SGOTM 13 - tao

Got it. Will play tomorrow (Tuesday).

I was kind of depressed at my seeming lack of progress, but then I looked at the results graph and realized I did no worse than anyone else.

I understand your feeling, this game is developing very slowly, but we're not boing bad at all compared to the others.

I'm not sure what catapulted Team Klarius so straight up, but I hope we're on a similar track.

Growth, implying a better cash flow, implying a better trade position and/or research potential; eventually, war, and more territory and technology through that.

It would be interesting to anaylize the terrirory graph of team klarius and see if we can deduce from that if and when they went to war. I will try to do that tonight.
 
What might have happened is a war with Portugal or Spain with an alliance with the other one. Then signing peace and getting a city from the opponent.

As far as I can tell we've done very little wrong, so let's just keep plugging away.
 
As far as I can tell we've done very little wrong, so let's just keep plugging away.

I agree. What comes too mind for future strategy are phony wars in order to reduce the tech pace. Or more specifically, reduce the tech pace on one continent, so that we can become a trader from one continent to the other. I think we need to know more from the map before we can do this.
 
The Egyptian/Spanish/Portuguese/French continent is huge and we're a loooonnnnng way from even circumnavigating it. Team Klarius must have had some success in getting a foothold there, going by their territory graph. No wonder, Klarius himself is a freak of nature in the whole XOTM universe at pounding the AI. I'd say a war for us is a way to get something from peace negotiations, maybe some tech crumbs from the big table. I think we're safe from counterattack until Caravels come along, then we are bait for some very large sharks. Good luck playing, Thinktank, maybe you can get a galley across the big pond, I sure couldn't.
 
I did a count of our territory with wine land settled according to plan, after the palace jump, and our original island with 2 cities ("New" Trantor and Seldon) after a culture expansion, so each city uses the full fat cross. I counted 152 used tiles. It would be possible to have 4 more sea tiles by keeping 3 cities at the home island, these would be Seldon, a city 1S of Trantor, and a city 1N of Terminus. But these cities would be low on shields.

BTW, in the original dotmap, red dot (south of the horses misses a whale that is 2S, it should probably move 1SE.

Taking the number 152 and then looking at the territory graph of team klarius it looks like they kept expanding right after that, meaning at another landmass. (The flattening at the curve around turn 140 is likely the palace jump.) How did they do that???? Should we be thinking about using techniques from the hydrophobia SGOTM??? Gift a city or two, reconquer them, then sue demanding a city on another landmass?

Good luck playing, Thinktank, maybe you can get a galley across the big pond, I sure couldn't.

Thanks, will surely try.
 
We are in crappy situation that's for sure.

We can get more income by doing this: swap Terminus from working fish to oyster and then Trantor from hill to fish (Trantor will grow one turn faster and we get +1 beaker).Also we have 3 roaded bgs and are working just 2 in Winelamd so make sure we work all three (by doing this we will get +1 more beaker).

When we have 3 workers stack them for 1 turn roading. I also think better switch Merlot to granary (we need more growth badly), it could produce worker every 5 turns at size five. Also switch Riesling to temple, so after expansion it could work 2 fishes and a whale.

It's probably time to jump palace after settler in Trantor compoletes as there are more towns and pop in Wineland than in our original island so palace there is more beneficial. What do you all think?

ThinkTank do you use civassist2? It will help you to jump palace

Wars between AI's could be very beneficial for us though we are not at that comfortable situation to start them now (no money). Later we should make some alliances tied with peace treaties to get war happiness if AI breaks a deal.
 
ThinkTank do you use civassist2? It will help you to jump palace

Yes I use CAII. I will look at the MM issues you mention. Unfortunately we get unexpected visitors this evening. I can play on Thursday though.
 
I've played. Summary: we have 1 new town, 2 settlers on the way. We met the Byzantines, and that opened up trades: we traded for CoL, Bronze Working, Warrior Code, Mysticism, Masonry and Mathematics. We are now running lone scientist on republic. Palace jump set up to occur in 4 turns, when Trantor will settler-abandon.

The turnlog.

Spoiler :


Turn 0: 150 BC

Follow the MM notes by ignas:
Swap Terminus from working fish to oyster and then Trantor from hill to fish (Trantor will grow one turn faster and we get +1 beaker). Settler in 3 in Trantor now goes to 5, though in fact in 4 with the shields at the growth turn.
Make sure we work all roaded tiles in wineland (get +1 more beaker).
Switch Merlot to granary.
Switch Riesling to temple, so after expansion it could work 2 fishes and a whale.

IBT - zzz

Turn 1: 130 BC

Not much, CoL in 22.

IBT

Galley sinks. Trantor grows to 3.

Turn 2: 110 BC
At Trantor, change hills for coastal rocks for an extra trade, settler still in 2, CoL now in 19.

IBT
Bordeaux: worker -> galley.

Turn 3: 90 BC
Not much, CoL in 18.

IBT
Trantor: settler -> settler.
Chardonnay: worker -> harbor.

Turn 4: 70 BC
CoL now back to 21 due to pop reduction.
MM Trantor for palace jump on the next settler completion, which is in 10 turns. It has 4 food in the box, so to complete the settler on growth to 2 it needs the cow for 3 turns and then the hill for 7 turns.

IBT
Galley sinks. Our majestic fleet now consists of 1 curragh and 1 galley.

Turn 5: 50 BC
Viognier founded -> worker.
Our curragh spots a red border W of France/Egypt.
Some roads complete, reshuffle tiles, CoL now in 17.

IBT
Terminus: settler -> galley

Turn 6: 30 BC
Not much, CoL in 16.

IBT

Turn 7: 10 BC
At Trantor, switch cow to hill to let the settler complete on growth to 2. Assign cow to Terminus.
CoL in 15.

IBT
Egypts start Sistine, Leonardos and Knights Templar. Guess they should read that Wonder Addiction article.

Turn 8: 10 AD
We meet the Byzantines. They don't have pottery, which implies they also don't have map making. They don't have any money.
They have BW, Masonry, WC and Myst on us (possibly more). They do not want to give anything for pottery.
But they also do not have CoL or Lit! This opens up an interesting trade. We have CoL in 14 at 100% sci.
Turns out we can buy it from the French for 15 gpt (best buy). This is about the same money as 14 turns at 100% sci,
since at lone scientist we are doing 22 gpt. Since the plan was to do a min run on republic anyway, I figure I should make the deal and cash in on CoL and MM with the Byz so I do.
I then trade with the Byz: CoL + 5gpt gives us Myst, Masonry and WC. When I am investigating a subsequent deal with the Byz, map making plus some money for math and bronze working, I missclick and initiate end of turn. :(

IBT - zzz

Turn 9: 30 AD
Luckily, the deal with the Byz is still on but they are now offering a bit less, meaning that they are researching mapmaking, which is not surprising as it will give them their UU. Hiring some temporary tax collectors I figure that we can make this deal: MM +4gpt for Mathematics and Bronze working. But we are only doing 2 gpt at lone scientist. I find the extra 2 gpt: in Chardonnay, a shield from a BG is corrupted anyway so I exchange the BG for a coastal tile. At Terminus I temporarily exchange the cow for the fish. I make the deal
and switch back the cow to Terminus. We are now doing -1gpt with 7 in the treasury.

IBT
Seldon: galley -> galley

Turn 10: 50 AD
Not much.

Notes to next player: near Merlot, there is a galley with 2 settlers.
Trantor is set up to settler abandon in 4 turns. In order for the palace to jump to Merlot, take care to fill it with sufficient units then.


The Save
 
:goodjob: Way to go, Thinktank. We needed a good break in this game, and the trades getting us a jump in tech helps immensely. Hopefully there are some civs beyond the Byzantines to talk to, since our suicide ships are truly suicidal. Must be dropping off the end of the earth.....
 
I looks like we will be confined to the two Islands we have now unless some more vacant land is located to the east/south of us. I think our next exploratory Galleys should head in those two directions, there is a lot of sea to the south east.

It is hard to fathom why the Byzantines were so far behind in Techs as they were clearly reachable by the other more advanced Civs. Possibly they were granted extra techs during game design? I am wondering (again) if it would be wise to establish diplo relations so we can engage in some "fake" wars. Is this how Klarius got so far ahead in territory, or did he settle the island off the coast of Portugal first, blocking expansion?

Graph gazing the power chart seems to indicate that the Byzantines are/were at war with someone. My Guess would probably be Either Egypt or France. Perhaps this explains why they were behind in Techs?

Civ Assist II seems to point towards learning The Republic as quick as possible to trade it to three other Civs. As a Fall back we could pick a cheap tech and trade with just the Byzantines. I hope when we do get Iron Working we have Iron on one of our islands!

Once we get our last Settlers in place on Wineland, I would imagine we should grow our cities as fast as possible ( to speed up research) and not worry about a military. I know it may be inviting disaster, but at this time I don't see how else we are going to catch up.

The list of Civs we have yet to meet is long. we have only met 6 of 29

denyd (up next)
Furiey (on-deck)
greatbeyond
ignas
tao
TheOverseer714
ThinkTank (just played)
 
Graph gazing the power chart seems to indicate that the Byzantines are/were at war with someone. My Guess would probably be Either Egypt or France. Perhaps this explains why they were behind in Techs?

This might well be the case, as I observed a lot of Byz military running around, so they might have been choking themselves in units, having no money to spare for research.

Civ Assist II seems to point towards learning The Republic as quick as possible to trade it to three other Civs.

Right now we are doing lone scientist on republic at -1gpt (because we are paying 24 gpt for the tech deals I did), so we don't have any money for that. Republic is 1500 beakers, so we would have to do at least 30 bpt in order to be faster.

As a Fall back we could pick a cheap tech and trade with just the Byzantines. I hope when we do get Iron Working we have Iron on one of our islands!

I agree, we should try any deal we can make. We can fake positive gpt by turning all our citizens to tax collectors, buy a tech, sell it and get our gpt back, and then putting our citizens to work again.

What I am really worried about is that we will get so far behind that trading will not be possible anymore. I think we need to reduce the tech pace, at least in some area of the world, in order to create a market for our tech brokering. That would imply starting some phoney wars. Since astronomy and navigation may not be so far away as we hope, we likely should do that right now. And we should likely do that to the complete world as we know it now, since it's the guys near us that we want to arrive at astronomy and navigation as late as possible. I would say set up a war between Spain and Portugal, and Egypt vs. France and Byzantines, since we have gpt deals with France and Byzantines, and Egypt appears to be most powerful. Unfortunately, it will take some time and/or trading before we have the money to make the alliances necessary for that.

First priority now is to build our economy, by growing, and jumping the palace.
 
I am back from a very short notice business trip and really hope to participate more active in the future and in our quest towards the top of civilization!

Edit/add: but the server with the saves does not want to deliver any files currently ...
 
Another break in ThinkTanks' turnset: firstly it was suicide curragh who reached other continent and now the backward Byzantines :goodjob: .He seems to be lucky.

Agree on phony wars. We are doing min research and should accumulate some cash after more towns grow and palace is jumped to Wineland.

Maybe team Klarius got to Astronomy very fast and started warfare to get more land. This is very possible as at 1000BC they had already 4 contacts and probably were in a good trading position.
 
Tao, I probably won't be able to get to this until Sunday, if you can take it between now and then please do so.

As for wars, getting land connected neighbors to war is the optimum. They'll burn more units that way and not add to their navy which would be a future threat to us.

We've still got a lot of folks to meet and hopefully at least a couple will allow for tech trading. However, once they've all met, unless we've expanded, keeping up on techs will be very difficult.
 
Tao, I probably won't be able to get to this until Sunday, if you can take it between now and then please do so.
I couldn't take the save till as the server is still down. And I will be busy for the rest of Saturday.
 
I thought I'd be playing tonight but the GOTM extension allowed me to go for my Histographic win and after playing from 1400 AD to 2002 AD (not sure how many turns, but know it's at least 200) since 1pm today, my brain is Civ fried. So this will have to wait until tomorrow.

FYI: For those interested, I ended up launching with as the Iroquois were completing the last 2 parts. India also had 8 but didn't acquire Robotics on the IBT.
 
I don't think my machine is going to allow me to continue with this game. I loaded up the save, checked the cities for MM and the AI for trade chances and then hit return. My IBT was 17 minutes. I exited the game. The IBT will only get worse for me once across sea trades is available. Trade route calculations are very time consuming. I was following an SG on an Ultra-Huge map with the IBT lasting over 8 hours and am afraid this one will get in the 1-2 hour range once the IA arrives.

If it's ok with the team, I'd like to continue to add comments and suggestions. I'm quite disappointed as this will be the first SGOTM that I have not completed. Once again sorry for the early exit.
 
Thanks for the bump ignas, things are a rather busy at the moment and I won't be able to play until the weekend. Do you want to grab it first tao?

I also hope from deynd's post that my PC will handle the save, I suppose I'll just have to find something else to do in the IBT.
 
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