Mitchum
Deity
I looked at the two saves and they look the same to me. Feel free to check it out yourselves...
SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I looked at the two saves and they look the same to me. Feel free to check it out yourselves...
I see that the saves are now out so checking in at last.
At first glance the tile 3N of the corn looks like coast to me, I think what we see is what we get in terms of land.
Assuming it is coast, do we hold off a turn on settling to scout for seafood? If there's seafood there settling on the PH could be the only way to get to it.
At first glance the tile 3N of the corn looks like coast to me, I think what we see is what we get in terms of land.
Assuming it is coast, do we hold off a turn on settling to scout for seafood? If there's seafood there settling on the PH could be the only way to get to it.
Dhoomstriker
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I think that we have to perform our testing based on the info that we have visible to us after having moved the Warrior, rather than speculating on what Resources might or might not be somewhere.
If you think that we might gain an advantage by moving towards the Plains Hills Forest square and settling on it, then feel free to focus some testing around that path.
If you can show that settling on the Plains Hills square is the best choice, or is at least equal to one of the other two primary options (in-place or on the Corn), then we'll have the opportunity to explore for 1 more turn.
But I think that we should decide upon the merits of which opening gives us the best start and that way, we won't regret any Resources that might or might not later get revealed.
Unfortunately, moving the Warrior didn't really do much for us in influencing the initial settling location, except to help convince at least you and Mitchum that there isn't more land to the north.
So, we're back to where we started--finding a good opening. Having quickly played through a few possible openings, I've found that a bad opening can easily set you back by more than 20 turns, so I believe that it's important for us to find a good opening plan before continuing further play.
Mitchum
Deity
Agreed. The problem I have is what constitutes a good opening?
BBP played an opening of settling on the PH. He went worker first and has out two early scouting workboats and a settler/galley ready to go.
I played an opening of SIP. I already have two cities, all three clams netted, and I'm ahead all of Pottery on BBP's save. I did this at the expense of early exploration and a late worker.
So, do we value early research or early exploration more? Should we try to settle our second city ASAP on our starting island or do we want to wait until we can settle off shore?
These are the decisions that would greatly influence which route we take.
??
I think you misunderstood me.
What I say is that we can't know whether there's seafood up north until next turn. How can I prove whether it's better if I don't know what tiles it would have. There could be fish in the PH BFC for instance.
My question is whether a 1 turn delay (global) is worth it to make sure we don't miss out on anything to the north. On epic I would think it is.
However, this is assuming SIP is better than PH. If testing shows PH is better then ignore this point, we will waste a turn by moving anyway.
(x-post)
I think you misunderstood me.
What I say is that we can't know whether there's seafood up north until next turn. How can I prove whether it's better if I don't know what tiles it would have. There could be fish in the PH BFC for instance.
My question is whether a 1 turn delay (global) is worth it to make sure we don't miss out on anything to the north. On epic I would think it is.
However, this is assuming SIP is better than PH. If testing shows PH is better then ignore this point, we will waste a turn by moving anyway.
(x-post)
My two cents...
SIP-3E and PH are hard to compare because they're: 1) qualitatively quite different AND 2) the real value of either is somewhat dependent on what's hidden in the fog.
1) SIP needs to go WB first, because a worker would be idle between corn and BW. PH wants to go worker first, for the opposite reason. This leads to the difference in short-term growth/production and short-to-mid term beakers that's been somewhat demonstrated.
2) All of 3E, PH and SW island could have further good tile(s) that would make them more attractive. The PH-Worker opening has (IMO at least) the ability to explore surroundings and get a settler on a galley more efficiently, but the value of this depends on what's in the immediate surroundings. As does the relative value of having two on-island cities.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that this appears to me as, unfortunately, a gut-feeling decision. Rusten's question tries to go around that issue, I believe, by suggesting that we simply gather more information before deciding, at the cost one Epic-speed turn. I tend to like that.
I think we should rapidly do some more precise short-term testing on the different options, and also try to individually put some premiums on early exploring, early research rate, base hammers vs. aggressive whipping of cheap items, etc.
SIP-3E and PH are hard to compare because they're: 1) qualitatively quite different AND 2) the real value of either is somewhat dependent on what's hidden in the fog.
1) SIP needs to go WB first, because a worker would be idle between corn and BW. PH wants to go worker first, for the opposite reason. This leads to the difference in short-term growth/production and short-to-mid term beakers that's been somewhat demonstrated.
2) All of 3E, PH and SW island could have further good tile(s) that would make them more attractive. The PH-Worker opening has (IMO at least) the ability to explore surroundings and get a settler on a galley more efficiently, but the value of this depends on what's in the immediate surroundings. As does the relative value of having two on-island cities.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that this appears to me as, unfortunately, a gut-feeling decision. Rusten's question tries to go around that issue, I believe, by suggesting that we simply gather more information before deciding, at the cost one Epic-speed turn. I tend to like that.
I think we should rapidly do some more precise short-term testing on the different options, and also try to individually put some premiums on early exploring, early research rate, base hammers vs. aggressive whipping of cheap items, etc.
Just wanted to add that the "2 plot distance rule" when settling cities is not in effect if cities are not on the same landmass. Could be relevant to this game.
Sorry if it's already been mentioned.
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Agree that it's very difficult to decide what to do here, but we can tweak the "production" save for more research and vice versa to help decide.
From what I read the problem with PH is that there's a lack of research compared to SIP, maybe it's good to work the clam instead of the corn then? Would this make the save just as good in research but better in production?
I can do a test myself with different tiles if I get to know what the current test did.
1: Did you switch to clam after completing fishing?
2: Did you switch to clam when worker was out?
Still, SIP+3E looks very strong to me simply due to the ability to swap tiles and the early granary for city #2.
Edit: Then again PH can also swap tiles (just the clam as food) if we place a city 2W of current settler location - and it can whip a granary on size 2 after chopping the forest.
Sorry if it's already been mentioned.
- - - - - -
Agree that it's very difficult to decide what to do here, but we can tweak the "production" save for more research and vice versa to help decide.
From what I read the problem with PH is that there's a lack of research compared to SIP, maybe it's good to work the clam instead of the corn then? Would this make the save just as good in research but better in production?
I can do a test myself with different tiles if I get to know what the current test did.
1: Did you switch to clam after completing fishing?
2: Did you switch to clam when worker was out?
Still, SIP+3E looks very strong to me simply due to the ability to swap tiles and the early granary for city #2.
Edit: Then again PH can also swap tiles (just the clam as food) if we place a city 2W of current settler location - and it can whip a granary on size 2 after chopping the forest.
Mitchum
Deity
@Rusten
Did you mean 2W of the current settler location? 2E is a coastal square.
I don't think we've finalized anything. Run some tests to see what you think based on it. My guess is that bbp worked the corn all the way to speed up the worker, but I'm not 100% sure.
Did you mean 2W of the current settler location? 2E is a coastal square.
I don't think we've finalized anything. Run some tests to see what you think based on it. My guess is that bbp worked the corn all the way to speed up the worker, but I'm not 100% sure.
Dhoomstriker
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Part of the problem with "spending 1 turn" is... how do we spend it? A case has been made for there being additional Resources to the north for the PHFor settling location. A case has also been made for there being additional Resources to the east for the eastern City for the in-place settling location.
Will we spend 3 more turns moving the Warrior just to check out both locations?
The PHFor location has 2 potential squares for a Resource to appear.
The eastern "if we settle in-place with our first City's" second City has 5 potential squares for a Resource to appear.
What would it take for either of these locations in terms of "additional hidden Resources" for you to conclusively say that one settling location is better than the other?
And, the corollary, is that if you DO NOT find what you were looking for, will you now weigh your decision more towards the other choice or will we still be just as stuck in deciding as we are now?
As for the two squares to the north within the Plains Hills Forest's fat cross, they are Coastal, not Ocean squares. It's a lot rarer to find a Fish Resource in a Coastal square. Will you thus conclusively think that settling on the Plains Hills Forest square is the best move if we find 1 more Clam within it's fat cross? That's probably the best that we can reasonably hope to find.
Maybe I'm being too generous to DynamicSpirit, but I am going to put my trust in him that he has learned to balance starting position options... the fact that the Warrior moving didn't reveal a cache of Resources helps to increase my faith in him.
In light of these considerations, I'd rather not spend 1 turn exploring. I really think that if we want to do this exploration "properly," we need to spend 3 turns, which I think is too many turns to spend.
It doesn't help that "climbing the Plains Hills" would take two additional turns to undo, should we decide that in-place was better.
Also, let's say that there are NO additional Resources for the eastern City. I think that this City can still be great for its early Trade Route, being able to be settled without a Galley, its ability to generate Great People by sharing 2 Food Resources with the capital, and its ability to work a Grassland Hills square that in-place can't work.
What I'm not yet certain is if settling in-place and 3E is actually BETTER than settling on the Plains Hills For square, but I'm testing things out. Maybe at this point, a spreadsheet that captures Food, Hammer, and Flask totals, plus lists turn numbers for each build item and technology, would give us a simple way to compare test runs.
Will we spend 3 more turns moving the Warrior just to check out both locations?
The PHFor location has 2 potential squares for a Resource to appear.
The eastern "if we settle in-place with our first City's" second City has 5 potential squares for a Resource to appear.
What would it take for either of these locations in terms of "additional hidden Resources" for you to conclusively say that one settling location is better than the other?
And, the corollary, is that if you DO NOT find what you were looking for, will you now weigh your decision more towards the other choice or will we still be just as stuck in deciding as we are now?
As for the two squares to the north within the Plains Hills Forest's fat cross, they are Coastal, not Ocean squares. It's a lot rarer to find a Fish Resource in a Coastal square. Will you thus conclusively think that settling on the Plains Hills Forest square is the best move if we find 1 more Clam within it's fat cross? That's probably the best that we can reasonably hope to find.
Maybe I'm being too generous to DynamicSpirit, but I am going to put my trust in him that he has learned to balance starting position options... the fact that the Warrior moving didn't reveal a cache of Resources helps to increase my faith in him.
In light of these considerations, I'd rather not spend 1 turn exploring. I really think that if we want to do this exploration "properly," we need to spend 3 turns, which I think is too many turns to spend.
It doesn't help that "climbing the Plains Hills" would take two additional turns to undo, should we decide that in-place was better.
Also, let's say that there are NO additional Resources for the eastern City. I think that this City can still be great for its early Trade Route, being able to be settled without a Galley, its ability to generate Great People by sharing 2 Food Resources with the capital, and its ability to work a Grassland Hills square that in-place can't work.
What I'm not yet certain is if settling in-place and 3E is actually BETTER than settling on the Plains Hills For square, but I'm testing things out. Maybe at this point, a spreadsheet that captures Food, Hammer, and Flask totals, plus lists turn numbers for each build item and technology, would give us a simple way to compare test runs.
Dhoomstriker
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Actually, we probably don't need BOTH Food + Hammers + Flask values AND techs + build items + City Sizes...
Instead, either one of them would work.
I think that it's easier to capture the latter, as well as easier for our brains to compare the achieved value (how much value does City Size 3 + 5 Food have? it's hard to tell... but knowing when we hit City Size 3 is helpful to know).
So, I'll work on capturing:
- Turn number that each tech was researched
- Turn number that each build item was completed*
- Turn number that a City's Size was increased and what Size it is now
- Turn number that a City's Size decreased (say, due to whipping) and what Size it is now
- The exact squares that got worked on which turns, so that we can reproduce things
- Science Slider changes, in the case of settling a second City
I'll assume that we "live in a vacuum" and thus can't Open Borders with any AI that we happen to meet, should the test get that far in the tech tree.
Can you think of any important info that I'd be missing?
* If we switch build items before a build item is completed, we might as well record down the number of Hammers invested in the original build item, like, "10/75 H in the Barracks" or something to that effect.
Instead, either one of them would work.
I think that it's easier to capture the latter, as well as easier for our brains to compare the achieved value (how much value does City Size 3 + 5 Food have? it's hard to tell... but knowing when we hit City Size 3 is helpful to know).
So, I'll work on capturing:
- Turn number that each tech was researched
- Turn number that each build item was completed*
- Turn number that a City's Size was increased and what Size it is now
- Turn number that a City's Size decreased (say, due to whipping) and what Size it is now
- The exact squares that got worked on which turns, so that we can reproduce things
- Science Slider changes, in the case of settling a second City
I'll assume that we "live in a vacuum" and thus can't Open Borders with any AI that we happen to meet, should the test get that far in the tech tree.
Can you think of any important info that I'd be missing?
* If we switch build items before a build item is completed, we might as well record down the number of Hammers invested in the original build item, like, "10/75 H in the Barracks" or something to that effect.
Dhoomstriker
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Okay, here's my first crack at setting-up a spreadsheet. Certainly, it can be improved upon, but at least it demonstrates my idea and we can see what people think of it.
So far, I've only logged one partially-completed test with the spreadsheet. I'll upload the latest saved game that corresponds to this test (the one in this spreadsheet). I kind of got "stuck" in terms of having too many options of what to do next, so I stopped here. I played it as far as Turn 58, 2550 BC.
Feel free to come up with a better layout for the info in the spreadsheet. I was thinking of using 1 "sheet" per test run, but that idea is flexible, too.
EDIT: It's an Excel spreadsheet contained within a .zip file, since you apparently can't upload .xls files.
So far, I've only logged one partially-completed test with the spreadsheet. I'll upload the latest saved game that corresponds to this test (the one in this spreadsheet). I kind of got "stuck" in terms of having too many options of what to do next, so I stopped here. I played it as far as Turn 58, 2550 BC.
Feel free to come up with a better layout for the info in the spreadsheet. I was thinking of using 1 "sheet" per test run, but that idea is flexible, too.
EDIT: It's an Excel spreadsheet contained within a .zip file, since you apparently can't upload .xls files.
The problem with SIP is that in terms of production it is relatively weak, which unless you are attempting a tech beeline like the CS sling is normally more of a problem than it being weaker in beakers as it cripples your expansion.
I have attached a couple of test saves for settling on the plains hill. Once you take account of the fact that you can do a 3 pop whip for a settler in the 2550BC save next turn, we are significantly ahead in terms of production compared to Dhoomstrikers save, with a larger city as well.
I have attached a couple of test saves for settling on the plains hill. Once you take account of the fact that you can do a 3 pop whip for a settler in the 2550BC save next turn, we are significantly ahead in terms of production compared to Dhoomstrikers save, with a larger city as well.
LowtherCastle
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By the way, if anyone form OSS is planning to use the flying camera trick or any other known bug that's not within the spirit of good gamesmanship, then I'm out of here.
...rant deleted...
EDIT: Okay, given AlanH's argument that the delivred game is what it is, I suppose I won't go against the flow. I can see that rolo1 has been using the flying camera for a long time in SGs and it wasn't an issue. If other teams are going to use these gadgets, guess we can too.
LowtherCastle
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Power = 14 =
6 archers
6 archery
2 hunting
GNP = 24 =
4 espionage
10 culture = 2 + 6(GLH) + 2(creative)
10 beakers
It's possible that some leader settled on a 2h tile and is working a coastal tile instead of being creative, but I doubt it.
JUdging from the demographic data, it looks to me like Willem van Oranje has the GLH. If so, he'll research like crazy, REX, build dikes eventually...
EDIT: Oops! Forgot one detail: ANy AI researching a prereq tech would also have 24 GNP for the +2b. Back to the drawing board...The best info we have, then is the power score. That definitely rules out certain EU leaders.
-----------------
Note: Whoever plays the next turn should post the save so we can compare T0 and T1 demographic data.
6 archers
6 archery
2 hunting
GNP = 24 =
4 espionage
10 culture = 2 + 6(GLH) + 2(creative)
10 beakers
It's possible that some leader settled on a 2h tile and is working a coastal tile instead of being creative, but I doubt it.
JUdging from the demographic data, it looks to me like Willem van Oranje has the GLH. If so, he'll research like crazy, REX, build dikes eventually...
EDIT: Oops! Forgot one detail: ANy AI researching a prereq tech would also have 24 GNP for the +2b. Back to the drawing board...The best info we have, then is the power score. That definitely rules out certain EU leaders.
-----------------
Note: Whoever plays the next turn should post the save so we can compare T0 and T1 demographic data.
Don't remember, but the general rule would be:
corn > clam > GH > grass forest > unimproved tiles.
Dhoomstriker
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Does anyone have any general rule for building a Work Boat?
For example, pre-Bronze-Working, is it better to work a 2 Food + 2 Commerce Unnetted Clam square or a 3 Hammer Plains Hills Forest square?
Post-Bronze-Working (i.e. with access to Slavery), which is better?
Or, am I asking one of those "it depends" kind of questions?
For example, pre-Bronze-Working, is it better to work a 2 Food + 2 Commerce Unnetted Clam square or a 3 Hammer Plains Hills Forest square?
Post-Bronze-Working (i.e. with access to Slavery), which is better?
Or, am I asking one of those "it depends" kind of questions?
Mitchum
Deity
@Dhoomstriker
That's a hard question to answer. When I was playing, I was focused on food and commerce/science since most of my hammers were from the whip. I think I worked a Grassland Forest a few turns to synchronize growth and finishing a work boat, but in general, I worked unimproved corn -> unimproved clam until I was able to whip the workboat. I don't know if this is the best, but it's what I did and probably why my save is ahead in research...
That's a hard question to answer. When I was playing, I was focused on food and commerce/science since most of my hammers were from the whip. I think I worked a Grassland Forest a few turns to synchronize growth and finishing a work boat, but in general, I worked unimproved corn -> unimproved clam until I was able to whip the workboat. I don't know if this is the best, but it's what I did and probably why my save is ahead in research...
Guys, I'm going out of town for a week tonight, w/o internet access.
I still prefer PH-Worker, but I'm hardly 100%. So, don't even bother counting it as a vote really. Trust the group to make the best decision.
I still prefer PH-Worker, but I'm hardly 100%. So, don't even bother counting it as a vote really. Trust the group to make the best decision.
LowtherCastle
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bbp, care to give any response on this issue of using these "bugs" before you leave?
It seems the common SG attitude on it is, Use them. I think this particular scenario potentially gives a huge advantage to teams using them.
My opinion is, let's use them. If for no other reason, to show people that they CAN make a difference. In other words, I just tested it on your test save. In a matter of about a half hour, I can easily and probably 100% correctly map out the entire 25x34 rectangle we start with (without resource tiles of course). This will clearly tell us whether we should send out our exploring wbs sooner or later. Even if we're not isolated, we may have a lot of islands to expore to determine what resources are available to us. If we're isolated, then we know we go for the astro beeline.
We'll also know how many hills we'll have available to us for production.
It seems the common SG attitude on it is, Use them. I think this particular scenario potentially gives a huge advantage to teams using them.
My opinion is, let's use them. If for no other reason, to show people that they CAN make a difference. In other words, I just tested it on your test save. In a matter of about a half hour, I can easily and probably 100% correctly map out the entire 25x34 rectangle we start with (without resource tiles of course). This will clearly tell us whether we should send out our exploring wbs sooner or later. Even if we're not isolated, we may have a lot of islands to expore to determine what resources are available to us. If we're isolated, then we know we go for the astro beeline.
We'll also know how many hills we'll have available to us for production.
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