SGOTM 13 - tao

I would suggest the first thing we do is keep playing. Grow our population and see what opportunities we have to either buy peace or buy alliances. I realize that if we bring in Portugal we will still have Spain to deal with, however Spain will be more inclined to settle with us once we have an ally.
 
I would suggest the first thing we do is keep playing.

I disagree. How are we going to win this game? If we don't know that then playing on is just very risky because we are likely to make mistakes in that case.

Grow our population and see what opportunities we have to either buy peace or buy alliances. I realize that if we bring in Portugal we will still have Spain to deal with, however Spain will be more inclined to settle with us once we have an ally.

This sure sounds like reasonble things to do. However, we are now at the point at which team klarius started doubling their territory in 3 turnsets, from 140 to 280 tiles, and our islands only allow 150 tiles or so. If we want to win this, we have to come up with a viable strategy now.

I'm afraid I don't see that strategy, but let's think a little bit more about it before we play.
 
I apologize in advance as this turned out to be quite long.

I didn't mean just charging ahead. Just one TS at a time, perhaps even just a few turns at a time. The problem seems to be that interest has waned as our situation has been revealed. We need to know who's still interested so we don't wait forever for someone who doesn't want or can't continue.

As far as Team Klarius, yes it looks like they are charging ahead. For all we know they may win and beat us all by a mile. Then again their luck may change and they get eliminated or slowed way down. Remember, the only victory condition is Space Race. Deity games can change by the turn. We just have to do the best we can, and not give up prematurely. There may be some glory in finishing 2nd best :(
(For encouragement, check out the graph, it doesn't look as if anyone else has had the same luck TK has.)

I don't know how Team Klarius did it, and it really doesn't matter, I don't think we're going to be able to go the same path.

This reminds me of PTW 75 with Scandinavia, even though it was PTW and not C3C, I think in general this will still apply. Yes, I guessed wrong and got behind early. If you remember the game, the start was on a small island. I was effectively trapped on the island, using amphibious denial to survive during the mid-game. When the other Civs fought each other, I was able to pick up some cities in the more undesirable areas. The key was getting areas that had or might have resources I would need to go Space Race. I eventually boosted my Literacy to 99% during the midgame (#1 of all Civs, and something not normally achieved). During this time, when I was still only one era behind, I completed a Great Library steal from India, after a ROP violation. That brought me closer, then my Literacy combined with the most beneficial civic ( as I learned them) enable me to catch up and surpass all the other Civs, including Arabia and Egypt who had 1/3 of the world each. Yes, it took me forever and I ended up losing the Space Race by 4 turns (at 2050AD) because of poor planning. I believe we can do it here. The lesson being, I had roughly the same amount of land we have now.

Specifics:

We need just enough units to deny any beachhead. The only thing to worry about here is if the Netherlands disbands their spearman and allows a spot to open. We need to be prepared for this and have an extra unit or two to kill off any that do land.

Build Harbors and improve all our tiles. With no fresh water, we won't grow beyond size 6 until we learn Construction. We will need to build some temples or use the Lux slider to get each city to size 6. Once all our cities are size 6, we may be able to hire some Scientists. I think Granaries can wait until we get Harbors and temples in each city.

Our research priority after Republic, should be Literacy, if we don't get it in trade. Once we get Literacy, Libraries should be our top priority.

We don't need to build to many Galleys, as with the Egyptian Caravels cruising around our Island they will probably just get sunk.

The biggest question is what to do about our current situation.
I would prefer to ally with Netherlands as they are #1 and appear to be way ahead of the others. This means waiting a couple of turns until we build up enough money to establish an Embassy with them.
Alternatively we ally with Portugal now, this should relieve some pressure off us. As soon as Spain will talk, we purchase peace with them.
We save our money and establish the embassy with Netherlands.
We continue our war until after the 20 turn alliance is over and see what Egypt may be willing to give.
I have never had a whole lot of luck with "fake" wars. Perhaps someone with more experience could guide us. As Babylon is the weakest, we could conceivably gift them a city, DOW on them, then capture the city and get a city from them when they settle. I am not particularly comfortable with this as I have never used it.

In most of the deity games I remember, if you don't get allies or settle quickly, all the AIs gang up on you and before you know it, your at war with everyone.
 
I didn't mean just charging ahead. Just one TS at a time, perhaps even just a few turns at a time.

That's ok, I'm just afraid that if we play along without a proper plan, we loose automatically.

I don't know how Team Klarius did it, and it really doesn't matter, I don't think we're going to be able to go the same path.

I can agree to playing further and forgetting about winning the competition against the other teams (though reluctantly).
I'm not fine with playing without a plan as to how to win the game. Anyway, if we drastically reduce our ambition, that should be a team decision.

We need to know who's still interested so we don't wait forever for someone who doesn't want or can't continue.

I absolutely agree. So team: who is still interested in this? I am, though I am at a loss for a good strategy right now.

The biggest question is what to do about our current situation.
I would prefer to ally with Netherlands as they are #1 and appear to be way ahead of the others. This means waiting a couple of turns until we build up enough money to establish an Embassy with them.
Alternatively we ally with Portugal now, this should relieve some pressure off us. As soon as Spain will talk, we purchase peace with them.
We save our money and establish the embassy with Netherlands.
We continue our war until after the 20 turn alliance is over and see what Egypt may be willing to give.
I have never had a whole lot of luck with "fake" wars. Perhaps someone with more experience could guide us. As Babylon is the weakest, we could conceivably gift them a city, DOW on them, then capture the city and get a city from them when they settle. I am not particularly comfortable with this as I have never used it.

I would prefer to ally with Portugal because we know where they are, so we know their neighbours, which is a diplomatic advantage. We don't know if the Dutch would be a good ally if the conflict escalates, because we don't know where they are.
 
A couple of suggestions that we should consider:

1. Think about using the Great Library steal to gain temporary tech parity
2. Keep sending out ships until the rest of the tribes are met. That will give us more trading partners and might allow us to find someone we might be able to tech trade with.
3. Build embassies with a couple of tribes and consider tech stealing to get stronger attacking units (the best we have now are archers)
4. We could buy a military tech from someone for lots of gpt and then try to steal another tech from them. If we get the tech great, if not and they declare we get the gpt back.
5. Remember that it's very easy for an AI to go wacko at this level and Team Klarius could go from top of the heap to extinct in a single turnset.
 
I'm definitely interseted in this, but don't have much spare time recently.

GL steal is very good of course, but we won't be able to perform it in this game (many tiles of sea around our islands)
Stealing techs is also not an option now (huge map + Demigod= very high steal costs), maybe like 100 turns later when we will have a reasonably developed empire.

It would be very handy to meet backward civ like Byzantines for trading, unfortunately no galleys crossed southern sea.
When we are in Republic income should become better. I'm wondering wahat is better: build markets and buy techs or build libs and research ourselves?

I'd say alliance with Portugal is better than one with Netherlands. I guess it's my turn to play?I can play some turns tomorrow in the evening and look what we are into.
 
I'm also still interested but also time short.

I think we need an alliance to prevent a complete AI dogpile on us.

GL steal may still be an option - after all we only have to hold the city one turn to get the techs. We'll have to keep an eye open on the possibility, but don't think it should be our one and only strategy.

We'll have to watch stealing techs after making a large gpt deal, isn't there something in the rules about breaking gpt deals?
 
I'm still interested. I see many good points made by all, so it's hard to add anything cogent. We may not be able to do much when our galleys sink almost the turn they set out. We needed the Great Lighthouse. BTW, who got that wonder? That would be nice to have. Anyway, I agree we need allies or peace in this war. Plan on coastal denial from here on out. I'm willing to try the hydrophobic tactic if that seems necessary. We need to take some risks or just give up. I'm not ready to give up yet.
 
This was the play order before we stopped. Will you be able to play Ignas?
If not, has anyone heard from Tao? I haven't seen a post from him in a long time.

ignas (up next)
tao
TheOverseer714
ThinkTank
denyd
Furiey
greatbeyond (just played)
 
Things are getting a bit beter: we are in Republic and just Constructon away from Middle Ages.

350AD doing good on blocking tiles; switch 2 scientists to taxman; Chardonnay to galley, Chabley to harbor, Terminus to galley; decide not to sign any alliances; switch Chariot builds to catapults; notice Republic has some trading value still - Portugal doesn't have it

IT takes 6 minutes

360AD notice Portugal doesn't know Byzantines; when Printing Press will come to play we might catch up a bit

IT: make a mistake - accidentally leave one tile empty and Egypt lands VetSpear, RegSword and VeWarChariot

370AD lose 4 chariots and 2 warriors but kill infidels. We now have veteran chariot and veteran warrior!

IT: Chardonnay galley->temple (for expansion to pick up 3food fish); Merlot Chariot->chariot

380AD Micromanage towns for no food or shield waste

IT: Sir, William of the Dutch has established an embassy in our capital city :D

390AD Netherlands are very far away, they have 2000+ gold

IT 10 mins; smoke a cigarrete and drink coffee

400AD we can now trade goods with the Netherlands, unfortunately they lack no luxes we have

IT: Cabernet Suavignon catapult->; Viognier catapult->galley;Merlot Chariot->warrior (for blocking tiles); Bordeaux catapult-> granary (for a perfect 2turn worker factory when in Republic)

410AD cat takes one hp of Egyptian galley;Egypt and Netherlands now have Navigation (they can trade for maps i see)

IT: Merlot warrior->chariot;

420AD

IT: Trantor temple->galley; Merlot warrior->worker

430AD: 412+68gpt+world map buys Republic from Netherlands (we were 20 turns from it) and then request them to leave. The Dutch of course don't want to leave and declare war; The Republic+11gpt+61gold for currency, Polytheism and HBR with Portugal;Polytheism for IW+7gold with byzantines;unfortunately Byzantines doesn't have Construction; set research to Construction via lone scientist and revolt to Republic

IT: The Dutch and Egypt are in Industrial Age and building Newtons

440AD: BTW we have iron under Burgandy and near Terminus

IT: Republic established

450AD

In Republic:

37 pop, 11 towns, +53 gpt, -28gpt for units, -11 gpt to other civs;
 
We are at war with Spain, Egypt and Netherlands and we are getting plenty of War Happiness (no lux needed so far). Fortunately we can succesfully block tiles from AI landing. Egypt and Netherlands in IA. Netherlands have around 6000 gold.

There are some tihings we should consider: we can make peace with Egypt for 30 gpt and probably get back our gpt by trading wines with them. Can trade route be broken?Egypt has Navigation. Losing reputation would be a huge blow.

When we should buyConstruction?ASAP?Or wait Byzantines to research it?I suggest buy now, gift Byzantines and look can Repulic buy us Byzantine free tech

What should we build? I suggest capital should build worker, 2 or 3 horses for bocking tiles and then aqua, market, lib. Bordeaux should build 3 turn workers without granary (it can get +7 food) for joining to cities for a long time. All other cities in our major island should complete their current projects and then start aqueducts. Aqueducts are priority (towns need to get to size 7 asap for more income and unit support). After aquas should go libs if we are going to self research.

Just block tiles carefully. After worker in capital completed stack all 6 workers for 1 turn mining.

After some civs learn Printing Press we should stop to discuss. Contact trading should get us back in game

Oh and get rid of dutch 2/4 spearmen in the south
 
Nice Job Ignas. You have managed to catch us up quite a bit. It's too bad we didn't know more Civs to trade with.

Breaking a trade route is easy with a resource, you just cut the roads leading to it. Though if your city sits on the resource, there isn't any way to cut it off. So if we trade wines plus GPT for a tech, we could cut the resource and perhaps not take a hit to our rep. I am not 100% sure if it would effect our rep.

We need to emphasize growth and Libraries. I don't see much chance of buying techs after we get close to catching up. It has been my experience that on Deity, the AI (the most advanced civs) won't trade current techs.
I would suggest researching Literature first as it will take half as long and will speed up all research after we start building Libraries.

I would suggest after we advance to the next age, we look at what would be more beneficial, trying to catch up techwise by researching the top tech line, or if a Great Library steal is possible, we will need to research just to Chivalry or possibly all the way to Military Tradition (dependent on the strength of unit required to kill the defenders.) The steal will depend on where the Gr Lib is and if we can get Galleys there.
Production:
Workers aren't as important the closer we get to having improved our island so we can quit producing them. Switch from Worker in Merlot to Military unit as it has a Barracks and will build Veteran units. Worker in Trantor isn't necessary at this time.
Move our Galley away from the enemy. Better to die exploring than than at the hands of the enemy. Kill off the Spearman on our island ASAP.
Minimal military units, just enough to deny an amphibious landing, keeping our costs down.
Aqueducts or Libraries, then happiness.
Tax Collector in Chablis should be working the Forest to complete the harbor in 1 turn and speed up Pop growth.

War or Peace?
I don't like the idea of paying 30 GPT for peace if we can get an ally for the same price. This may lead to several civs at war with each other which only benefits us by allowing us to make alliances for techs with little worry that the enemy can invade us, allow us to spend next to nothing on our defense, weaken our competition, and perhaps get a city or tech for peace.

Possible gambits: Make Peace with Egypt for as much of their gold as possible for GPT, then redeclare war or/and then Make peace with Spain for Litererature for GPT and then redeclare. This will mean a hit to our rep, unless we sign an alliance with someone who is at war with them, or we use the Gold to establish embassies/purchase alliances.

Finally, use Civ Assist to keep an eye on the overall picture.
 
You didn't get the point about workers. Yes, we don't need them for improving land but we need them for joining to cities. We need to get cities to size 12 ASAP for good economy.How could we do that fast? By joining workers. Bordeaux can grow one citizen every three turns and it should produce workers for a long time until cities are size 12. Even now we can join 2 workers to towns for improving economy (lower unit cost and more commerce from one extra citizen).

Trashing reputation is out of question. Without rep the game is lost.

GL steal is impossible - look how many sea tiles around us. Suicide galley should survive at least 3 turns at sea.

I'd say no alliances against Egypt. Egypt is a powerhouse on that continent and will easily eat Portugal with cavs and soon riflemen

We should go for Chivalry for Golden Age. And then rush to Astronomy for contacts (should send few caravels on the tune we learn Astro for meeting civs) and some warfare to expand our holdings.

tao seems to be away so TheOverseer714 is up.
 
Hi. I'm back, barely. I had some serious health trouble and spend a month in hospital. Now I am back home, slowly getting better and back to Civ III. I will over the weekend read everything that has happened and get back up to date.

You are not yet rid of me. ;)
 
I can swap and still play it this weekend, or I can let Tao have his turn, which I am inclined toward. I've been in the hospital that long several times in my life, so I can definitely sympathize. Welcome back Tao!
 
Just letting you know that I haven't forgotten this game. I've been busy with RL for the last week or so and haven't been as vocal as usual, but I'll be chipping in more now that the load is lighter.

Welcome back Tao, glad to hear that you're on the mend.
 
Welcome back tao, hope you are doing good.

We haven't progressed for 11 days. Maybe it's time to resume playing?

We are at war with 3 civs and getting plenty of war happiness(that's good no need for lux tax). We should probably stay at war as we can block tiles succesfully to keep AI from landing and they can't attack us before marines. Peace could only be considered if good trading opportunity occurs. Capital produces 10 spt and could build few more 3 turn horses for preventing AI landing and then infrastructure.

I guess we should advance to MA via buying construction from Portugese ( if we are lucky some AI will buy them against us into MA so we will get out of the payment) and see how far we are behind from not so advanced lAI's ike Portugal and France. We should gift Byzantines to MA and try to buy their free MA tech with Republic.

Our main goal is to get to Astronomy ASAP for enabling traveling seas (warfare to expand territory, more contacts, resources trading etc.). Chivalry will help to get GA and to boost income in order to get to Astronomy faster.

City improvements: aqueducts for growing to size seven, then marketplaces ( I think it is better and faster to buy our way at least to Astronomy, not to research ourselves).
Bordeaux after completes ist temple should build 3turn (it can get+7 food) workers for joining to towns purposes.

What do you think?

We should keep moving. Tao can you play?
 
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