workers in Japtec, but send them to southland now.

This would cost:
12 fewer citizens producing 2 commerce each = 24 commerce in 10% corrupt towns = 45 bpt. It would also cost 12x3 = 36 commerce for upkeep. 750 science = worth 450 gold on the sliders. So 36 gold = 60 bpt. Total cost of not joining these workers is 105 bpt. The workers would then be joined about 20 turns later (when the other workers are ready) so the total cost is about 2000 beakers.

The reward would be that The southern island would have 250 extra worker jobs done in the next 20 turns. In other words, 25 tiles irrigated and railroaded 20 turns earlier that then would have been otherwise. That makes 25tiles x 20turns x 2food = 1000 food we can buy for 2000 beakers. averaging the granary size there to 40, that will make about 50 citizens, half of them working, half of them being scientists. 25 scientists make 75bpt. almost 30 turns to pay back the investment.

It's not super, but i guess it's better to keep them for working southland than to join them now.

 

[killercane]

We will also need some around to clean up pollution. This is especially true in Paris since it will have factory/coal plant. I guess we will be ecologically friendly elsewhere with no more factories.

I think we should shoot for Electricity next in 6 turns; after the worker adds we will have to see how close we are to 935 bpt. If we can get it in 6, we will be able to do 4 turn corporation and sci method then, and then try for Rep Parts in 5.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Another choise is to have const make workers at size 12, or at size 25. If we make them at size 12, that costs us some 45 bpt that the city could make more. Joining them into Osaka and Teoti is worth 3bpt per worker. payback time 15 turns. This is a good investment, so while the workers from const can go to southland, const can make new workers for Teoti and Osaka.

To make it short:
Work in southland is more important than joining in Osaka and Teoti.
Joining in osaka and teoti is more important than growing to size 25.

Thus, we should send our workers to southland and const should make new ones to join into osaka and Teoti.

I am not yet sure if we should do corp and sci before rep. Of course we don't want to waste anything by going beyond 4 turn research and thus do the cheapest first. however, Doing Rep parts first will double the value of our workers. That is also worth a lot. I think we should see and decide when Electricity is researched. We can then see if we are gonna be much beyond 1000bpt on corp and sci (cost 4k each) if we do rep parts first or just a little. If it's gonna be just a little, we should get RP first.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

56k beakers to go trough industrial age.

We must now balance our investments for future so that we don't exceed 4 turn research, but still do as many good investments as we can.
If we go for rep parts first and then the 2 cheap techs, it would take about 12-13 turns before we have rep parts. We then need 1000 bpt to do the cheap techs in 4. This is in corespondence with the earlier mentioned milestones and i think it should fit.

In 20-22 turns, we have grown just past 1000 bpt and we have done the cheap techs, we can use up to 1400 bpt without making any overrun. At this point we also have all our worker jobs done except southland and we can make a leap by setting many cities from growth to scientists. And maybe adding more workers. I think we can now increase our bpt to 1200 or so. Except for the southern island, most of our lands will be near their full use now. Over time, the southern island should add another 150-200 bpt or so.

 

[killercane]

Can Paris produce 1 turn workers at size 20+?

Edit: Yes Paris can do 1 turn workers as a metro. If we get ships in place we can then put them anywhere. Pollution might be a problem though and we need several workers there on hand.

We have some time to get the ships in place. Workers from Paris can immediately by joined to Orleans until it hits its growth cap. A scientist there is as good as anywhere else.

I think we should shoot for Electricity in 6 and then the two cheaper ones unless we can get Rep parts in 5 turns sooner (1120 bpt). I dont think we will get there in ten turns but we might.

If Paris is on workers we could build the UN somewhere else with good production. We would also need ToE built somewhere.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

most cities will grow very rapidly by themselves and don't really need much worker joining for a long time. Only Teoti and Osaka will really need it. All other cities will have grown to their max size soon. Workers are important in the next 20-30 turns. After that, i don't think producing more workers is gonna be very important.

Therefore, i think Paris should build both wonders. It will have time to produce some other things as well before the wonders, so some workers are possible.

Getting rep parts in 10 instead of 20 turns effectively provides us about 500 extra worker turns of work done. That is 1500 gold in upkeep value alone. Even if Rep. parts will take 1 turn longer, that is worth it and we will win that turn back later. We won't get rep parts in 5 turns after electricity. I am not sure we would get it in 5 after the cheap techs though. Or that we will get both cheap techs in 4 after electricity without very much of a hastle. Just cut the research some slack now. Do rep parts in 6. This way you won't have to delay growth by using scientists in cities that could still grow only to get those techs in 4 turns and rep parts will produce a lot of extra railroads and irrigation. It will surely pay back later if we don't try to research on the edge now.

 

[killercane]

I have to disagree. By the time we get the workers to where they are really needed (the south), we will have RP. We need time to grow to 1100+ beakers though.

I think Paris on workers at size 20+ and Const on workers at size 12 works well. With city growth elsewhere, we add at least 10 bpt every turn from here on out. If we pump up to 935+ beakers now, we are guaranteeing a good finish. We only have 50 turns left.

Can we spread the worker add ins around to avoid pollution for longer (til we get RP)?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Ok, then we disagree. Lets see what things look like when we have electricity.

Polution won't be a big problem for a while. we can leave some workers behind for cleaning. No worries i think.

 

[Paul#42]

Great setup, KC!

I'll have a closer look this evening. It was a quite exhausting weekend and this week I'm on a (internal) workshop.

So I'm not sure when to play, it might depend on how clearly I see the targets

edit:
Okay, got it. Plan to play 2-3 turns tomorrow.

Some points:
Mongols, Americans & Persia
I had thought we wanted to ally Persia against Mongols - or was it just me?
Now with just 5 turns left - let our alliance with America run out and sign peace?

Greece, Iroqois and Russia
I plan to attack Greece after the Ivory deal expired (2 turns).
Iroqouis should fall easily when our reinforcements arrive. That's four-five turns from now. Should we ally Russia now against them to weaken and expose both?
I think we should attack Russia anyway to get Sparta then? Their other towns are not too bad either and they and Greece are (apart from Carthage) the only witness of our treachery.
Our bored armies could then take care of Carthage (ceterum censeo carthaginem delendam esse - did I say that before? )

Is the MGL meant to rush a hospital in Athens? After we pop-rushed the Lib in 9 turns?

Paris starts a factory after the hospital - what do the other metros do with their shields? Wealth? tank prebuilds?

We still have rax' in Kyoto and Madrid - no need to keep them, right (Okay, I'll keep Madrid's till Alex is dust - just in case)?

Should we build Smith's (spares us 29gpt for 14 harbors and 15 markets) if someone eventually comes up with economics?

About worker joins and cost: In two turns we get another shock in unit support: 8 cities grow to metros, causing us to lose 16 (?) free units' support = 48 gpt.
That will give our scientists some distraction. We need to check every single unit if we can keep it... However if our military shrinks to far, Americans, Carthaginians or alike might get hostile... I don't have to tell you guys what will happen if Americans backstab us, right?