SGOTM 12 - Unusual Suspects

[kcd_swede]

FWIW, I seldom prioritize the GLH in a space race, except maybe if I'm on an archipelago or islands map.

"Typical" fast space strategies always talk about the importance of rapid early expansion. GLH is never discussed as a generally strong wonder for space -- I gather it is very map-dependant. As Yamps notes, you drive the research (and later production) by working productive tiles in lots of big cities. If we bias all our settling to the coasts we could actually hurt ourselves with GLH.

Block off lots of land to settle. At some point with technology advantage, use rapid decisive war(s) to get up near the domination limits in land area. Then cruise to space. Sound easy?

Even though we have been fixated on the GLH, it is not too late to switch focus. And I think getting exploration going is the key to making informed decisions. Exploration will also aid in dot-mapping our settling plan. There is no way to determine whether GLH is worth or not with the map knowledge we now posess. Note, during worldbuilding, I generated a number of fractal maps using game settings, and they were everything from near-pangea, to islands-like maps. Obviously the advantage of GLH changes depending on which guess you make.

How's this for a suggestion: we proceed with the I-plan (or modifications of it) getting units and settlers earlier (maybe even a chariot to explore/choke, if there looks like non-FO places to speed movement?). We'll stop in about 15-20 turns and evaluate the best way to go with about twice as many tiles revealed and thus about 20 times as much map knowledge as we have now.

But the basic PPP up to Library still seems valid and flexible enough to cover whatever we decide on this issue, so further delay seems unwarranted...

I'm going to play a bit and try to make a PPP to the Library. Back in an hour or so.

 

[kcd_swede]

K-plan: (this is same as I-plan, with worker at pop4, but puts writing later to time with need to start library -- library completes one turn later, but no beaker loss because of Pottery pre-req).

pottery>writing>sailing t62 test save (note, sailing is ok even if we decide no GLH, but masonry no).

wb>worker>warrior>library t62 test save

View attachment 267430
...............

This would give us 3 workers, more FO cleared = faster settling, extra tile cleared compared with 2-worker alternative.
It gives us a garrison/fogbusting warrior (completes simultaneous with writing), and early exploring wb.

I've tested the Y-plan with pottery first also. You can get the library 2t earlier this way, plus a granary near completion (hammers after garrison waiting for writing), and pop6 instead of pop5. In this, the garrison is needed for happiness at pop6.

I think the extra worker turns plus the extra worker is worth it. I think pottery should come before writing. I think the wb3 should be built before anything else.

The only other thing (besides what already found) in "other actions" that I'd add to already posted PPP's is "Diplo: OB with Ghandi at first opportunity".

 

[Indiansmoke]

Ok lots of ideas flowing around...

The ducks score is propably due to Oracle?

In any case rexing means lots of workers as we cannot settle on radiation and cannot use the land before cleaning...

Rexing needs financial support and TGLH is exactly that...we know this is a heavy water map so question is whether we can make peace with ai's and whether we will have trade routes before astro. I belive that there will be contact before astro so my opinion is to go for it.


So in short I am for workboat, third worker, library, settler, lighthouse GLH

@ Yamps...when i say fogbusting I mean for ai units, I know that barbs are off, but if an ai unit shows up from the fog we will lose city...

In theory chocking the ai is good but we don't even know where they are....so I prefer to be minimal and safe than to chase some chocking business I am not sure about.

 

[Indiansmoke]

K-plan: (this is same as I-plan, with worker at pop4, but puts writing later to time with need to start library -- library completes one turn later, but no beaker loss because of Pottery pre-req).

pottery>writing>sailing t62 test save (note, sailing is ok even if we decide no GLH, but masonry no).

wb>worker>warrior>library t62 test save

View attachment 267430
...............

This would give us 3 workers, more FO cleared = faster settling, extra tile cleared compared with 2-worker alternative.
It gives us a garrison/fogbusting warrior (completes simultaneous with writing), and early exploring wb.

Yeap, this is the plan I am talking about, pottery first makes sense if it times well with start of making library.

 

[kcd_swede]

Ok lots of ideas flowing around...

The ducks score is propably due to Oracle?

In any case rexing means lots of workers as we cannot settle on radiation and cannot use the land before cleaning...

Rexing needs financial support and TGLH is exactly that...we know this is a heavy water map so question is whether we can make peace with ai's and whether we will have trade routes before astro. I belive that there will be contact before astro so my opinion is to go for it.


So in short I am for workboat, third worker, library, settler, lighthouse GLH

@ Yamps...when i say fogbusting I mean for ai units, I know that barbs are off, but if an ai unit shows up from the fog we will lose city...

In theory chocking the ai is good but we don't even know where they are....so I prefer to be minimal and safe than to chase some chocking business I am not sure about.

When the library is done, we should have a lot more info, for example what date the Stonhenge is built, what kind of land is around, and maybe where are the neighbors. That should aid a great deal in deciding the next steps.

 

[The Simple Mind]

K-plan: (this is same as I-plan, with worker at pop4, but puts writing later to time with need to start library -- library completes one turn later, but no beaker loss because of Pottery pre-req).

pottery>writing>sailing t62 test save (note, sailing is ok even if we decide no GLH, but masonry no).

wb>worker>warrior>library t62 test save

View attachment 267430
...............

This would give us 3 workers, more FO cleared = faster settling, extra tile cleared compared with 2-worker alternative.
It gives us a garrison/fogbusting warrior (completes simultaneous with writing), and early exploring wb.

I've tested the Y-plan with pottery first also. You can get the library 2t earlier this way, plus a granary near completion (hammers after garrison waiting for writing), and pop6 instead of pop5. In this, the garrison is needed for happiness at pop6.

I think the extra worker turns plus the extra worker is worth it. I think pottery should come before writing. I think the wb3 should be built before anything else.

The only other thing (besides what already found) in "other actions" that I'd add to already posted PPP's is "Diplo: OB with Ghandi at first opportunity".

K Plan sound good. I like having the extra worker to connect & clear city sites particluarly if we are going to REX.

GLH - Not sure now if we should go for this or not. Depending when Stonehenge goes it might still be viable to produce some extra workers / settlers to REX and still go for it.

As per usual the next set is the important one. Good luck KCD.

 

[Yamps]

I'll have a more detailed look later...Some comments:

It's not the Oracle, MC would only add 12 more to the score. (WB check) It must be fast third city.

Going for Pottery seems like a bad idea. We don't need a granary and library only needs 3 turns to make up the difference in prerequisites. Is it more than 3 turns to research pottery? If so, earlier library beats that.

I agree with the third worker, but it's the size 4 timing that doesn't seem right since we can grow to size 5 and work the mine at that time and still get the fallout cleared in time for the next city with the third worker.

I was pretty happy yesterday with the 'Y option C' city builds: WB -> Chariot at size 4-> switch to Library-> finish chariot -> warrior -> worker -> settler (at size 6)

Indiansmoke's plan relies heavily on using the first archer for garrison, I don't think we should go with that. We must explore, possibly pillage as well. This plan would give us a chariot and more beakers. Less fallout cleared, but I don't find it important since all the important tiles would be cleared in time. If we're going REX, we're continuing with worker->settler immediately after the first settler.

It's the tech that's problematic to me. We won't need the early granary for our first two cities. Possibly not in the third city either, if we hire two scientists for Philosophy there and use the capital for REX. Without the GLH, Sailing is dubious too. We'll need Agriculture to get the rice for health...maybe Writing->Agriculture->? Saving the beakers for Alpha->Currency could be very important here to fund our REX. How about Writing->Agriculture->Pottery? We'll need Pottery before Currency and this gets the bonus on Pottery with having Agriculture.

 

[kcd_swede]

Going for Pottery seems like a bad idea. We don't need a granary and library only needs 3 turns to make up the difference in prerequisites. Is it more than 3 turns to research pottery? If so, earlier library beats that.

Try it yourself. Pottery takes 4 turns. But it slows down the library only 2 turns. The library is built faster because more developed tiles are used from start to finish and writing is shorter, which isn't the case if you start building it as soon as writing is done (starting with writing).
True, we don't need granary yet. But we will use pottery in saving some beakers (albeit most or all of those saved beakers are lost by not having library 2 turns), and will need it eventually anyhow. (Sort of like the argument for archery).

It puts the units first (wb3, worker3, and warrior), which I think is good, too.

But it is a question of priorities. I can see the other way being advantageous, too.

Indiansmoke's plan relies heavily on using the first archer for garrison, I don't think we should go with that.

No garrison is needed up until pop6, for happiness anyhow. I agree that first archer is going for a walk. With pottery first, the garrison warrior fits in nicely, but of course you cuold have that be hammers into a chariot or archer that you finish after the library instead. Garrison unit is a fast build when we need it... we'll have enough forewarning if a badguy comes along.

Less fallout cleared, but I don't find it important since all the important tiles would be cleared in time.

It seems more efficient to me to have the health penalty lower earlier. Doesn't mean its better. But it feels like it. We have a lot of wroker turns to conduct... FO and roads and new city improvements. I think the worker3 pays back over time, but of course it also feels effective getting to pop6 fast with 2 workers and putting worker3 there while we are at the happy cap. I think getting 2 settlers out is faster with the earlier worker3, but haven't actually tested that.

Without the GLH, Sailing is dubious too.

Yeah, I've considered that. I think the arguements for GLH are still sound, and that we want to keep that option open... but we could pause after writing (instead of after library) and decide.

How about Writing->Agriculture->Pottery? We'll need Pottery before Currency and this gets the bonus on Pottery with having Agriculture.

I was thinking more like pottery>writing>agriculture... but yeah, whatever. I don't think we're ready to switch focus from GLH to currency yet, but its a possibility.

Anyhow, I like a settler or two before the GLH.

I am beginning to think the reason we are having such difficulty pinning down a course of action is that the options we are considering give very similar result. In which case it is not a huge difference what we finally decide. I'll leave it to the greater minds to decide. Executing should be no problem having run the test save so many times now...

 

[Yamps]

Try it yourself. Pottery takes 4 turns. But it slows down the library only 2 turns. The library is built faster because more developed tiles are used from start to finish and writing is shorter, which isn't the case if you start building it as soon as writing is done (starting with writing).
True, we don't need granary yet. But we will use pottery in saving some beakers (albeit most or all of those saved beakers are lost by not having library 2 turns), and will need it eventually anyhow. (Sort of like the argument for archery).

I see, 4 turns are not much... I'll try it out!

No garrison is needed up until pop6, for happiness anyhow. I agree that first archer is going for a walk. With pottery first, the garrison warrior fits in nicely, but of course you cuold have that be hammers into a chariot or archer that you finish after the library instead. Garrison unit is a fast build when we need it... we'll have enough forewarning if a badguy comes along.

No, I mean using the archer to garrison our second city instead of exploring. Indiansmoke timed the settler with that, skipping other units.

It seems more efficient to me to have the health penalty lower earlier. Doesn't mean its better. But it feels like it. We have a lot of wroker turns to conduct... FO and roads and new city improvements. I think the worker3 pays back over time, but of course it also feels effective getting to pop6 fast with 2 workers and putting worker3 there while we are at the happy cap. I think getting 2 settlers out is faster with the earlier worker3, but haven't actually tested that.

There's a 'just in time' principle in logistics I think we should follow. Building the third worker slightly later gets our premium tiles worked earlier and fallout cleared just in time for the settler to settle. I've been using two workers to clear that fallout and to improve the elephant tile, in time with Yar's growth to size 2. The last worker roads the plain mine (fastest way to connect rice) and proceeds to improve the rice.

I am beginning to think the reason we are having such difficulty pinning down a course of action is that the options we are considering give very similar result. In which case it is not a huge difference what we finally decide. I'll leave it to the greater minds to decide. Executing should be no problem having run the test save so many times now...

Heh, we've come this far so we'll finish it. It's true that results are similar, but things accumulate. In any case, good brain storming here!

Here's another idea that came to mind: how about roaming around a bit with that archer around our second city and using the chariot for exploring/pillaging? Pillaging is important to keep the slider up, I've plundered some 50 gold in one test just with one archer. Chariot is even better, archers won't dare to attack it on flat ground. We might get lucky there and keep the nearby AI in stone age!

 

[kcd_swede]

Test results to two settlers (note, building 2 settlers on top of each other is not optimum, but just for sake of seeing how fast it could be done, I did it anyhow):

Plan A: pottery>writing>sailing>masonry>agri>alpha(in progress)
wb3-worker3-warrior-library-archer2-archer3-settler1-settler2

Its turn 75 and we are at pop 6. Note, archer2 and 3 are built to grow to pop6, but if we want to build settlers at pop5, it can be done faster with less tiles worked. (turns 61-66 for archers, but not 5 turns saved by growing to pop 6).

All fallout in BFC is cleared, Yar is settled 1S from cow. 3 worker turns to roads in transit.


Plan B: writing>sailing>agri>masonry>alpha(in progress)
wb3-archer2-library-lighthouse(part)-settler-lighthouse-settler

Its turn 72, but we have a problem, Houston. Even leaving 1FO in BFC, we have settler1 before we can clear the spot 1S from the cows. I sent him to the forestPH next to copper instead, and worked to clear FO on rice. Settler2 is done in t72, but there is nowhere to send him. Obviously, we'd delay for another worker before building settler2, but even then, its pretty tight getting the settling spot cleared in time. The good news is that LH is already done and GLH can do in 16 turns.

I got the feel that Plan B is faster. Pop6 is really powerful (even though it gives -1 health even after all FO is cleared). However, the problem that needs to be overcome is to get worker3 before settler1 and clear the desired settling spot before settler1 is built. If I build -library-LH(part)-worker3-settler1 I get the settler1 in turn71 and can finish settler2 for turn75, and get the spot cleared in time for settler1 to settle 1S from cow, leaving grass plains FO in BFC unmodified (mine on PH).

So it can be done to settler2 as fast, getting more tech. I think its the way to go, even though you could probably match the settling turn in Plan A by building settlers at pop5. I think its better at pop6.

Anyhow... done testing. Let me know what you want, how far you want to take it, etc.

 

[kcd_swede]

The last was cross-post. I'm leaning once again towards Plan Y, which is embodied by plan B above.

However, I did notice one thing... in our test save, there is no fallout on the three or four newly revealed tiles, but in the REAL SAVE, that elephant is in fallout. Doesn't affect any of my tests, but if you use that tile, be aware... your milage may vary.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I agree with the third worker, but it's the size 4 timing that doesn't seem right since we can grow to size 5 and work the mine at that time and still get the fallout cleared in time for the next city with the third worker.

I was pretty happy yesterday with the 'Y option C' city builds: WB -> Chariot at size 4-> switch to Library-> finish chariot -> warrior -> worker -> settler (at size 6)

That is tottaly cool if we are not going for TGLH. But if we are we delay it 5 turns...those 5 turns can be crusial.

Remember that the most important function of the third worker is building the plains hill mine while teh other 2 improve gold and prepare second city settling.

We need that mine when we hit size 6 to be there if we go for GLH.

 

[Deckhand]

"tldr" (new abbrevation I learned at CivFanatics recently) (will get around to it later) well, "read" them, but understanding them is another matter.

Could someone post a simple decision matrix: I don't know if this is a good idea or not.

plan pro con notes
GLH
Settler Spam
Choke neighbor
whatever


OTOH, I defer to those of you that have been test playing games. this is still true
Since we have taken this long, maybe step back for a day and look at possible paths. OR play now initial turns that are common to all plans. OTOH, playing sooner is also important.

edit
thoughts:
early chariot, 3rd worker, settlers are important
we can exceed domination limit since only space is enabled
GLH is capturable and we will likely be at war with its builder

Final Thought: We share our continent. Getting our share of it is very important.

 

[Yamps]

^that's a good idea! This got a bit too tedious... (even for me)

Basically, here are the issues:

1) When do we build the third worker?
2) When or if do we build a chariot?
3) What's our tech order?
4) Should we dismiss the GLH?

-------------------

3)

I'll start with 3, I think that's the easiest part to solve. I've compared Pottery->Writing and Writing->(Agriculture)->Pottery. Going for Pottery first gets the bonus for Writing, but loses the bonus from Agriculture. These two are roughly the same, but Agriculture->Pottery will gain additional bonus from AI having Pottery and there's also a possibility to gain more from earlier library.

There was a question if Sailing is useful without the GLH. We'll need it to connect our cities without roads and possibly to get AI trade routes as well.


So, the conclusion would be Writing->Sailing for our tech path.


1) and 2)

These two are related. One plan proposes building the worker at size 4, with chariot after that or not at all. The other plan proposes building the chariot while growing and worker after that.

After all the testing, I'm pretty much convinced that we should build the chariot asap. I've tested with wb how the AI responds to a nearby chariot. Archers chicken out, letting the chariot pillage around! If our neighbor civ doesn't have BFC copper, it's doomed to stay in stone age.

With the delayed worker, our good tiles are worked because the city grows and more beakers are generated. I'm still getting the fallout cleared just in time for T70 Yar settling and T84 GLH if we go for that.

The alternative plan will get more tiles cleared and T81 GLH if the chariot is skipped and our existing archer used for second city garrison.

3 turns difference risk is something I'm willing to take. It should also be noted that 3 teams that already played by all certainty didn't go for a very early GLH. Expansion is the only thing to explain that. I've tried adding GLH, Oracle and MC, it's just 16 for each wonder and 12 for MC. They've played more and they now the map better than we do. I'm guessing there's some sea food near that copper and that they went for the third city.

4) We can decide that later, we're not committed yet.

----------------------

So, the plan I have in mind, final version:

Writing -> Sailing
WB -> Chariot -> Library

Archer explores a bit around our second city spot, with chariot taking over for search/destroy missions.

This takes us to T59, where we have to make the tech choice. In 2 turns the city grows to size 6 working 6 improved tiles. From that point, it takes 3 turns to build the third worker with settler following. Settling time is T70 and GLH build time T84.


@kcd

I think I'm done with testings as well... Let the team choose at this point. If we can't reach the consensus, it's best that you as active player decide!

 

[kcd_swede]

Nice summary Yamps.

I'll go with:

Writing -> Sailing
WB -> Chariot -> Library
Stop at library, or when sailing done, whichever comes first. (I forget, with all the different variations, which will come first).

As I understand it, I will finish the chariot before starting the library. Is that correct?

Worker actions will be those I've done 20 times (at least) already:
cow, cow road, river mine, cow FO

All the previous-mentioned pause conditions are in effect, as are the info-monitoring actions. Will OB with Ghandi if he lets us.

Answer my question about the chariot (in some variations, the chariot would need 1 more turn to complete after writing is learned) and give me the green and I'll get it done today. or whenever you say.

 

[Yamps]

Conveniently, Library&Sailing come at the same time. Yes, this is also the variation that gets writing at the time when chariot has 1 turn to completion. I think we should finish the chariot first, to get it out asap for pillaging. Note that this play leaves the capital without garrison, but we should be all right.

It's green from me, but wait a bit to hear other team members. I'm not sure how many are following this, I'm afraid that all these tests made them turn away! Remember to take care with worker micro, to avoid possible stack loss of turns. Also, if at any point you think that we should dismiss our plan for whatever reason, use your judgment and make a stop if it's something important to discuss.

 

[kcd_swede]

OK... I'll do another dry run through with the test save. That way I'll be sure to recognize if anything comes up that wasn't anticipated. I want to see if I can do all the keystrokes with my eyes closed.
Don't worry... eyes open during real play.


If I have to wait more than 3-4 hours, though, it means I'll be doing it on another computer and be having to install the SG12 mod there. Not a big issue... its a stable system and has never balked with any of the mods. Just wanted to say... for me sooner is better than later, but I'm totally flexible.

 

[Indiansmoke]

yea lets go for it, we discussed it too much..chariot out to do some damage sounds good.

 

[kcd_swede]

One more quick question... Are we planning to build a warrior garrison (which takes 2 turns after library) that will keep the happiness when the pop goes to pop6 (also 2 turns after the library)?

I ask because the chariot is free to roam if we build that warrior, but will be needed in capitol for happiness if not, and is limited to how far it can go in a few turns. I assume the answer is we want the chariot out there and will either build warrior or worker at pop5 where I save. Unless I hear otherwise, I'm putting that chariot too far from capitol to serve as military policeman.

 

[Yamps]

Yes,the plan is to build a warrior there after the library. Use the chariot to cause damage!

Go, go, go!