SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

I also think that playing until the Oracle is built in one go would be taking things a bit too fast.

I think the pigs/fish city can afford to delay improving the pigs. Losing Confunicism would set us back far more than not being able to work the pigs for 15 turns. If getting the pigs up and running so quickly is that important I would still favour Orcaling philosophy as it would allow us to get both AH before pigs/fish needed it and an earlier COL.
 
Pre-Play-Plan

Note: I'm writing this PPP through to the Oracle completion. My actual turnset can be a subset of that, of course, because that's a lot of turns, including the null set... :)

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW
Research: myst-masonry-meditation-priesthood-writing-0%(AH)
Build the Oracle in Marble City and slingshot Metal Casting.
Settle Gold City, Marble City, and Stone City.
Build a second worker to connect the stone resource.
Prepare Gold to spawn a GS.
Prepare Paris to whip a forge.
BUILD QUEUE
Paris: lh(partial)-settler3-lh-wb5-monu(part)-wkr2(part)-set4(part)-monu(part)-set4-wkr2-monu-wb6
Gold: gran-lh-lib(part)
Marble: lh(part)-Oracle(part)-lh-ORacle
Stone: monu(part)​
UNIT MOVES
wbE: find Vickie-view inside culture as much as possible-explore eastward
CONDITIONAL:
1. wbW: mvW,
...if no new land access, mvW,
......if no new land access, wbW goes back to net fish, wbSW explores
...else wbW explores, wbSW mvs 2SW, then nets fish.
2. Exploring wb tries to meet AIs asap and generally explore (south)westward I will preferably not cut corners in one direction as long as there appears to be a chance this is a dead end. Probably to the north because we're probably headed SW if anywhere.
-----------------
New Gold wb nets clams
WORKER ACTIONS
wkr1: mn gold-rd gold-mv to Goldforest-chop-mv to MarbleforestN-chop-mv to MarbleForestSW-chop-mv toward Stone
wkr2: mv to stone-quarry stone(part)
CITY MM
Paris:
Time Marble settler so wkr1 chops the Gold forest asap Dhoom can optimize this...
Build monument only if needed Someone needs to verify this
Pre-build wkr2 to complete immediately after Stone settler
Gold:
1pop granary Optimization is some balance between whipping asap to minimze :mad: later, maximizing food in granary, and working the gold tile. :crazyeye:
1pop lh I think best is: with max OF into library so it can be 2popped asap, to start spawning GS asap. +5:) is a short-term problem here that I haven't resolved.
work coastal rather than cottage (MM PITA) Will we run CS enough to make a wkshp useful? Will working coastal rather than cottage save us a turn on CoL?
Marble:
build lh to (2t) to completion
build Oracle with chops
1pop lh with max OF into Oracle, timed to allow writing completion 2nd citizen may need to work the coast for a turn or two
Stone:
Share Paris mine as appropriate​
DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Sign OBs with any AI possible
Trade resources if possible
Tell Vickie she needs French (or Irish) underarm​
SEQUENCE
As per spreadsheet.​
STOP CRITERIA
Meet new AIs
Find significant resources
Stonehenge or GW completed
Explorer dead-ends
shtf​
OTHERS
Research: 0% as per spreadsheet, to take advantage of upcoming libs, etc.
Civic change: None
Religion change: None
Cities settled: GOld+Marble+Stone
Housekeeping:
Screenshots of the demo screen, largest cities, resolutions (showing total pop)
 
Okay, I realized I had moved the westermost wb 1 tile already, making it complicated to specify in teh PPP the western exploration plans. But their moves for T72 were obvious, so I made those moves and uploaded the new save to the server.

We see no new culture by clicking on the :culture: icon.
Spoiler :
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Okay, I realized I had moved the westermost wb 1 tile already, making it complicated to specify in teh PPP the western exploration plans. But their moves for T72 were obvious, so I made those moves and uploaded the new save to the server.
Just by duplicating those moves in the test game, it looks like we will have PRECISELY enough movement points with the Work Boat closest to the Dye Resource to be able to get back to the Fish. Way to cut it close! ;) So, no more detours with that Work Boat or else it will cost us 3 Food!


We see no new culture by clicking on the :culture: icon.
You lost me... where is this Culture icon?


Also, do you have any how to tell if Vicky knows a tech like Masonry or Meditation? It seems that, unlike Writing, we can't get any bonus to Research for her knowing Mysticism, so it doesn't really matter if she knows it.

For Mysticism, at most, I'll be able to save you 1 Commerce on the turn that we learn Mysticism, should Vicky know Mysticism, since we'd then have the potential for the game to steal a Flask that would have otherwise overflowed had she not known the tech and had the programmers done a better job of overflow calculations.


The only way that I know how to tell whether she knows a tech would be to spend 1 turn of researching said tech (say, Masonry) with a Science Slider value that would net you +1 Flask if she knew the tech but wouldn't net you that extra Flask if she didn't know it. Unfortunately, the idea Science Slider value could easily need to be altered based on whether or not she knows Masonry... although it theoretically might again not matter since our Commerce level is low... but, in combination with our intrinsic +40% bonus, we *might* be able to meet a breakpoint with her also knowing the tech... I'm looking into it and don't know yet.
 
Nice work on the PPP! You found some great ways of summarizing and including a lot of relevant info in a very consice and readable format! As usual, I do have a few questions, as well as some things that I'll need to test.


including the null set
What's the null set? The turns that you have already played before this PPP?


writing-0%(AH)
It might be good to pause play on the turn that you learn Writing, even with a 0% Science slider, just to avoid overflow Flasks and the 1-Flask-per-turn going into a tech that we might later decide not to research immediately.


Paris: lh(partial)-settler3-lh...
Okay, I guess that I will have to run a test for Settler 3 before Lighthouse and compare it to the other approaches of getting a Lighthouse first... which just means adding one more scenario to a previous message... not too big of a deal.


Gold:...
1pop granary Optimization is some balance between whipping asap to minimze :mad: later, maximizing food in granary, and working the gold tile. :crazyeye:
Okay, I'll probably just take your word for it that you have the right timing here. I.e. if I were to find out that we could save a bit of Food by whipping a turn or two later, then it might not help us if we have additional Unhappiness that prevents us from, say, running a Scientist Specialist later.


Marble: lh(part)-Oracle(part)
wkr1: mn gold-rd gold-mv to Goldforest-chop-mv to MarbleforestN-chop-mv to MarbleForestSW-chop-mv toward Stone
Okay, that sounds better than the Worker actions that I thought we would have to use. Since I didn't know which Forest was the "Gold Forest," I hadn't been Chopping the Gold Forest in my tests and therefore had the Worker pre-Chopping a Forest for The Oracle... but then it had to leave that Forest, since we wouldn't have had Priesthood + Masonry in time for the first Forest Chop (i.e. there would not have been an Oracle or if there were one by going for Priesthood first, there wouldn't have been a Marble bonus on the Forest Chop). It sounds like you plan to have both of these techs in time for the Forest to be Chopped, unless the Worker just sits around waiting for some turns after pre-Chopping the "MarbleforestN"?


1pop lh I think best is: with max OF into library so it can be 2popped asap, to start spawning GS asap. +5:) is a short-term problem here that I haven't resolved.
Hmmm, would it possibly make sense to whip a Monument instead of a Lighthouse? Less Food but the same Hammer overflow into a Library while getting a Happiness point...
Certainly, without a Lighthouse, it would take longer to grow into Unhappiness... ;) although, of course, it would take longer to grow, period. :D

Would we be able to squeeze out a Warrior from Paris at some point in order to help out Happiness issues in Gold City? It looks like you're building a Warrior in Gold City after whipping the Library, but if we have a Happiness issue before then, then I suppose that a Paris-built Warrior might help out??

I haven't really encountered this problem yet since I had a different approach for Gold City whenever I tested (starting with not getting the Gold Forest Chop), so I'm not exactly certain what the problem is at this point or for how long it lasts.


work coastal rather than cottage (MM PITA)
Sorry for causing you that headache! I'm the one who built the Cottage, after all... :mischief:

Still, if it's a micromanagement nightmare, then maybe the easiest option is to just work that Cottage in favour of a Coast at every opportunity that we will get! :lol: :hide:


Time Marble settler so wkr1 chops the Gold forest asap Dhoom can optimize this...
I hadn't ever been Chopping the Gold Forest (I only just found out about an hour ago what you guys have meant all this time by the Gold Forest--the southern Plains Forest of the two Forests on the island that only seems to have a Crab for a Food source, located NE + E + E of Gold City), so I'm not sure what you mean here. Maybe you are saying that if we settle Marble City too early, it will get the Forest Chop instead of Gold City? *goes to check* No, that guess of mine is wrong, since Marble City is too far away to steal the Forest Chop.

Hmmm, maybe you mean don't settle Marble City until our Worker is free? That can't be it, either, since we don't need the Worker to improve a square for Marble City, just to Chop Forests for it.

Okay, I give up. What am I supposed to optimize for this point?


Sign OBs with any AI possible
There is the remote possibility, should we meet multiple AIs, that we could run up against one AI asking us to stop trading with another AI, should we take such a liberal foreign policy.

Of course, if we don't yet have enough Foreign Trade Routes for all of our Cities, we might as well just immediately Open Borders with the first AI or AIs that will let us do so (come on Vicky, you know that you want to Research Writing! ;)). But, once we have enough Foreign Trade Routes for all of our Cities, I would suggest that we wait until we see what the Diplo situation is before spamming any further Open Borders agreements.

I would be particularly cautious of Opening Borders with any AI that is running a State Religion, as such an AI is likely to be hated early on by another AI.


Tell Vickie she needs French (or Irish) underarm
I don't follow you... perhaps you told a joke that went right over my head? It is supposed to be some kind of a joke, right?


STOP CRITERIA
Stonehenge or GW completed
Or, should The Oracle get completed by an AI, *shudder*. :shifty: You won't REALLY quit the team if we get beaten to The Oracle, will you? :run:
 
I may be wrong, but I think that the PPP spreadsheet is missing a Galley movement.

In particular, on Turn 96, 1600 BC, Worker 2 is getting on the Galley when it is 1S of Paries' SE GH Mine. On this turn, I think that the Galley should move 1s (which is not mentioned in the spreadsheet). On the following turn, the claim is made that Worker 2 lands on the Stone, which would support this point.

EDIT: I removed the rest of the text about Turn 97, since I wasn't accounting for the Cultural Borders that would exist on that turn.
 
You lost me... where is this Culture icon?
When you zoom out, it appears. Then you can view the "entire" globe in terms of the players' culture. This is handy for fog-gazing culture in a fogged tile adjacent to a defogged tile. I do this every turn when exploring for new AIs.


Also, do you have any how to tell if Vicky knows a tech like Masonry or Meditation? It seems that, unlike Writing, we can't get any bonus to Research for her knowing Mysticism, so it doesn't really matter if she knows it.
SHould be relatively easy once we settle GOld, because then we hav a lot of commerce to manipulate. I've attached a spreadsheet I made in SG12 (should be excel format too). You change our GNP, coin by coin, and check the Demo screen GNP versus the spreadsheet, for the appropriate research multiplier (1, 1.2X, 1.4X). The spreadsheet should tell you if we're getting an extra coin at some point in the table.

Nice work on the PPP! You found some great ways of summarizing and including a lot of relevant info in a very consice and readable format!
THis is Erkon's template, located in the first post of MW SGs.


What's the null set?
Another name for the empty set = 0 turns... ;)

It might be good to pause play on the turn that you learn Writing, even with a 0% Science slider, just to avoid overflow Flasks and the 1-Flask-per-turn going into a tech that we might later decide not to research immediately.
Whatever. I intend to MM for ~0 beaker OF on writing anyway.

Okay, I guess that I will have to run a test for Settler 3 before Lighthouse and compare it to the other approaches of getting a Lighthouse first... which just means adding one more scenario to a previous message... not too big of a deal.
Right.


It sounds like you plan to have both of these techs in time for the Forest to be Chopped, unless the Worker just sits around waiting for some turns after pre-Chopping the "MarbleforestN"?
Yup.



Hmmm, would it possibly make sense to whip a Monument instead of a Lighthouse? Less Food but the same Hammer overflow into a Library while getting a Happiness point...
Certainly, without a Lighthouse, it would take longer to grow into Unhappiness... ;) although, of course, it would take longer to grow, period. :D
Interestingly idea. It might work.

Would we be able to squeeze out a Warrior from Paris at some point in order to help out Happiness issues in Gold City? It looks like you're building a Warrior in Gold City after whipping the Library, but if we have a Happiness issue before then, then I suppose that a Paris-built Warrior might help out??
Perhaps.

Maybe you are saying that if we settle Marble City too early, it will get the Forest Chop instead of Gold City? ...yada yada yada... Okay, I give up. What am I supposed to optimize for this point?
The question is, how late can Paris complete the settler and the galley still arrive at Gold the turn the wkr is ready to board? Poprushing the settler with only 15h is too soon. So the question is, do we have time to complete the lh or not? If not, how many hammers to put into the settler before whipping? It's a simple test, I just haven't done it yet.



There is the remote possibility, should we meet multiple AIs, that we could run up against one AI asking us to stop trading with another AI, should we take such a liberal foreign policy....
To me, the priority is OBs for further exploration.


I don't follow you... perhaps you told a joke that went right over my head? It is supposed to be some kind of a joke, right?
Joke. ;)
I may be wrong, but I think that the PPP spreadsheet is missing a Galley movement.
You're right. :) I actually wasn't all that careful when I did the spreadsheet. It started out as a way for me to remember what I was testing. When I liked it, I decided to just call it a first draft of a PPP. There are likely to be some other omissions as well. Hopefully, nothing that can't be figured out on the spot.
 

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OB's are worth picking up. We don't really care about what the AI thinks of us in this game as they will likely be pushing up daisies by the time they are a realistic threat.
 
Okay, I guess that I will have to run a test for Settler 3 before Lighthouse and compare it to the other approaches of getting a Lighthouse first... which just means adding one more scenario to a previous message... not too big of a deal.
Alright, I have done so. I have updated the results in message #825. The text that I added is coloured in red-coloured text.

I have labelled the current PPP's approach for early micromanagement in Paris as "Scenario G)" in that message.

Out of the 6 possible Scenarios, Scenario G) is the second worst one. :eek:

We do not even gain any other benefit by following Scenario G), such as an earlier Settler 3, since the current incarnation of the PPP [i.e. Scenario G)] has us whipping Settler 3 on the exact same turn that any of the other Scenarios could possibly whip Settler 3 (Turn 80).

So, can we pretty please update the PPP's spreadsheet? Note that I don't really care if you only make these updates locally for now and don't upload the updated spreadsheet until we are done making suggested changes versus whether you want to upload a new spreadsheet after each update is made--all that I ask is that the updates actually get made to the spreadsheet at some point or that if a particular change won't be made, a rebuttable be made explaining why you don't want to make the change.


Besides, I thought that you had already planned to follow Scenario C)'s approach... I guess doing so just got forgotten as a minor detail when you were demonstrating your awesome macromanagement of the turnset and playing it out so far. In particular, here are the messages why I thought that we'd be following Scenario C) (i.e. switch the Corn to the GH Mine on Turn 74):

Actually, Dhoom, you have to do it all over again... :) I was switching a clam to gh on T74... :lol:

I never even tried corn instead of clam. Not sure why, but either I didn't thnk of it or I automatically preferred 1:food: to 2:commerce:. Nice of you to crunch the number though.

@Dhoom
1. I'd swap the corn with the mine, I think.



Note that LC asked me to also figure out which turn will be ideal for whipping Settler 3, which I will look into next. However, I plan to follow Scenario C)'s path rather than Scenario G)'s path when checking out the possibility of switching the turn to whip Settler 3 from Turn 80 to a different turn. Stay tuned.
 
:lol: You're funny, Dhoom. :) Thanks for testing. The test that I was running, when I came up with the PPP, was to see about getting the GS in GOld faster. The previous test I had poprushed set3 at 15h, so this one I did the next turn. It was never considered to be ideal. It was just a way of seeing when the galley got there. I'm not looking for the ideal situation for that specific test (T80), I'm looking for optimal production based on the worker not waiting on the gold mine (which you're testing now).

I'm thankful you're testing this, because I'm burnt out and I'm just waiting for the go-ahead or to pass the turnset back to Ras or on to someone else. Starting next Wednesday, I'm gone for two weeks. :)
 
Dhoom, if you're feeling spritely and feel like it, it would be gret if you could also test this idea of yours:
Hmmm, would it possibly make sense to whip a Monument instead of a Lighthouse? Less Food but the same Hammer overflow into a Library while getting a Happiness point...
Certainly, without a Lighthouse, it would take longer to grow into Unhappiness... although, of course, it would take longer to grow, period.​
It's probably significantly less food, and even maybe less coins. THe question is, does it get us the GS sooner.
 
I think mdy is the only one who's voiced an objection to your current PPP? If he doesn't chime in within a day or two, I'd go ahead and play.
 
Well, I would hope we can all come to some agreement. I don't really care for running against mdy's better judgment.
 
The main concern I have with the current plan is that it delays COL to research AH. Given that the loss of Confunicism would be a very significant setback I am not inclined to take this risk. We would also reduce the risk of religion not spreading where we want it to in time. The only benefits AH has is that it allows us to get pigs growing quicker, but my earlier tests indicate that we can get it up to speed before we need to, so I don't think it is worth risking Confunicism for. We might also get a horses tile but I think this is highly unlikely.

I am uncertain whether we need the monument in the capital, but someone could probably check this fairly quickly (unfortunately I am too busy to do anything like this till the weekend.)

If LC's plan was modified to go writing-COL, and the monument issue was resolved I would fully support it.

It's probably significantly less food, and even maybe less coins. THe question is, does it get us the GS sooner.

With the current plan I don't think speeding up the GS by a few turns would make any difference (unless we fail to get Confunicism in which case it would be very important.) Ideally we want gold city to be size 9 when we build the pyramids, if delaying the lighthouse would jepodise this then I think it would be a mistake, assuming we can get Confunicism of course.
 
Okay. The decision on AH is definitely beyond the scope of my turnset. I'll re-run the test tomorrow focussing on the monument in Paris, to see what happens without it. Then when Dhoom finishes his testing, I guess we'lll be good to go.
 
Note that LC asked me to also figure out which turn will be ideal for whipping Settler 3, which I will look into next.
Alright, so I was able to obtain the results, but analysing them isn't going to be incredibly straight-forward.

The PPP currently has the Galley taking the "round-about route" in order to pick up the Worker and drop it off by the NE + E + E PFor (aka the Gold Forest). If we use an economy of movement with the Galley, we can actually delay Settler 3 by up to 2 turns.

So, we can whip Settler 3 on any of Turns 80, 81, or 82.

Each turn of delay, on the surface, gives us an extra 17 overflow Hammers. But it's unfortunately not that simple.

Each turn of delay also means that we will settle Marble City a turn later. Therefore, we will get 3 less base Hammers in the Lighthouse, which translates to 3 less base Hammers that will get overflowed into The Oracle at a later date.

In addition, we pay 2 more Gold in Maintenance per turn upon settling Marble City, but we gain 3 Commerce (one for the City centre plus 2 for the Trade Route)... and the Trade Route "counts" even on the turn that the City is settled.

But then you have to factor in some other interesting results: when Paris is at Size 6 at the same time that Marble City exists (and with Gold City remaining at Size 2 for this time period), we pay 1 extra Gold in Maintenance.

Then there's the fact that by whipping on Turn 82, we will actually complete our Monument before starting on Settler 4, which means that when we are at City Size 6, our 6th population point can work a Coast for +2 Commerce (the Hammers invested into the Settler will remain the same, due to the way that you get "credited" for Unhappy people's Food while building a Setter and due to the fact that working the Coast is "Food neutral," meaning that our Food getting converted into Hammers is essentially "Hammer neutral") or we could work a Cottage (come on, you know that you want to! ;)) for +1 Commerce and +1 turn of Cottage growth.

However, it won't be long for our Unhappiness wears off, but there is a tiny bit of gain Commerce-wise by getting that Monument earlier.

Then, we need to throw in the fact that delaying the Settler simply puts more Hammers into the Monument sooner.

It looks like, after building Settler 4, we are trying to overflow some Hammers into Worker 2. Well, assuming that we whip Settler 4 at the same time in each Scenario (where the three Scenarios are essentially "Whip on Turn 80," "Whip on Turn 81," and "Whip on Turn 82"), then what we've done is moved the overflow Hammers from Worker 2 and put them into our Monument.

So, essentially, Worker 2 will come out slower (I haven't tested how much slower, but it's probably at least 1 turn slower and possibly 2 turns slower by whipping on Turn 82).

Now, what I did not test, and what we should probably do, is that if we plan to whip on either Turn 80 or Turn 81, meaning that we won't complete the Monument before we complete Settler 4, then we should probably start building Settler 4 when we're still at City Size 5 (say, 1 turn before growing), so that we don't lose that 1 Gold per turn of Maintenance when Paris grows to an unhappy Size 6.

As I said above, if we were to whip on Turn 82, then we'd have the Monument, so growing to Size 6 before starting on Settler 4, in that case, would let us work a Coast or a Cottage, since the Monument would erase the Unhappiness.


Now, it should be noted that without the Monument, we will lose 1 Whipping Unhappiness on Turn 90. Okay, we'll lose that Whipping Unhappiness if we have the Monument, too, but having the Monument makes us have 7 Happiness... which, of course, introduces another wrinkle: should we consider the possibility of growing to Size 7? I'm going to tend to say "no, probably not," since we only have 1 more Coast square to work instead of, say, another Mine, and then you have to factor in the fact that growing to Size 7 costs more Food than growing to a smaller City Size would. But the point really is that in all 3 Scenarios, we'll be able to work 6 squares at City Size 6 on Turn 90.

Okay, so here are some numbers on Turn 90. Turn 90 is a good comparison point because all 3 Scenarios will have 6 Happy people on this turn, so the "Turn 82 whip" scenario will stop "gaining" extra Commerce on this turn.

Turn 90 numbers:
A) Turn 80 whip: 24 F, 71 H (51 H in Settler 4, 20 H in the Monument), 0 extra Gold*, 21 base Hammers in Marble City's Lighthouse
B) Turn 81 whip: 24 F, 71 H (34 H in Settler 4, 37 H in the Monument), 0 extra Gold, 18 base Hammers in Marble City's Lighthouse
C) Turn 82 whip: 24 F, 71 H (17 H in Settler 4, 45 H in the Monument--i.e. it is built, 9 H in another Work Boat (or it could be put into a Warrior or a Galley or whatever), 2 extra Gold, 15 base Hammers in Marble City's Lighthouse

* Note that I set the Science Slider to 0% to avoid having bonus Flasks potentially messing up the comparison. So, I'm just comparing the relative values of Gold obtained, which represents the combination of Maintenance plus Commerce.


What's really neat is that when I took a snapshot of the numbers on previous turns, such as on Turn 85, "Turn 82 whip" was 1 extra Gold BEHIND "Turn 81 whip," and was 2 extra gold BEHIND "Turn 80 whip," but then later caught up and passed them both.

The catching-up part is due to Paris being larger (Size 6) when Marble City did not exist and Paris being smaller (Size 5 or smaller) when Marble City did exist. The extra bit comes from that 1 additional turn of Happiness at City Size 6 due to having the Monument early.

Okay, so on paper, Scenario C) looks good, in that we get the most total inputs (2 extra Gold).

However, we also have placed our Hammers in a Monument and 9 Hammers in a Work Boat/Warrior/Galley instead of in Worker 2. That early Monument is essentially only worth 2 Commerce.


I'm not quite sure what's happening on Turn 90 and afterwards, but it looks like we're staying at City Size 6 for a while while we manually build Settler 4 and/or Worker 2. I'm not sure why we'd still build Settler 4 on Turn 90, as the PPP suggests, because doing so means that instead of having Settler 4 be a 3-pop-whip with near-maximum overflow Hammers, we turn it into a 2-pop-whip with very few overflow Hammers.


What it comes down to, though, is that settling Marble City sooner does a few things for us:
a) Gets us more Hammers in Marble City's Lighthouse, which means more Hammers in The Oracle, which possibly translates into an earlier Oracle date (say, just guessing here, 1 turn saved on The Oracle for every 2 turns of Marble City existing)
AND
b) Gets us more Commerce. Now, yes, the numbers above have Scenario C) "catching up" and then "coming out ahead." However, if I played a bit more smartly (now that I know about the whole "grow Paris to City Size 6 and pay +1 Gold of Maintenance" issue), I could have spent more time at City Size 5 while building Settler 4 and saved, feasibly, 1 Gold per turn. That savings for 2 turns for the "Turn 80 whip" scenario would then equal the 2 Commerce that we gain by having the earlier Monument in the "Turn 82 whip" scenario. So, essentially, I think that I'll be able to match "Turn 82 whip"'s Commerce with a slightly smarter "Turn 80 whip" approach
AND
c) Allows us to store more Hammers into Settler 4, which would overflow into the build item that we want the Hammers to go into (Worker 2), getting us a faster Worker 2 instead of a faster Monument plus partial Work Boat/Warrior/Galley


So, I think that a "Turn 80 whip" approach will be best, even if it does fall behind by 2 Commerce, while I think that I should even be able to save that 2 Commerce so that it won't fall behind at all (I'll have to try and test for that possibility next).


Now, what's even more interesting is that we will have 20 Hammers invested into a Monument with the "Turn 80 whip" scenario (not quite enough for a 22 H Warrior) but will have 37 H with the "Turn 81 whip" scenario. So, is it worth delaying Worker 2 for what will probably be a 1-turn-delay in order to get out another Warrior?

The answer is probably "no, we don't need that Warrior so soon." But, we could go with a "Turn 80 whip" approach and then, after completing the Monument, sneak in a Warrior before the Work Boat, if doing so will help out Gold City more than getting a faster Work Boat would help any City. If I am not mistaken, the PPP has us starting on a Work Boat with 0 Hammers invested into it on Turn 97 and only has us completing this Work Boat later... so, there might be a chance to fit in a Warrior instead. Anyway, I'm not sure if we really need a Warrior, but since I highly doubt that we will need that Warrior immediately, I'm going to push for the "Turn 80 whip" scenario.


Okay, since I can do so, I will just do the testing of the "Turn 80 whip" scenario where we delay growth to Size 6. Hmmm, it looks like there are actually THREE turns where I can save 1 Gold of Maintenance, so we end up saving even more Gold than Scenario C). I'll call this scenario "Scenaio D)":
D) Turn 80 whip -> Turn 86 build Settler 4 -> Turn 89 build the Monument (so that we can grow to City Size 6 in 1 turn): 24 F, 71 H (51 H in Settler 4, 20 H in the Monument), 3 extra Gold, 21 base Hammers in Marble City's Lighthouse

Okay, yes, I was right: we have a clear winner here with Scenario D). It's a bit more micro-management intensive, but that's one of LC's specialties, so I trust him to be able to execute this minor gain in efficiency.
 
Did anybody understand that? :joke:

Great, Dhoom! Thanks. Now, to incorporate mdy's idea of skipping the monument altogether, I have an idea that you might test or I will tomorrow. Putting more OF into the worker (from the set3 whip), thus allowing us to grow back to pop5, pre-build the settler, pop6 and whip the settler and finish the wkr sooner. Just a thought. I'm still not sure how Paris does with less happiness, especially if I'm pushing forward the whipping even more.
 
Okay, now I think I know what's going on Turn 90.

The PPP suggests that we will be building Settler 4 on Turn 90, before switching to Worker 2 on Turn 91.

In my current implementation, building Settler 4 on Turn 90 would actually turn it from a 3-pop-whip to a 2-pop-whip. However, the PPP definitely wants us to 3-pop-whip Settler 4, as per Turn 94.

So, what's happening is that we're seeing the result of the efficiency gain by going with Scenario C) over Scenario G) from message #825. I just realized now that I also refered to Scenarios by letters in my last message, which could be a bit confusing... I'll try and switch up the naming scheme in the future so that we don't have this potential confusion.

Anyway, here's where we're seeing that we're saving at least a partial turn from using Scenario C) over Scenario G), so we can start to build Worker 2 as per Turn 90. I say "partial turn" because it's not quite a full turn's worth of Hammers, and thus the overflow Hammers from Settler 4 may not be as much due to this change in timing, which thus might or might not translate into a different timing for Worker 2 (probably not) but may translate into a build item coming a bit earlier in the future.


I'd like to know the reasoning behind what we're doing with Worker 2 and Settler 4, though, so that I can see if it will still be optimized. For example, is the intention to "build Worker 2 until it has sufficient Hammers invested in it that, upon whipping Settler 4, Worker 2 will be completed within a single turn"?

That situation looks to be the case, but since we're also completing the Monument on the turn after completing Worker 2, what might really be happening is "put as many Hammers as possible into Worker 2, such that it will be within 1 turn of completion, then whip Settler 4 such that Worker 2 will be completed and will also overflow sufficient Hammers into the Monument such that the Monument will be completed within 1 turn."

There may or may not be a difference between these approaches, so I'd just like to try and stick to the spirit of the PPP as closely as possible, but to do so, I need to know the reasoning behind what we're trying to do with the timing of completing Worker 2 and the Monument.

Maybe it's even something as simple as "I kept manually building Worker 2 because the Galley was busy ferrying Worker 1 around."


As for whether or not we will need the Monument, I haven't made it that far yet, but assuming that we won't need the Happiness, then a better question might be: if we had a Work Boat instead, would we have a use for said Work Boat? Or, if we had 2 Warriors instead, would we prefer to have them?

Obviously, it if turns out that the extra Happiness does play a factor, we'll get the Monument.

But, if we don't need the extra Happiness immediately, do we need an additional Work Boat or 2 additional Warriors (or even just 1 Warriror and a partial Monument) even more than we need the Monument? I.e. Should we just build the Monument anyway, for a possible use in the future?

I can't answer the question yet until I proceed further in the turnset, which I won't do until I find out which approach was being kept in mind during the completion of Worker 2.
 
is the intention to "build Worker 2 until it has sufficient Hammers invested in it that, upon whipping Settler 4, Worker 2 will be completed within a single turn"?

a better question might be: if we had a Work Boat instead, would we have a use for said Work Boat? Or, if we had 2 Warriors instead, would we prefer to have them?
I intentionally build the wkr immediately after teh settler because the galley is available to transport it to the stone, plus I want the stone connected asap to start flowing OF into the Pyramids.

If we can avoid building the monument or one of the PPP-scheduled wbs, we can complete the Pyramids something like 8t sooner. We want to build as little extraneous garbage in Paris as possible. 3popping settlers speeds up the Pyramids. Everything else slows it down (except wkrs, which we don't need).
 
However, you don't intend to "use up" a whipping action on the Worker, right? So, if I understand things correctly, the idea is that we will be 3-pop-whipping Settlers 3 and 4 and will see what we can do about putting some overflow Hammers from both build items into Worker 2.

Of course, putting Settler 3's overflow Hammers into Worker 2 might have a minor cost like growing 1 turn sooner, which may mean getting less Hammers and/or Commerce overall, so we'll have to look into that possibility and weigh it as a factor, particularly since it looks like we're going to be whipping Settler 3 with relatively few overflow Hammers (from a rough estimate, it looks like it would be 16 Hammers of overflow).
 
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