SGOTM 13 - Spooks

Paul#42 · Mar 21, 2008

played five turns of my set and give you a couple of hours to weight in.

We are ready to do another G&R, the aim is to get currency for it.
The Mongols have taken Washington. The culture gaps open some nice spots for towns, but the flip risk can not be neglected...

The save is here

I plan to play on in the evening (in 10 hours) and take a look here before, so comments are welcome.

Spoiler :

Paul#42 · Mar 21, 2008

Okay, I'll start playing the second part of my set now.

Paul#42 · Mar 21, 2008

Second part was short.
I'd like to discuss our opportunities in burning America and our G&R-frequency.

There are quite some nice spots to settle in cultureless mongolian America.
Should we get some settlers out? Granary in NO? :confused:

I think we want peace before we G&R the next or do we need to risk getting dogpiled? We could G&R every turn of course. :dunno:

Here's the save

Here's the log:

Spoiler :

killercane · Mar 21, 2008

Celts are the mightiest demigod AI in history. 7500 gold? Do you know how much that would come in handy?

RE: keeping pop low. I am fairly sure that taking back larger cities gets you more street cred with the AI (they think they are losing worse). Not 100% though.

I would like to look at the save in more detail; otherwise I cant think of anything to comment on off the top of my head.

Andronicus · Mar 24, 2008

I'm back, will look at save tonight
I take it I'm up

Wish we had a force ready for taking America - looks like they might get dog piled. Unfortunately I dont see how we can get enough units in time :sad:

Andronicus · Mar 25, 2008

My first (quick) look at the save - questions

now we have no exploring curragh, do we (a) suicide the existing galleys trying to meet more friends or do we (b) wait for printing press to bring the contacts? (I'm in favour of sending them out - once we get rep they will just be a drain on our finances)

do we want a rop with America? - they will give 17g (restricts us in our options for dow in next 20 turns and might affect our rep if America destroyed before 20 turns, so I'll need persuading to vote yes on this one)

To squeeze another town W, SW of NO or not? Helps unit support costs, brings a BG into our control, clears a jungle tile, but costs us the 30 shields and pop which could otherwise help take the remains of America (I'll sit on the fence on this one)

Who next to G&R?
Options I think are Scandinavia, Babylon and Portugal (in 2 turns when PT expires). France, Celt, Mongol, Rome and Iroquois are too close and Spain still has 9 turns on PT (and is too close to Logrono, as perhaps are Portuguese) America are an option as well whilst they are being dogpiled - currently we have as many units, although are still weak to them. They have longbows, I think we need 3 cats first. (My vote goes to ASAP Vikes and Bab with Portuguese and America to follow within next 10 turns).

Republic becomes avail in 6 turns - do we revolt immed? (halts our army production in NO during anarchy and gives immed unit costs of 34gpt and likely to rise. CA2 shows an extra cost of 20gpt with approx 20% less corruption and thats not taking into account despotism's mp benefit)
Once we have markets rep will obviously be better, but I wonder if we might be better served building our military in despotism, taking American remains, then disbanding some military for markets etc.

Paul#42 · Mar 25, 2008

Andronicus said:
now we have no exploring curragh, do we (a) suicide the existing galleys trying to meet more friends or do we (b) wait for printing press to bring the contacts? (I'm in favour of sending them out - once we get rep they will just be a drain on our finances)

Yes, I should have done that. I wanted to keep one as a ferry but actually we don't need it. :hmm:

Andronicus said:
do we want a rop with America? - they will give 17g (restricts us in our options for dow in next 20 turns and might affect our rep if America destroyed before 20 turns, so I'll need persuading to vote yes on this one)

No rop, no gpt-deal, we need to be able to react without losing our face. :nono:

At least not for 17 g.

Andronicus said:
To squeeze another town W, SW of NO or not? Helps unit support costs, brings a BG into our control, clears a jungle tile, but costs us the 30 shields and pop which could otherwise help take the remains of America (I'll sit on the fence on this one)

I'd build settlers whenever our towns there grow too large or run out of usable tiles but we should be careful squeezing towns in there. I think min 6 of those 9 tiles should be without cultural overlap.

Andronicus said:
Who next to G&R?
Options I think are Scandinavia, Babylon and Portugal (in 2 turns when PT expires). France, Celt, Mongol, Rome and Iroquois are too close and Spain still has 9 turns on PT (and is too close to Logrono, as perhaps are Portuguese) America are an option as well whilst they are being dogpiled - currently we have as many units, although are still weak to them. They have longbows, I think we need 3 cats first. (My vote goes to ASAP Vikes and Bab with Portuguese and America to follow within next 10 turns).

I thought Vikings where a no-go because of their UU, but if we make peace within 4 turns again, our home islands should be save...

Whenever we do back-to-back G&R we should use the culturally stronger first so we end with little flip risk. Wait - I saw an aermican citizen in our towns. Are foreign citizens not switched to the gifted nation? That would reverse my above idea and we should first G&R the culturally weaker nation :crazyeye:

Andronicus said:
Republic becomes avail in 6 turns - do we revolt immed? (halts our army production in NO during anarchy and gives immed unit costs of 34gpt and likely to rise. CA2 shows an extra cost of 20gpt with approx 20% less corruption and thats not taking into account despotism's mp benefit)
Once we have markets rep will obviously be better, but I wonder if we might be better served building our military in despotism, taking American remains, then disbanding some military for markets etc.

One of the main advantages of Republic would be the chance to cash-rush units. However i doubt we'll have enough money to use that tool... :rolleyes:

CA2 is not precise regarding unit support iirc. We should double-check any info in that department...

I like the idea to stay despotic till we defeated America. :agree:

We should pile an army for Chikago and play G&R when we have some kind of SoD. Larger if America has rested due to peace and smaller if they are under pressure already and we need to hurry to get our share.

We should try to watch Americas movements, maybe we should send a slave for scouting. :old:

Have fun

killercane · Mar 25, 2008

Eyes on the prize: Chicago! Whatever gets us it the quickest, lets do it. On the turn we take it we do need all those galleys and cats back home coming over the seas to unload. Then we can suicide them anywhere, if suicide is even needed, and we will meet everyone.

Paul#42 · Mar 25, 2008

right. Don't sucide those galleys - rather build more of them!

Of course we can't build any while we G&R...

Andronicus · Mar 26, 2008

Playing now, above noted

Andronicus · Mar 26, 2008

And played The Save

530AD
Will G&R next turn when Nara ready
no suicidal galleys, no trades, warriors explore a little (leave American territory as worker blocks exploration of route to Chicago)

IT
Roman troops moving north (at war with Spain)
Americans move 2 LBs towards Washington (Mongols have about 20 units surrounding it edit - they are now at peace)
NO warrior -> warrior
Nara settler -> wealth
Ise cat -> cat

540AD
Celts now have 8817g, they also have quite large stacks heading to Rome
Settle Suo 2N of Nara -> starts temple
Find Thebes near Logrono - its Roman
G&R time, Babs have more culture than Vikes, so they go first
Gift 8 towns, dow and retake all (note no Bab citizens - all Carthaginian, Spanish or Portuguese)
2 resistors

IT
Celt troops continue west
Iroquois move a MW into NO's territory (now where is he going? OK they are at war with Rome)
We quell 1 resistor
DGM harbour -> galley (note we have no harbour on large island so no lux to DGM)

550AD
Celts now have 10017g and have switched to Monarchy
Buy French worker + 3g for 6gpt
Peace with Carthage gaining construction + 4g for 20gpt
Gift 8 towns to Scandinavia, dow amd retake ending last resistance
We are now 172g in bank at -13gpt

IT
More movement like before - American LBs appear headed for Spain
NO warrior -> spear
Vikings are building Magellans

560AD
Exploring warrior finds France west of Thebes.

IT
Witness Spanish cavalry beating up on Romans

570AD
Scout out the route to Chicago
MM to have Ise 5spt and NO 7spt 2/3, other 1/3 6spt - Ise has to share mBG or use mMountain
Gift 8 towns to Portugal (note Spanish galley in vicinity of our islands), dow and retake (3 resistors)

IT
Lots of AI movement, Rome appears to be doing badly (a conquistador wins so Spain may be in GA), no sign of any civs we are at war with
Ise cat -> cat
Carthaginians and Mongolians also building Magellans

580AD
Celts now have 12652g
Babs will give peace, but currency still too expensive (we can offer theoretical 5gpt + 129g but they wont accept)
We get an extra 17gpt freed up in 3 turns when Celt deal expires

IT
Same movements
America ally with Celts v Rome (hopefully send any spare units off to war)
Celts demand territory map + 24g - I cave (revenge will have to wait)
Portuguese knight comes from fog and burns Logrono to ground - we lose 3g
Another Portuguese knight eliminates our exploring warrior on the French border
America gives our scouting warrior the boot order (of course we leave)
2 American galleys appear off our island (I am suspicious)
NO spear -> archer
A resistor is quelled
Celts build Copernicus in Gergovia
Carth and Spanish are building Bach's

590AD
Sorry guts, just realised I forgot to switch a taxman back to scientist after determining our max gpt for trade purposes last turn (we still have 1 more turn for rep)
Hurry temples in Shimonoseki, New Nagoya, Toyama.
Workers have cleared a jungle, but its plain grass below

I stop here as I have to go to a meeting shortly and we need to decide our approach to peace treaties
- Babs and Vikes will give PT. Neither has any gold, neither will sell currency (1gpt + 88g gets close with Vikes)
- we have 2 turns left on 17gpt to Celts, hopefully we can afford currency when this expires
I suggest we hold off peace unless our island is threatened or we can get some gold
Its another 2 turns till Portuguese will talk, I doubt they will reach our capital in that time. Having destroyed 1 of our towns it is unlikely we will get very much out of them.

killercane · Mar 26, 2008

I asked about gold via capture and Bartleby was nice enough to answer with

Bartleby said:
It's in this thread.

So the gamble of gambles, IIRC we have something like 10-11 cities to G&R with Celts, and we can make 6000 gold or so doing it with their current huge treasury, and hope to hold on for 4 turns until they will give peace. I dont think we can wait to do it, as they will be industrial soon, we dont want to be swamped by cavalry and we need the gold to come in tune with Republic time.

Of course it risks all in that New Orleans is exposed for those few turns, but we can rush units like mad there to hold off a Celt stack. This is counting on the AI being bad at attacking us and that there is no huge stack around going to Rome. And that they wont be pissy and sneak attack us before we are ready. Lots to balance vs. 6000 gold (which will give us a massive army).

Paul#42 · Mar 26, 2008

Phew, this already reads adventurous. Quite a risk already with all those fast units, roads and rops out there... :shifty:

No problem with the lost turn on Republic - we don't need it now and we won't research anything after getting it anyway. :pat:

Pretty sure we will get construction, but what do we get from the others?
We need more contact! Whenever I wait for a certain tech in solo games they seem to have highest priority on this Printing Prtess and Democrazy stuff... :spank:

Are we finally getting something like an army in NO? :rolleyes:

Andronicus · Mar 26, 2008

Paul#42 said:
Pretty sure we will get construction,

We already have construction, it is currency we cant afford

Somehow we have to take a risk and play for the big prize
We are an age behind - cavalry are already out there and several AI are building Magellan's - rifles will come soon.

Already there is a Celtic cav under 2 muskets 2SE of NO
Large numbers of Celtic forces have been heading to fight Rome
Perhaps the greatest risk is that the Celts could afford multiple alliances against us (presumably those with active peace treaties would decline, but those without active peace treaties are those we have been too frightened of to G&R)

Celtic gold has decreased in last turnset and is now just 9848 (presumably 3000 paid to an unmet AI)
On G&Ring Celts we may wish to immed renegotiate peace (and pay some of our new gold) to Mongols, Iroquois and Spanish.

We cant spend the money on rushing an army until we are a republic - 1 turn to complete research, then 2 for anarchy - that's the earliest we could G&R Celts. Provided we rush Panama's temple next turn before revolting, we would have 12 towns to G&R.

Andronicus · Mar 26, 2008

OK, I checked the gold we wouild gain G&Ring Celts using the formula in the link above
I get only 2279g

Aceman101 said:
The formula would probably be (TotalGold)/(NumCities)*(0.5 for towns, 0.75 (more logical than 0.7) for cities, 1 for metropolises), with .5 rounding down

Since we would be taking towns the formula would be 9848/(17+12)*0.5, assuming current Celtic gold remains constant (unlikely), Celts still have 17 towns (may have more from Romans) and we have 12 towns to G&R
This gives 169g for the first
The remaining 9680g and 28 towns gives 172g for the second town retaken (9680/28*0.5)
3rd 9508/27*0.5=176
4th 9332/26*0.5=179
5th 9153/25*0.5=183
6th 8970/24*0.5=186
7th 8784/23*0.5=190
8th 8594/22*0.5=195
9th 8399/21*0.5=199
10th 8200/20*0.5=205
11th 7995/19*0.5=210
12th 7785/18*0.5=216
TOTAL gold gained 2279

Is this enough gain for the risk? Perhaps worth 2 peace treaties (Mongols and Iroquios) plus 500 shields of units?

I wish I have this wrong and we did get more like 6000g

Andronicus · Mar 26, 2008

Paul#42 said:
Are we finally getting something like an army in NO?

Current army around our capital
2 cats, next due in 3 turns, Ise making 4 turn cats (has no rax)
6 vet warriors (3 in NO, 1 in Ise, 2 near NO) also 2 reg warriors(1 just booted from America and 1 exploring the swamps and monitoring troop movements S of Lutitia)
1 vet spear
NO is producing 7spt for 3 turn 20 shield units. I have set it on archer but we may want to decide if we want a little more defence or even more cats (which would waste NO's rax)

killercane · Mar 26, 2008

Well I was figuring on 5% gold each time we gift and retake with the base of 12K, so 6K. Is the 5% recalculated every time you take a new city?

Paul#42 · Mar 27, 2008

Ah, we get money twice, once on retake and second on peace treaty.

I did not have time yet to figure out those numbers yet... :blush:

But pretty sure wer would lose our american forces and towns. :rolleyes:

I'm sure the Celts have quite some GW and cavs ready... :shifty:

Andronicus · Mar 27, 2008

Paul#42 said:
But pretty sure wer would lose our american forces and towns.
I'm sure the Celts have quite some GW and cavs ready...

Unless we want to (can afford to) risk a MA with Mongols and Iroquois - would mean committing to 20 turns war not just 4
(personally I think the shorter the war the better our chances of coming out with NO intact)

killercane · Mar 27, 2008

Well we have to make sure they dont have units around when we do it. Having them occupied in Rome smells like steak to me. So its now or never IMO. Be bold be bold, in all things be bold!

How do we make sure sure there arent any cavs around? Send warriors to investigate and disband if they look to be killed?

If we have ten units there in NO, surely they wont be able to take it in 4 turns. Attrition is our friend, but it would lessen our gold prospects.

SGOTM 13 - Spooks

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